And if you're taking pushback on Bloodboil, You're Not Doing It Right. Last I heard, CoH was instant. Not using CoH and PoM to heal Bloodboil is like cuffing your arms behind your back before a boxing match. Use the tools for what they are designed for.
You've got it backwards. CoH wasn't designed for Bloodboil -- Bloodboil was designed to make CoH useful ;P
Regarding Renew, isn't it still our biggest possible (non-crit, single-target) heal-per-cast-time, with a 1.5-second cast and 100% modifier? Or do the talents for other heals put them ahead?
Last edited by Observer : 10/14/08 at 8:49 PM.
Reason: I'm a page behind and a dollar short
Renew is the only spell with 100 % modifier. However, you would need insane amounts of spellpower (read 'non obtainable amounts') to put Renew over GH. Also, Renew can´t crit, thus you can´t reasonably compare it with spells that can.
Many things have to be seen in their context. ImpRenew (or Renew at all, if you like) might not be viable at lvl70, but who cares anyway? 1 month and we´re done with all of that. At lvl80 I feel I use Renew quite a lot. For example I´d rather give away Flash Heal than Renew (hypothetical, of course, since the question does not occur). Do not forget that having healing spells of all categories (direct heal, instant, group heal, HoT, absorb) is what defines us and seperates (and to some extent elevates) priests from other healing classes. Renew is our only HoT and there are bunches of situations where HoTs prove to be useful.
I've cut down on my Renew usage a lot at 80, it just doesn't work well in a disc spec. (My spec for reference: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)
With 2094 self buffed spell power Renew is healing for 5825 and Flash Heal non crit heals for ~3950, with the Flash Heal glyph they cost the same amount of mana. I get about 160 mana back from Rapture for a FH which brings their efficiency roughly to the same level. When FH crits though I can get almost twice as much mana back from Rapture taking the return from Divine Aegis into account, while also healing more than a Renew.
If you have a decent crit rate and don't overheal FH is significantly more efficient than Renew and it also procs Grace and Inspiration.
As you say there are still many situations where a HoT makes sense, like at Maexxna during the stun, or when casting on the move, or when topping someone off and FH would overheal, etc.
Most of the times though you shouldn't be casting Renew if you can cast FH instead.
Although there's now a clearer benefit to favoring other spells, I still see Renew serving a meaningful purpose in circumstances where periodic damage is occurring to more than 5 or 6 random targets.
Although there's now a clearer benefit to favoring other spells, I still see Renew serving a meaningful purpose in circumstances where periodic damage is occurring to more than 5 or 6 random targets.
It depends how much your raid tends to cross-heal. The problem with using Renew for raid healing is that inevitably someone shows up with a Chain Heal or a Flash of Light or something and your Renew is useless. If you have assignments to yourself, then by all means use Renew for non-time-critical raid healing, but that situation is becoming less and less common, and at level 80 not only is it not common, but Renew gains nothing from the new talents (and in fact most of the holy builds I've seen will drop MA to make it even worse).
Surge of Light, by contrast, is frontloaded, so it's much less likely that someone will overheal it (they'd have to land a heal inside your reaction time + latency).
It depends how much your raid tends to cross-heal. The problem with using Renew for raid healing is that inevitably someone shows up with a Chain Heal or a Flash of Light or something and your Renew is useless. If you have assignments to yourself, then by all means use Renew for non-time-critical raid healing, but that situation is becoming less and less common, and at level 80 not only is it not common, but Renew gains nothing from the new talents (and in fact most of the holy builds I've seen will drop MA to make it even worse).
Surge of Light, by contrast, is frontloaded, so it's much less likely that someone will overheal it (they'd have to land a heal inside your reaction time + latency).
Renew really can't be compared to those kinds of spells since it's use doesn't really fall into the same categories. I'm not trying to imply that it will become a primary spell, but it's nevertheless a powerful one in softening the blow and when it ends up redirecting Chain Heals and CoH's, that's when it's been used effectively. It's obvious that its impact is diminishing, but I don't see myself not continuing to cycle it around when time permits.
It's not; it's likely a bug with the 'older' version of Divine Spirit (i.e. the non-80 one). Report it.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
I've been reading this thread for quite a time now, and with the patch going live today I'll respec to Deep Disc this evening. :-) *cheer*
Anyway, I have still some questions in regards of deep disc gear and enchants/gems @lvl70:
As some ppl said, the things you'll look for as a deep disc are spellpower > crit > haste
- What value of crit% must I look for to get things going well?
I have 14,7% crit on my holy gear atm, with the new Mental Strength it will be quite somewhat higher, because of the 15% more int.
I am thinking of trying to reach about ~20% crit unbuffed with changing some enchants from +heal to +int (bracers, weapon) and maybe filling the rest up with some crit/spellpower gems.
Maybe even switch some Gear to +crit gear from my shadow equip... (e.g. T6 Legs <-> Channeled Elements Legs from Hyjal)
- What do you think of the Trinket from Aran (Kara) with it's +40 int?
With Mental Strength and Kings we'll have 40 + 25% = 50 int from one single trinket! Thats quite awesome!
- Changing +heal from Bracers / Weapon to +12 int / +30 int
Viable? (More int = more mana, more crit, some reg, more effectiv manareg through disc talents and shadowfiend)
- What would be your preference about stats?
I think, as a deep disc, spirit isn't as much important as int. But I think I have to keep some base spirit, to establish some base spirit reg, allthough most reg will come through rapture.
Working my way to a build for when i log on tonight. Basicly it will be like this. But i am still a bit undecided if i should take 3/3 Imp. Holy Concentration or 3/3 Test of Faith. My main roll will be group healing in SWP. I have the feeling that Test of Faith will be better, due to having not so much critrating. On the other hand, if raid healing goes well, people shouldnt be under 50% HP thus favouring Imp. Holy Concentration.
I'm in a likewise situation. I first said that I will take ToF over IHC because that looks like the safer way. But since they put a moonkin in our grp yesterday since they did not know where to place him anyway (stupid RL) and I had time to play around something with my gear I know I can have above 20% crit on lvl 70 easily. The main problem for the decision is that both talents work best if you take them together.
I dont know how much GH/FH/BH you use while raidhealing. If you dont use them much IHC will not help you much. On the other hand ToF only helps you if people drop below 50% often enough. With smart targeting of CoH you may have that more often than before but you simply have to test it.
Another question: Why did you take Imp Renew over Inspiration while taking Holy Specialisatin and ToF to boost up your crit?
My Priest model for Rawr is now mostly complete, those of you who wishes to test it can find Rawr 2.0 here.
I've got some time to play around with the tool since I'm waiting for the europeen servers to come up again with the patch.
First thing to say: thank you
I've loved to use it before but what you did for this patch is great, especialy since everything is changing all the time. And all the talents that depend on a multitude of stuff.
I've a question regarding test of faith. It does not change anything when I take it. Since I thougth I would take it for lvl70 I'm curious if you simply could not messure it with your tool because it is too situational or if you came to the conclusion that it simply is so worse that it makes no difference.
In the first case I would want to play around with it to get a feeling about how usefull it is for my playing style. In the second case I would love to read your reasoning behind it. Is it because with all the smart-targeting-tools around you nearly never will land the requiered heal or that the effect is so minor even if you get a procc that it does not matter in a whole fight anyway?
I've tried to get a glimpse on the usefullness of it on the PTR but never got the possibility to try it out. Everytime I entered a heroic or raid somebody had to go before the first boss or there were no bosses since somebody could not remember that he had cleard the instance before on the same day or I was forced to switch to my tank since the paladin just realized that retribution would be much more interesting to try out or server went down.
(I hope this is the right place to ask the question since I'm more interested in the reasoning around the talent than in the functionality of the tool.)
So far, the discussion around the Test of Faith talent has resulted in atleast one thing everyone agrees on: It is situational.
Personally I feel Test of Faith in itself is an awesome idea for a talent, but you gotta realize, that whenever Test of Faith procs, you have already semi-failed by letting someone drop below 50% max hp. On some fights you will see a lot of procs on Test of Faith, and in other fights you will see close to none.
I will add a slider to the Options tab for amount of heals affected by Test of Faith in next version (version after 2.0.1 will have it). Probably leave it at default 25%. Maybe that can help us value Test of Faith up against Surge of Light and Divine Providence.
Edit:
Added the slider for Test of Faith. Using my priest (armory to the left), checking all raid buffs, and using 14/47 Spec
Raid Situation (Spell Ratio: 1x ProM + 4x CoH + 2x FH)
At 10% of healing being increased through Test of Faith, the talent is worthless. Which is expected, as your average heal would be increased by 6%*10% = 0.6% crit and heal. Once 17% or more of your heals get affected by Test of Faith, it becomes stronger than Holy Specialization. (6%*17% = 1.02% crit & heal). For default value of 25%, Test of Faith is beaten by Divine Providence by a lot. You need to get about 62% of heals on targets with <50% hp before Test of Faith beats Divine Providence.
Tank Situation (Spell Ratio: 1x ProM + 1x Renew + 5x GH)
Again, Test of Faith is worse than Holy Specialization until you hit 17% of heals at under 50%. In order for Test of Faith to beat the alternative, Improved Holy Concentration, you will need to land over 32% of your heals when tank is below 50%.
TLDR; Test of Faith fails when compared to the alternatives (at level 70).
Last edited by The Not So Evil : 10/15/08 at 9:35 AM.
Reason: Some testing;
Personally I feel Test of Faith in itself is an awesome idea for a talent, but you gotta realize, that whenever Test of Faith procs, you have already semi-failed by letting someone drop below 50% max hp. On some fights you will see a lot of procs on Test of Faith, and in other fights you will see close to none.
That's why I asked a few pages back for Beta experience from the people who don't like the talent. On both new fights in Wotlk people are droping below 50% even if you like it or not. Of course it's situational as in "if no-one ever drops below 50% it's utter crap".
Depending on how mana will play out (rumors say that SW is a complete joke now) I will drop points in clearcast and move to Emp. healing.
***
Edit to comment your edit: You can't compare healing like that. Healing someone at sub 50% is a lot more important than healing someone at 70%. The bonushealing you gain from Test of Faith is also almost zero overhealing (if that's good English and you understand my point ...). I agree fully with Blizzard's reasoning behind the talent and the placement in the tree, not saying that it can't be buffed if priests don't perform well enough vs. other healers.
And Divine Providence > Test of Faith is just how it should be, it's tier 10 > tier 9.
I've cut down on my Renew usage a lot at 80, it just doesn't work well in a disc spec. (My spec for reference: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)
With 2094 self buffed spell power Renew is healing for 5825 and Flash Heal non crit heals for ~3950, with the Flash Heal glyph they cost the same amount of mana. I get about 160 mana back from Rapture for a FH which brings their efficiency roughly to the same level. When FH crits though I can get almost twice as much mana back from Rapture taking the return from Divine Aegis into account, while also healing more than a Renew.
If you have a decent crit rate and don't overheal FH is significantly more efficient than Renew and it also procs Grace and Inspiration.
As you say there are still many situations where a HoT makes sense, like at Maexxna during the stun, or when casting on the move, or when topping someone off and FH would overheal, etc.
Most of the times though you shouldn't be casting Renew if you can cast FH instead.
You already mentioned one of the most important points: Renew can be cast on the move. Many fights imply movement and thinking about it retrospectively I can say that I use especially those movement phases to toss Renews around while concentrating on the MT most other times. I might have to add that I use the glyphed Renew, since I feel more comfortable with the higher ticks. Nevertheless, the point you mentioned about FH critting and the inclined effects is somewhat pointless to me. No reasonable disc priest will use FH for a tank, which greatly lowers the benefits of Aegis and Inspiration. The latter is simply pointless on anybody who isn´t a tank and you probably won´t get much return from Aegis, unless you face constant raid damage (in contrast to raid damage once in a while).
However, I do basically agree that FH has more potential than Renew (since Renew does not procc anything disc offers), yet I feel very comfortable with using Renew at 80. It might be a matter of taste to some extent, though.
Last edited by Thorongil : 10/15/08 at 9:53 AM.
Reason: typos
I'm struggling to keep up with all the talent changes on my Mage and the relevant thread so apologies for not reading all 90 pages to catchup on the current thinking regarding the new talents :-)
As I'm lvling my Priest atm healing in instances to get practice I've been using a holy/disc build where I have the Spirit buff and then chuck all the rest in holy (lvl62 atm).
For 5 man stuff is it really worth worrying too much about the new talents/specs and should I just stick with something similar to what I have now?
The way I see it, if you are raid healing with Circle of Healing, at lets say, Felmyst. Every time you heal with Circle of Healing, it will seek out the 5 people with least HP. With 3 Points in Divine Providence, you have a 6% increased healing every time you heal with Circle of Healing. With 3 points in Test of Faith, you have 6% increased healing and 6% increased crit only when they are below 50%.
Now, ask yourself, why did those people drop to below 50%? Was it because of the steady damage from the Aura, or because of Burst? Lets say it was because of the Aura. If every CoH you put out did 6% more healing, he may never have gotten into that situation. And if the 6% more healing BEFORE he went below 50% was not enough, then the 6% extra healing and 6% extra crit AFTER he goes below 50% will not help as well.
Alternative 2, he got bursted down. Do you try to heal a player taking that much damage with a CoH? I'm pretty sure you will either shield him or use a flash heal. Math: 1510 spp: 20% empowerment = 302 extra heal. 8% empowerment = 120.8 extra heal. ((1116+1295)/2 + 1510*1.5/3.5*1.88 = 2422.13. (2242.13 + 120.8) * 1.06 * (1+6%*50%) = 2776.37 - 2422.13 = 354.24. So it comes down to 302-120.8 = 181.2 from going 5/5 Emp Heal, or 354.24 only when target is <50%.
One thing I have not yet tested is if Renew ticks 6% higher on targets <50%.
TheFairey: Stick with what you already know. Priest talents have not changed much...
I'm struggling to keep up with all the talent changes on my Mage and the relevant thread so apologies for not reading all 90 pages to catchup on the current thinking regarding the new talents :-)
As I'm lvling my Priest atm healing in instances to get practice I've been using a holy/disc build where I have the Spirit buff and then chuck all the rest in holy (lvl62 atm).
For 5 man stuff is it really worth worrying too much about the new talents/specs and should I just stick with something similar to what I have now?
Ta
Si
Specc has never really mattered for 5-mans (save heroics) and it will not in WotlK (or with 3.0.2). You could probably do 5-mans without speccing anything.
Specc has never really mattered for 5-mans (save heroics) and it will not in WotlK (or with 3.0.2). You could probably do 5-mans without speccing anything.
Hehehe I suspected that might be the case but thanks for that, I only started healing 2 levels ago so need all the help I can get :-)
The way I see it, if you are raid healing with Circle of Healing, at lets say, Felmyst. Every time you heal with Circle of Healing, it will seek out the 5 people with least HP. With 3 Points in Divine Providence, you have a 6% increased healing every time you heal with Circle of Healing. With 3 points in Test of Faith, you have 6% increased healing and 6% increased crit only when they are below 50%.
I don't understand your reasoning
Just to clear things up ... at lvl 70 this isn't really much of a deal as you can only get 2/5 Divine Providence because of our dependance on 14p in Discipline. At lvl 80 I will obviously spec both Divine Providence and Test of Faith.
Test of Fatih also affect all healing spells, so if your point is to say that a tier 10 talent which is a pure AoE-healing talent buff an AoE-spell more than a tier 9 talent which also affect Single Target-healing, then I can only agree.
Yes, I guess that is what I'm saying. If you want Test of Faith to boost Circle of Healing, you should probably attempt to maximize Divine Providence first. If you want Test of Faith to boost your Tank healing (FH/GH), you should atleast max Empowered Healing first, and then Holy Concentration & Imp. Holy Conc.
Till yesterday I was raiding SWP, trying the Twins with a 11 healer=3 shaman, 3 CoH, 4 pala, 1 tree setup.
I would like to try a discipline spec, do you think that it's viable or the Holy spec will still be a must till 80?
And if discipline is a good option, what do you think about one like this World of Warcraft - Talent Calculator? Or it's better a Flash Heal+PW:S+PoM spam with one like this World of Warcraft - Talent Calculator?
Another question: Why did you take Imp Renew over Inspiration while taking Holy Specialisatin and ToF to boost up your crit?
I was thinking that armor only helps if you actualy get mellee hits. Since i aint doing tank healing, so i heal people that dont get mellee hits, Insparation felt useless. An higher renew tick on the other hand can has it uses since i ll normaly trow a renew on tanks if GCD allows.
I'm in a likewise situation. I first said that I will take ToF over IHC because that looks like the safer way. But since they put a moonkin in our grp yesterday since they did not know where to place him anyway (stupid RL) and I had time to play around something with my gear I know I can have above 20% crit on lvl 70 easily. The main problem for the decision is that both talents work best if you take them together.
I dont know how much GH/FH/BH you use while raidhealing. If you dont use them much IHC will not help you much. On the other hand ToF only helps you if people drop below 50% often enough. With smart targeting of CoH you may have that more often than before but you simply have to test it.
Another question: Why did you take Imp Renew over Inspiration while taking Holy Specialisatin and ToF to boost up your crit?
10/14/08, 8:44 PM
