Discipline and Holy WotLK Talent Preview and discussion. - Page 59

Kamakaze · 09/18/08, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by james

"Twin Disciplines (Tier 1) Increases your spell power on instant spells by 1%. (Previously increased spell damage and healing)"

I always think of tier 1 talents as being those that are useful for levelling (hence why I tolerated Wand Spec) and am pretty confused by this now underwhelming talent. Your lvl 10 priests will not have much +spell power so will barely benefit from this talent. Such a shame, Discipline could have been an interesting levelling path.

I agree that if the talent does what it implies, then it would be totally useless for leveling up. The same can be said for things like Improved Inner Fire, which is not worth it until leveling above 70 when it actually gains spellpower.

I do wonder though if the new Twin Disciplines wording means that it will affect Power Word: Shield aswell. Since it adds to the spellpower on instant spells it may well add to PW:S and was changed for that sole reason. It does make the talent much more confusing though.

gia · 09/18/08, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Supermerkicus

I like most of what I'm seeing, but I'm disappointed yet not surprised to see Unbreakable Will still sitting at a useless 15% reduction in stun/silence/fear.

Is that even noticeable at all on anything besides a lengthy Warlock fear?

The 30% it *should* be would drop all sorts of stuns by about 1 second - the 15% is not even relevant :/

That should really be looked at if they ever decide that our trees need a diet treatment.

It should be made 3 points for 10/20/30% reduction, also martyrdom or imp pw:f should be moved up to tier 1 to fill the void (and provide an alternate path to twin disciplines for pvp specs).

Mental Agility reduced to 3 points for 3/6/9% reduction would be great as well.

Having another 2 points trimmed somewhere from the tree would help too, but I can't decide another place where it would make sense, maybe merging imp. fort and imp. DS?

Also on the holy side 3 points Holy Spec for 2/4/6% crit as mentioned previously.

Kamakaze · 09/18/08, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by gia

That should really be looked at if they ever decide that our trees need a diet treatment.

It should be made 3 points for 10/20/30% reduction, also martyrdom or imp pw:f should be moved up to tier 1 to fill the void (and provide an alternate path to twin disciplines for pvp specs).

Mental Agility reduced to 3 points for 3/6/9% reduction would be great as well.

Having another 2 points trimmed somewhere from the tree would help too, but I can't decide another place where it would make sense, maybe merging imp. fort and imp. DS?

Also on the holy side 3 points Holy Spec for 2/4/6% crit as mentioned previously.

I have always thought it would make sense to merge Improved Fort, and Improved PW:S. They are both called "improved", and both are "power words". Combine the talents and change it to "Improved Power Words", "Increases the effect of your Fortitude by 30% and your PW:S by 15%"

Supermerkicus · 09/18/08, 1:23 PM

That should really be looked at if they ever decide that our trees need a diet treatment.

It should be made 3 points for 10/20/30% reduction, also martyrdom or imp pw:f should be moved up to tier 1 to fill the void (and provide an alternate path to twin disciplines for pvp specs).

Mental Agility reduced to 3 points for 3/6/9% reduction would be great as well.

Having another 2 points trimmed somewhere from the tree would help too, but I can't decide another place where it would make sense, maybe merging imp. fort and imp. DS?

Also on the holy side 3 points Holy Spec for 2/4/6% crit as mentioned previously.

I think you can justify the 5 talent points for 30% reduction in 3 effects - but Blizzard is probably arguing that it would be 'overpowered' if it were 30%.

Here's a comparison of the other similar talents, which all got massive boosts in the conversion, while ours just went from 15% resistance to a worthless 15% reduction.

-Note the point cost reduction in iron will, and the doubling (or tripling) of effects.

-Unbreakable Will
Live: 3/6/9/12/15% chance to resist stun/silence/fear
WoTLK : 3/6/9/12/15% reduction in duration of stun/silence/fear

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Nerves of Steel
Live : 5/10% chance to resist stuns and fears
WoTLK : 15/30% reduction in duration of stuns and fears

-Iron Will
Live : 3/6/9/12/15% chance to resist stun and charm
WoTLK : 10/20/30% reduction in duration of stun and charm

-Stoicism
Live : 5/10% chance to resist stun effects and 15/30% chance to resist dispel effects (talk about an overpowered talent btw...guarantee you this is way overbudget)
WoTLK: 10/20/30% chance to resist dispel effects and 10/20/30% reduction in stun duration

-Surefooted
Live : 5/10/15% chance to resist movement impairing effects, 1/2/3% increase to hit
WoTLK : 1/2/3% incrase hit, 16/32/50% reduction in duration of movement impairing effects

Pretty obvious disparity that isn't covered by "unbreakable will affects 3 things/ is a tier1 talent".

Starfire · 09/18/08, 2:16 PM

This reminds me of something I've always hated. I hate how when Holy Concentration is up, if you use Inner Focus, both are consumed -_-.

That said, it did occur to me if you have Surge of Light and Holy Concentration proc, you could just cast two Greater Heals -then- Flash Heal.

Also, we can use this to think outside of the box. Let's go with Nidaba's numbers and assume a 20% crit rate. You hit Inner Focus and you now have a 45% chance to crit per a target if you use Circle of Healing or Prayer of Healing (and well Binding Heal). 1- .55^5 = 94.9% (1 - ,55^2 = 69.8%) chance at least one person will be critically healed. Then 50% chance of that to be a free flash heal.

(Roughly 70% chance your binding heal gets a crit, then 45% chance of that to proc IHC is pretty hot too).

Jood · 09/18/08, 2:22 PM

I just wish they would kill lightwell

..... now they can, literally

Isin · 09/18/08, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by Starfire

This reminds me of something I've always hated. I hate how when Holy Concentration is up, if you use Inner Focus, both are consumed -_-.

That said, it did occur to me if you have Surge of Light and Holy Concentration proc, you could just cast two Greater Heals -then- Flash Heal.

I really don't like that, because if you do a:

Greater Heal (Clearcasting used) - Greater Heal - Flash Heal (SoL used)

then you're breaking up two free casts with a mana-cast, and not gaining the benefit of going into the FSR.

KalistraMerged · 09/18/08, 2:41 PM

Originally Posted by Isin

I really don't like that, because if you do a:

Greater Heal (Clearcasting used) - Greater Heal - Flash Heal (SoL used)

then you're breaking up two free casts with a mana-cast, and not gaining the benefit of going into the FSR.

Surely you would

Clearcasr - IF - SoL

Thats a lot of time outside the 5 second, but surely you would probably want some aoe heal in there?

On the disc front, I'm hopeful that TD now affects PWS, can someone corretc my maths though, Imp DS is still blow out the water by FtW?

Ta

Palendior · 09/18/08, 2:55 PM

The new Surge of Light looks awesome. Another small step towards fixing our scaling with crit - excellent.It is also the kind of mechanic that makes for fun gameplay, at least for me. Good job on that one Blizz.

But the new Hymn of Hope is truely complete junk. I need to channel for 8 seconds to gain slightly more mana than Drums of Restoration (using level 70 values... or, differently put, considerably less than 5 seconds of OO5SR regen)? When am I supposed to have any use for this? I suppose in a 8 second long phase transition with no incoming damage and nothing better to do... Doesn't really happen very often and doubtful if I'd need it if it did.

As a human who will now have to spend a talent point to get a Desperate Prayer that now costs mana - I can't say I'm happy with the racials tradeoff, but then again, as long as they don't touch Human Spirit I won't complain

Liths · 09/18/08, 3:13 PM

Originally Posted by Palendior

As a human who will now have to spend a talent point to get a Desperate Prayer that now costs mana - I can't say I'm happy with the racials tradeoff, but then again, as long as they don't touch Human Spirit I won't complain

The Human Spirit is down to 3%.

Shatter Combo w/ Fries · 09/18/08, 3:25 PM

Well, haste is fun I guess

Isin · 09/18/08, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by KalistraMerged

Surely you would

Clearcasr - IF - SoL

Thats a lot of time outside the 5 second, but surely you would probably want some aoe heal in there?

Well I was thinking more that I was planning on trying to use the crit bonus from IF to jump-start a clearcasting chain. This way you could macro your trinket into Inner Focus, and it wouldn't be as much of a juggle to get a chain like it is now.

snwborder52 · 09/18/08, 3:45 PM

I was looking through the priest calc today and thought about a CoH spec, emphasising instant cast spells (CoH, PoM, and Renew) and came up with something interesting. The spec emphasies any talent that increases the Hpm/hps of Instants and CoH, while demphasising talents that work around GH, FH, Binding, and timed casts.

SampleSpec

Highlights:

The following talents are left out
Empowered Healing
Only 2/3 Inspiration (This now affects CoH, but It's much more of a tank heal talent then a raid heal talent)
Serendipity
Gaurdian Spirit (I'd have to play around with it to decide whether or not to take it).

The following talents are included, that may not be included in a Typical Holy Spec.
5/5 Holy Specilization (As far as i know, clearcasting is going to scale with crit, and i've always loved CoH Crits)
Test of Faith
4/5 Mental Agility

Talents I wish i didn't have to take:
2/3 Inspiriation (see above)
Improved Healing (Only affects spells with cast times, save Divine Hymn, and penance, which i don't have, of course)
Divine Fury

Considering how powerful CoH was in BC, and all the talents in Disc that support instant castsm this may be a good spec.

Any input? I'm really interested in how much priests should/will be emphasising instant casts, namely CoH, versus their main spams. [I understand that the raid content play a large part in deciding this, but still, i'm interested]

And for note, glyphs that i would use with this are Renew (-3 sec +25% healing), CoH (+1 target), and Imp Death (chance to increase imp death time on cast) for majors (asumming they are majors)

Chirality · 09/18/08, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by Jood

I just wish they would kill lightwell

..... now they can, literally

Well played. That's uh...a foolish change.

By the way--the discussion about Iron Will...

Warrior's version is now 3 points for 20% reduction to Stun and Charm.

Priest's Iron Will is 5 points for 15% reduction to Stun/Fear/Silence.

Iron Will is roughly (% for %) three times more useful than Toughness, as priests care a lot about Stun/Fear/Silence and no one cares about Charm. I'm not personally justifying that Iron Will be 15% for 5 points compared to 20% for 3 like the warrior one, but that *might* be the explanation.

Kortar · 09/18/08, 3:59 PM

Lets say you have surge of light and holy concentration. You score a crit with gheal. You proc both holy concentration and surge of light. What happens when you press the flash heal button. Does the free instant FH consume the holy concentration buff and one of the hasted charges? If it does I would rather cut off my finger than spend a single point in SoL.

I suspect the question you need ask yourself before you question the value of SoL would be: what happens when you press the Binding Heal button?

Because most of the time that would be the button you'd be pressing, not Flash Heal.

Also, while 45% may seem low, the combination of cost reduction and haste, coupled with the multi-proc chances from multi-target heals makes it almost always better than a Paladin's Illumination. And Paladins gear for crit without even having Inspiration.

Isin · 09/18/08, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by snwborder52

I was looking through the priest calc today and thought about a CoH spec, emphasising instant cast spells (CoH, PoM, and Renew) and came up with something interesting. The spec emphasies any talent that increases the Hpm/hps of Instants and CoH, while demphasising talents that work around GH, FH, Binding, and timed casts.

I came up with two specs. One that has IMP DS, and one that does not (as of the most recent build IMP DS increases spellpower by 100% of the spirit that it grants). These are both level 80 specs.

IMP DS Spec, No-IMP DS Spec

Highlights:

The following talents are left out
Empowered Healing
Only 2/3 Inspiration (This now affects CoH, but It's much more of a tank heal talent then a raid heal talent)
Serendipity
Gaurdian Spirit (I'd have to play around with it to decide whether or not to take it).

The following talents are included, that may not be included in a Typical Holy Spec.
5/5 Holy Specilization (As far as i know, clearcasting is going to scale with crit, and i've always loved CoH Crits)
Test of Faith (1/3 for Imp DS)
4/5 Mental Agility (5/5 for imp DS)

Talents I wish i didn't have to take:
2/3 Inspiriation (see above)
Improved Healing (Only affects spells with cast times, save Divine Hymn, and penance, which i don't have, of course)

Considering how powerful CoH was in BC, and all the talents in Disc that support instant castsm this may be a good spec, especially if you are going to be the IMP DS priest.

Any input? I'm really interested in how much priests should/will be emphasising instant casts, namely CoH, versus their main spams. [I understand that the raid content play a large part in deciding this, but still, i'm interested]

And for note, glyphs that i would use with this are Renew (-3 sec +25% healing), CoH (+1 target), and Imp Death (chance to increase imp death time on cast) for majors (asumming they are majors)

Is this for raiding? For raiding, there is no longer a requirement for an "IDS" priest if you have shaman or demo warlocks in your raid. Anything spent beyond DS is most likely a waste of 2 points.

snwborder52 · 09/18/08, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Isin

Is this for raiding? For raiding, there is no longer a requirement for an "IDS" priest if you have shaman or demo warlocks in your raid. Anything spent beyond DS is most likely a waste of 2 points.

Ah, your right. Forgot >.<

Well then scrap the IMP DS Part. I'll edit that.

Suhné · 09/18/08, 4:27 PM

Originally Posted by snwborder52

I was looking through the priest calc today and thought about a CoH spec, emphasising instant cast spells (CoH, PoM, and Renew) and came up with something interesting. The spec emphasies any talent that increases the Hpm/hps of Instants and CoH, while demphasising talents that work around GH, FH, Binding, and timed casts.

SampleSpec

Highlights:

The following talents are left out
Empowered Healing
Only 2/3 Inspiration (This now affects CoH, but It's much more of a tank heal talent then a raid heal talent)
Serendipity
Gaurdian Spirit (I'd have to play around with it to decide whether or not to take it).

The following talents are included, that may not be included in a Typical Holy Spec.
5/5 Holy Specilization (As far as i know, clearcasting is going to scale with crit, and i've always loved CoH Crits)
Test of Faith
4/5 Mental Agility

Talents I wish i didn't have to take:
2/3 Inspiriation (see above)
Improved Healing (Only affects spells with cast times, save Divine Hymn, and penance, which i don't have, of course)
Divine Fury

Considering how powerful CoH was in BC, and all the talents in Disc that support instant castsm this may be a good spec.

Any input? I'm really interested in how much priests should/will be emphasising instant casts, namely CoH, versus their main spams. [I understand that the raid content play a large part in deciding this, but still, i'm interested]

And for note, glyphs that i would use with this are Renew (-3 sec +25% healing), CoH (+1 target), and Imp Death (chance to increase imp death time on cast) for majors (asumming they are majors)

Just one problem with all of this... HC and IHC only procs with Flash Heal, Binding Heal and Greater Heal crits. Not with CoH .-/

Isin · 09/18/08, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Suhné

Just one problem with all of this... HC and IHC only procs with Flash Heal, Binding Heal and Greater Heal crits. Not with CoH .-/

COH crits are still gravy for SoL. I think the synergy of crit and IHC still is not bad with this particular build.

Supermerkicus · 09/18/08, 5:14 PM

By the way--the discussion about Iron Will...

Warrior's version is now 3 points for 20% reduction to Stun and Charm.

Priest's Iron Will is 5 points for 15% reduction to Stun/Fear/Silence.

Iron Will is roughly (% for %) three times more useful than Toughness, as priests care a lot about Stun/Fear/Silence and no one cares about Charm. I'm not personally justifying that Iron Will be 15% for 5 points compared to 20% for 3 like the warrior one, but that *might* be the explanation.

Yep. They recently nerfed IW, Nerves of Steel reduces damage when stunned, and Stoicism will probably get a big swing from the nerf bat too.

Pretty much nullifies my entire argument about UW, which is ok by me, the main problem was it not being in line with the other talents - if they nerf the other talents down that's ok too.

Gourd · 09/18/08, 6:11 PM

Originally Posted by Shatter Combo w/ Fries

It's sad that the most exciting thing about this patch for me is PI+PW:S hasted rezzes, what would that be, somewhere around 5 seconds? Oh man I am going to upset some people in 5v5 with hilarious comebacks.

Yeah, desperate prayer is a bit 'meh' now. Mana cost and the cooldown is too much, it feels like it should be one or the other. Anyone know if penance is self castable? Like I said earlier in the thread, I'd take a self cast penance over the prospective version of DP.

Penance is still not self castable in the latest build, I just tried. It seems more likely than ever to me that it is their intention for it to not be able to be used on yourself.

Desperate prayer should have either been given mana cost, or had its cooldown increased... Not both. I had previously envisioned (assuming that penance was not made self-castable) myself being accepting of penance only being usable on others because I would still have a very mana efficient heal to frequently use for myself (desperate prayer). However with the implementation of DP involving a much longer cooldown than expected, I'm much more interested in determining the viability of an alternative spec.

Alexanderr · 09/19/08, 1:06 AM

Just completed a heroic Setteck Hall on the PTR with the new Holy Conc. and IHC and was very dissapointed to see that I didn't get a single proc the entire run. It was probably just some lousy luck but it definitely feels that despite having 3/3 HC and IHC, you're a little worse off then before (at lvl 70). My guild plans to carry on raiding after the patch hits and right up until WoTLK release. I just hope it's not too big of a reduction for us lvl 70's to cause problems during this interim period. I wonder will we be somewhat reliant on the Replenishment buff to supplement our mana return during this time also?

james · 09/19/08, 3:14 AM

Really low proc rate idd - managed to empty my mana bar a few times w/o a single proc on the PTR. Either they need to re-itemise all cloth healing items with a nice amount of crit (bye2u mp5) or those 4 weeks of raiding are going to be a bit interesting considering I'm going to be w/o downranking and chain potting.

Right now, I'm going to give Holy Concentration a miss, http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...00000000000000

Also, I lost a fair few Surge of Light procs without even noticing it but I was spamming Flash Heal on myself (guild shaman wanted to "test his crits"). I truly believe that it needs to be a proc for Prayer of Healing because it could be useful for breaking your cast sequence when raid healing (assuming Prayer now has the same mechanic as CoH) and it removes the GCD issue.

The tree feels really bloated - I don't think I'll even spec Desperate Prayer till 80, if at all.

Hegen · 09/19/08, 5:05 AM

Originally Posted by james

Really low proc rate idd - managed to empty my mana bar a few times w/o a single proc on the PTR.
...
Either they need to re-itemise all cloth healing items with a nice amount of crit (bye2u mp5) or those 4 weeks of raiding are going to be a bit interesting considering I'm going to be w/o downranking and chain potting.

For what it's worth, I retested a few minutes ago with 5 test series on PTR. Proc rate seems to be in the advertised range. Probably just a case of very bad luck on your side.

Flash heal seems like filling the role of healing small to medium amounts for level 70. With the flash heal glyph, mana cost is down to around 420. When healing the target full, it's down to around 310. That will work, but require some addon reconfiguration (need to see the exact amount missing now) and some practice.

My current gut feeling from PTR is for raiding at 70: if you continue to use GH mostly, you may have mana problems. If you combine it with FH, you are going to be fine. If you were using CoH a lot, things look bad so far. Again, the glyph fixes a part of the problem. It's also hard to test properly without a raid scenario what the changed functionality of CoH is worth in terms of mana efficiency.

Zorath · 09/19/08, 5:13 AM

With the changes to VT (Replentish), now only giving 0.25% of total mana, compared to 0.5% before 8926.
Coupled with what appears to be a new formula for int/spirit regen (Im sorry i dont have the numbers yet)

Has anyone done a number crunch on the regen abilities of INT vs SPI vs Mp5?