Discipline and Holy WotLK Talent Preview and discussion. - Page 47

Ellyh · 09/11/08, 4:44 AM

Some good explanation from Ghostcrawler on how the process is working. We may not always like it but he does have a point and many other classes are in the same boat of having been run over by the nurf supertanker. I hate to say it but it is beta and once they get to the "Numbers" phase of balancing they seem to like to throw stuff out there and see what works and what doesn't so things can get kind of hairy.

Well put.

We understand how it can be frustrating to see something you liked about a class changed or nerfed. Honestly. I love all my characters too.

I don't even mind if you take a thread or two to vent and get it out of your system. But try not to let it spill over into every post on the thread, especially in those where people are trying to be constructive. We *need* feedback. That is why we have a beta forum.

If you disagree, by all means, let us know. The game isn't on the shelf yet -- and even if it was, we could STILL change things. But only specifics are going to help. Declarations that we hate or don't know how to play the class aren't something we're going to spend a lot of time reading.

There is no separate balance team. These changes were all made by the consensus of the class designers. We made a big push to try and balance the power of each talent and spell, which means changing those that seemed over-budgeted or too powerful. I am almost certain that in some cases we took things too far. That is going to happen. As we continue to iterate on the design, and especially now that we are starting to get some real numbers back from end-game PvE and PvP content, you're going to continue to see a lot of churn.

Tainter · 09/11/08, 4:54 AM

Hmm, now what to spec for PvP?

The previous shadowform, horror, fade combo was pretty nice and making shadow different and interesting again.
Disc was getting some more mana and some of its other strengths were generally improved on.

But in the current build Shadow and Disc look very much like before. Aside from their power (or weakness) I'm mainly concerned about the fact that those two trees don't look very interesting anymore.

Maybe that would make Holy more appealing. I suppose I'd try it out. Its survival thingies were widely untouched, it seems to have the highest output, mana efficiency and scaling. So unless other classes' interrupts get more scary, which I sadly suspect they might, then it could be fine.

Kaerellen · 09/11/08, 5:03 AM

I really don't get the justification for these changes.

Can those in beta confirm that sustainability and mana efficiency was an issue (since the downranking nerf) before these changes went through? Is the change to Serendipity enough to counter said issue now that IHC has been nerfed as well?

Disc is a shell of even its arguably useful prior self.

I recognize this isn't helpful, but I look at the changes that druids are getting (and apparently keeping), and the design philosophy for that class just seems completely different: their ability to heal is being changed in a meaningful and beneficial way, while even our previously good talents are retreads of item procs we're using now (Serendipity = 2pc T5, Test of Faith = CSoK, etc.).

I know this is still beta and things are still subject to change, but my hope for the class is waning precipitously. There remain issues with the talent trees that have been present since vanilla WoW that are still not being resolved. Disc is an absolute mess. Holy feels like it's taking 1 step forward and 3 steps back with every update.

What is needed right now aren't vague reassurances that change is still likely. I feel like it's much easier to give specific feedback to the class designers if we have a solid notion of what they intend for each tree, rather than trying to guess it on our own. I was under the impression that Disc was about damage absorption and pro-active, buff-based healing, but I'm less certain of that after these changes. I thought that Holy was about major throughput and decent sustainability, but that doesn't seem quite correct either. It feels like we're operating on a limited set of data, and when assumptions are made as to how to approach/apply/utilize that data, said assumptions are invariably incorrect.

Thorongil · 09/11/08, 5:38 AM

Originally Posted by Tainter

Hmm, now what to spec for PvP?

The previous shadowform, horror, fade combo was pretty nice and making shadow different and interesting again.
Disc was getting some more mana and some of its other strengths were generally improved on.

But in the current build Shadow and Disc look very much like before. Aside from their power (or weakness) I'm mainly concerned about the fact that those two trees don't look very interesting anymore.

Maybe that would make Holy more appealing. I suppose I'd try it out. Its survival thingies were widely untouched, it seems to have the highest output, mana efficiency and scaling. So unless other classes' interrupts get more scary, which I sadly suspect they might, then it could be fine.

From a healing PoV I think I´d specc into something like 37/34/0 The ability to get blessed resilience and healing power from Holy while still being able to go quite deep in Disc seems very attractive, nevertheless it´s just a first thought on the topic from my side so it might need some second consideration. Especially going deep disc could be very viable too, since Penance and the improvements to Shield should yield massive benefits (especially efficiency-wise) at the cost of our own survivability (since you have to drop BR for it).

Originally Posted by Kaerellen

I really don't get the justification for these changes.

Can those in beta confirm that sustainability and mana efficiency was an issue (since the downranking nerf) before these changes went through? Is the change to Serendipity enough to counter said issue now that IHC has been nerfed as well?

Disc is a shell of even its arguably useful prior self.

I recognize this isn't helpful, but I look at the changes that druids are getting (and apparently keeping), and the design philosophy for that class just seems completely different: their ability to heal is being changed in a meaningful and beneficial way, while even our previously good talents are retreads of item procs we're using now (Serendipity = 2pc T5, Test of Faith = CSoK, etc.).

I know this is still beta and things are still subject to change, but my hope for the class is waning precipitously. There remain issues with the talent trees that have been present since vanilla WoW that are still not being resolved. Disc is an absolute mess. Holy feels like it's taking 1 step forward and 3 steps back with every update.

What is needed right now aren't vague reassurances that change is still likely. I feel like it's much easier to give specific feedback to the class designers if we have a solid notion of what they intend for each tree, rather than trying to guess it on our own. I was under the impression that Disc was about damage absorption and pro-active, buff-based healing, but I'm less certain of that after these changes. I thought that Holy was about major throughput and decent sustainability, but that doesn't seem quite correct either. It feels like we're operating on a limited set of data, and when assumptions are made as to how to approach/apply/utilize that data, said assumptions are invariably incorrect.

I simply think that many got spoiled to a certain extent by some of the awesome talent designs that were handed to us. But seeing it realistically I think the nerfs that are being made to the Holy Tree at the time being are somewhat necessary. Disc is another topic. I do agree with it being a mess. It seems like Blizzard itself doesn´t really know what to do or in which direction to head the Tree (PvE, PvP, Support, Preventing Damage, etc...). However, Holy in its prior form was a throughput and regeneration monster. Don´t forget that Holy has very good spells for nearly any situation given. You wouldn´t need any other healers, if a priest could do anything with the highest efficiency along with the highest throughput.

Shan · 09/11/08, 6:57 AM

2. Rapture Changed, not clear how.

Previously it returned 25% of the amount absorbed by Divine Aegis and PW:S as mana. It's a huge nerf.

Vitalay · 09/11/08, 9:53 AM

RE: Rapture

Rank 5
Causes you to gain up to 2.5% of your maximum mana each time you heal with Greater Heal, Flash Heal or Penance, or damage is absorbed by your Power Word: Shield or Divine Aegis. Increasing the amount healed or absorbed increases the mana gained.

This reads like a variable water shield type effect on shield based on your maximum mana pool. Am I incorrect?

That seems more like a buff. To quote a conversation from AIM on the subject:

Previously, Shield was going to be free no matter what (except dispel). Now, it has the capacity to be better than free, but with a chance that it will cost 50% of its mana cost.

Sarjin · 09/11/08, 10:06 AM

I can't say I'm happy with these changes, nor do I think they are all warranted.

*Twin Disciplines was powerful, but in no way overpowered. It seems part of a Blizzard effort to put attractive 5 point T1 talents in each tree. In comparison, Warriors get Cruelty, 5% crit. May not quite be 5% damage, though including the procs and crit modifiers they get, it likely wouldn't be far off. Rogues get a mirror of this in Malice, as well as Relentless Strikes and Dual Wield Spec. I'd argue that DW spec is actually even more powerful, given it improves damage of the offhand by a full 50%. Assuming equal DPS weapons, this means a rough 16,67% increase in white damage, and for Mutilate Rogues, a 16,67% increase in their Mutilates as well. Compare this to 5% overall, the talent was hardly out of line. Making it act only on instants means it is severely underpowered.

*Improved Holy Concentration change is bad. I think most of us were not surprised to see it nerfed, given that it seemed a tad powerful in the previous state. That said, this takes things to another extreme. The proc chance is way down, and the haste benefits are only 1/6th of what they were before (half the bonus for a third of the spells). The old version of IHC looked like a much needed mechanic/healstyle changing talent, something sorely needed for holy given the lack of this elsewhere. This change makes it into a slightly higher proc chance clearcast with a Scarab of the Infinite Cycle proc attached.

*Serendipity change is good, and is one I advocated a while back already. There is one "if" clause for this however, and that's the additional of that hypothetical 'Heal' spell as replacement for our current GHeal rank 1, an efficient smaller heal. If we are stuck killing bugs with nukes (max rank GHeal), it's a pretty bad nerf. That said, that heal is sorely needed; I just hope we don't have to wait for Fury of the Maelstrom (or whatever the third expansion might be called) before we get it, like the targetting for CoH took a full expansion...

*Test of Faith change is over the top again. Something which actually was a nice and noticable improvement for those emergency situations, will be far less interesting now. 6% heal and crit, will average out to less than 9% increase in total throughput. (Not to mention that considering these numbers, I'd rather have 9-12% healing instead of the low crit chance increase) On top of that we normally don't want targets to drop below 50% all that often, so the amount of time targets get healed <50% will tend to be minimized. Overall I feel that the boost is not noticable enough for healing in a real jam, whereas the 'sustained' increase in output is underwhelming considering the points investment this deep in the tree.

*Empowered Healing is merely a fix which took them way too long to apply.

*I still am not much of a fun of a longish cooldown ability like Divine Hymn, though it seems a bit of a step in the right direction. I'd rather have something as gameplay altering as Nourish though.

Overall, the thing which annoys me most about the patch is the removal of the fun factor with these changes. As it is, Holy is severely lacking in interesting new mechanics and styles; Divine Hymn is a cooldown, and aside from an 'oh shit' button in Guardian Spirit, the only thing which had strong potential to change our playstyle was IHC. The nerf to proc chance, but especially the nerf to the haste effect means that from a playstyle altering talent, it becomes like an occasional trinket proc. I saw our class as needing some changes but headed in the right direction lately, with Holy in decent state and Shadow headed in the right direction. These changes, even if they might as Ghostcrawler put it get balanced again, do change this considerably, when adding to this the already existing problems, I'm quite concerned about things:

-The itemization team seems absolutely clueless on how to design our gear. (Yet somehow our crafted tailoring gear does seem nice. Deja vu?)

-Our overall viability took a bit of a hit. I'm still waiting for the utility which was promised to classes lacking them. Rogues got these, but we are still waiting. Aside from getting this utility, our previous claims to fame were being the most powerful and flexible healers. This power advantage was essentially gone for the most part in TBC (aside from being able to shine in select fights due to CoH), whereas the other strong point in the past two years has been our flexibility. We are still flexible, but each expansion the other healers get more well rounded. They tend to get new tools to shore up existing weaknesses (Flourish, Nourish, Rebirth, etc.) whereas we get some new buttons, but currently not something which truly adds to our style. Not that I mind other healers being more well rounded instead of a one trick pony, but if other healers get more well rounded, get powerful talents, and have utility (even in the non stacking world of WotLK), then we are lacking overall in my eyes. To me it seemed holy would be a bit of a healing 'rogue' with the highest output, but with these changes, I severely doubt that's still the case.

-Blizzard has had several of these Quality of Life changes to improve the fun of other classes. Other classes get strong 5 pointers (Rogues especially), get talents moved to allow taking of 51 pointers (Ruin), get talents made baseline (tons of examples throughout history) and get mechanics removed which are considered to be not fun. On the flip side, Twin Disciplines got badly nerfed, we are still stuck with Divine Spirit, Meditation, Inner Fire. And Koraa's rigid adherence to his views and his ego without actually listening to reason, rather preferring to make moronic baseless comparisons, of course.

I really hope we are getting some changes, because while I hate going on in some emo rage, the talents like IHC and Test of Faith were the few things to look forward to as Holy Priest since compared to other classes (notably Druids, in my eyes) things looked rather underwhelming. With these talents also nerfed into oblivion...

Tainter · 09/11/08, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Sarjin

Overall, the thing which annoys me most about the patch is the removal of the fun factor with these changes. As it is, Holy is severely lacking in interesting new mechanics and styles [...]

That's exactly my gripe too. I've got no problem with them fine-tuning things down that are deemed too powerful. I'm willing to wait and see how the power balance pans out. But currently it looks as if Priest playing experience is going to be stagnant. I haven't been paying close attention to the other classes, but maybe I should take a look around, see how my alts are doing in regards to the changed/improved playstyle and fun factor.

I'd welcome comments on wether the beta testers feel that other classes changed more or not.

Of course the current patch isn't final and there was (and will be) a lot of complaining (and changing hopefully), but it's taken a turn for the worse. There were quite a few interesting ideas throughout the alpha and beta so far, but most of them seem to have disappeared. I very much hope still that one of trees will get some mobility improvement and some mechanic that's not simply shadow damage, healing or mana regeneration.

On a sidenote, is Divine Hymn instant, cast or channeled?

Sarjin · 09/11/08, 11:11 AM

It appears to be a 1.5 second cast currently. Quite open for interruption if we got a cast time slowing debuff on us I suppose.

Vitalay · 09/11/08, 11:20 AM

Open for interruption even without a slowing debuff.

A good tweak would be to place it in a different school from Holy. It would be nice if we could pseudo-bait with this spell against rogues/warriors.

Zorath · 09/11/08, 11:22 AM

About Divine Hymn.
mmo-champion lists it as this:

"You recite a Holy hymn, causing the closest 10 enemies within 0 yards to become incapacitated for 20 sec., and heals the closest friendly targets within 0 yards for 4506 over 6 sec. 20% of base mana, 1.5 sec cast, 3 min cooldown"

Has anyone on the beta forum asked Blizzard about the lack of "new","fun" ways to play a Holy Priest or a Shadow priest.
Im playing holy on live and my Girlfriend Shadow and at the moment i dont see that much changes coming for us in the expansion. It will pretty much go on as it as done for the last 2 years.

(Well apart from the fact that we had to wait a year before CoH became useful)

Sarjin · 09/11/08, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Zorath

Has anyone on the beta forum asked Blizzard about the lack of "new","fun" ways to play a Holy Priest or a Shadow priest.
Im playing holy on live and my Girlfriend Shadow and at the moment i dont see that much changes coming for us in the expansion. It will pretty much go on as it as done for the last 2 years.

(Well apart from the fact that we had to wait a year before CoH became useful)

It's been brought up a lot of times, and especially today. We probably get some more posts from Koraa about how we needed balance, and that Test of Faith had to be nerfed so it was more in line with Molten Fury. It's indeed currently my biggest worry with WotLK. Metaphorically, it's as if my PC got a new bluetooth adapter I use once in a blue moon, while the other classes got revamped into an iMac...

Vitalay · 09/11/08, 11:30 AM

I think there is a dearth of creativity, right now, regarding good new healing priest abilities in general--holy or disc.

Divine Aegis was a good and new idea, as is Guardian Spirit (though less useful).

If only there were a good place to make proposals that were actually listened to, I'm sure more great ideas would be posted.

Tainter · 09/11/08, 11:30 AM

Unfortunately the only other school we have is Shadow. So unless they do that it will remain Holy. The chances of anything like that happening are slim to none.

Which spell line is it under in our spell book? (It better be Disc or Shadow Priests are going to be angry...)

Sarjin · 09/11/08, 11:33 AM

Much to Shadow's chagrin, it's indeed Holy. =P

Zorath · 09/11/08, 11:40 AM

Which spell line is it under in our spell book? (It better be Disc or Shadow Priests are going to be angry...)

mmo-champion has it listed under holy spells. I have no idea of knowing how accurate that is. but atleast that what i can see now.

Divine Aegis was a good and new idea, as is Guardian Spirit (though less useful).

Yeah i agree, divine aegis was a new idea. Atleast something, though our problem is that we have 2 healing trees. While other healers get all the new cool stuff, we basicly only get 50% or so.

I also wanted something shiney, something that would make others go .. "ohh thats a holy priest". But well that might be only me and not super needed overall. Maybe if they would make the animation of Guardian Spirit last the duration, maybe that would make me a little happy atleast.

Supermerkicus · 09/11/08, 11:45 AM

I've been following other class changes because I have several other alts and have been taking advantage of the RoF program, and my overall 'excitement' meter for what my characters are getting has Priests sitting at the bottom of the heap for WoTLK.

My Rogue is getting his poison skill removed because it's annoying (cool change), but my Priest's Inner Fire charges are here to stay - Koraa gave a crappy explanation which was logically refuted by many beta testers with math but he simply stuck his fingers in his ears and said 'whatever noobs I know what's best' - very frustrating.

I really expected Priests to go up from where they were, rather than have a bunch of things that didn't need to be nerfed (twin disciplines, imp. inner fire, renewed hope) get nerfed for some reason. My Shaman wasn't nerfed badly at all compared to the overall power gain I'm getting in WoTLK.

There's a definite sense of "..wtf?" that I feel and I think many other players feel - some point out that 'it's just beta' but I think there's a certain validity to the feeling that if every Priest player just shut up that the 'it's just beta' could easily turn into 'it's just live' with very little changes.

I AM looking forward to the new Divine Hymn, though.

Isin · 09/11/08, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Supermerkicus

I've been following other class changes because I have several other alts and have been taking advantage of the RoF program, and my overall 'excitement' meter for what my characters are getting has Priests sitting at the bottom of the heap for WoTLK.

My Rogue is getting his poison skill removed because it's annoying (cool change), but my Priest's Inner Fire charges are here to stay - Koraa gave a crappy explanation which was logically refuted by many beta testers with math but he simply stuck his fingers in his ears and said 'whatever noobs I know what's best' - very frustrating.

I really expected Priests to go up from where they were, rather than have a bunch of things that didn't need to be nerfed (twin disciplines, imp. inner fire, renewed hope) get nerfed for some reason. My Shaman wasn't nerfed badly at all compared to the overall power gain I'm getting in WoTLK.

There's a definite sense of "..wtf?" that I feel and I think many other players feel - some point out that 'it's just beta' but I think there's a certain validity to the feeling that if every Priest player just shut up that the 'it's just beta' could easily turn into 'it's just live' with very little changes.

I'm kind of exactly where you are. I actually just got my beta key last night, and started the transfer process on all my 70s (rogue, warlock, priest), and by the time I finished browsing the recent priest forums and patch notes, I really no longer have any desire to even play my priest in the beta. Compared to the big changes coming to the rogue and warlock trees, and how their gameplay and strategies will change in exciting ways, I'm just completely bored by both the shadow and holy changes, especially after the nerfs last night.

It just seems to me that both Shadow and Holy are going to play pretty much exactly like they do currently in live.

Beans · 09/11/08, 12:31 PM

I was so excited when I got my beta key a month ago, but that excitement has waned almost to nil (I'm having more fun beta testing another game honestly). I have to force myself to log on recently. They don't seem to know themselves what to do with the discpline tree, and at times, I don't think they know what to do with shadow as far as pvp either. This new batch of changes seems contrary to their old baby steps kind of changes. It's more of let's throw a grenade, watch how things fall, then react and put humpty dumpty back together again.

I'm just afraid that they'll leave gaping holes on the egg that won't be fixed until the expansion to be released 2 years from now

Time will tell, in the meantime, maybe I can force myself to make a premade and test, since I do love my priest (she's just gotten stale lately).

cruumash · 09/11/08, 12:36 PM

"You recite a Holy hymn, causing the closest 10 enemies within 0 yards to become incapacitated for 20 sec., and heals the closest friendly targets within 0 yards for 4506 over 6 sec. 20% of base mana, 1.5 sec cast, 3 min cooldown"

Might make priests the best flag cappers in AV. =)

Test of Faith now increases healing by 2/4/6% (down from 5/10/15%) and spell critical effect chance by 2/4/6 (down from 4/7/10%) on friendly targets at or below 50% health.

The more I look at Test of Faith, the more I think its like Blessed Resilience, a PvP talent in the Holy tree. Not that having holy PvP talents is bad, but 50% is just so far down there and since we're not downranking that would have to be a pretty darn big spike to take a raid tank down that low.

François · 09/11/08, 12:41 PM

I don't understand the balancing argument for striking Test of Faith and others, when Divine Providence is still strictly inferior to Spiritual Healing (+2% to all healing vs +2% for a few ones).

Holy nova and Prayer of Healing seem like they remain (with movement speed buffs) the only abilities using party boundaries instead of party and raid. Holy Nova Glyph and Divine Providence suggest that the healing part of nova is favored, still it is the least functional part of nova, because CoH is just plain better heal.

Divine Providence says "hey, you may use Circle, nova, prayers, Binding heal more", Serendipity and Holy concentration says "hey, if you want mana, use only Greater heal, thanks".

Supermerkicus · 09/11/08, 12:51 PM

Holy nova and Prayer of Healing seem like they remain (with movement speed buffs) the only abilities using party boundaries instead of party and raid. Holy Nova Glyph and Divine Providence suggest that the healing part of nova is favored, still it is the least functional part of nova, because CoH is just plain better heal.

You bring up Holy Nova, which I think isn't brought up often enough. It's the only garbage 11 point talent I've been able to find for any of my characters, with the next closest contender being Riposte for my Rogue, which was still really useful when leveling (especially in SM).

In the early alpha notes, Holy Nova was buffed significantly so that the healing portion had high efficiency when healing 2 or more targets and the damage portion was nerfed. For whatever reason, this was scrapped and the spell remains lumped back into the garbage bin, and the Glyph doesn't do much to change that - 40% of a small number is a small number.

It seems like they can't make up their mind on what they want the skill to be so it's just saddled with over-balancing to the point of uselessness - sad, because it's a neat skill.

François · 09/11/08, 1:03 PM

The magister terrace room with floating fishs, and the 40 trolls between Malacrass and Zul'jin are my favorites uses of Holy nova. Holy nova is for me THE 0 threat aoe with un-attainable aoe dps cap (is there any ?). The healing part is here only to make sure I can dps and say "hey, I assure you I'm healing this mad dpser who does not know to control his aoe threat".

Holy nova is also the spell that made me angry, having to respec out of it after my first Shadow Lab experience of being oom because of mob AI spamming it when I'm CM'ed...

Basically, I don't like not taking 1 pointers on any toon, so I welcome the Lightwell changes, but the Holy nova ones I don't understand.

Sarjin · 09/11/08, 1:12 PM

I don't think Riposte is in the same league of uselessness as Holy Nova, from my experiences with it. It obviously doesn't do much during raiding, but when soloing or in PvP, the skill is pretty powerful. It's main downside I'd say is the 5 point Parry prequisite, but with that being removed in WotLK, it should retain that niche. Holy Nova it seems has just been forgotten about. Priests hardly bother complaining about it anymore, and Blizzard seems to think it's fine because of this, or just can't be bothered...

Isin · 09/11/08, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Supermerkicus

You bring up Holy Nova, which I think isn't brought up often enough. It's the only garbage 11 point talent I've been able to find for any of my characters, with the next closest contender being Riposte for my Rogue, which was still really useful when leveling (especially in SM).

In the early alpha notes, Holy Nova was buffed significantly so that the healing portion had high efficiency when healing 2 or more targets and the damage portion was nerfed. For whatever reason, this was scrapped and the spell remains lumped back into the garbage bin, and the Glyph doesn't do much to change that - 40% of a small number is a small number.

It seems like they can't make up their mind on what they want the skill to be so it's just saddled with over-balancing to the point of uselessness - sad, because it's a neat skill.

Yeah, Holy Nova used to have a purpose when cheesing SoL crits while leveling holy, but with the downranking nerf, I'm really unable to find any use for this spell whatsoever.