Discipline and Holy WotLK Talent Preview and discussion. - Page 97

Shatter Combo w/ Fries · 10/25/08, 5:50 PM

I had very very large post typed up about flash heal vs. renew for 'top off' healing as penance spec, but my browser ate it

I'll try to summarize my findings quickly, I can re-do the math on demand if anyone cares.

1. Renew is always better HPM than flash heal at 0% crit (obviously)
2. A critical flash heal effectively 'double dips' and has about ~20% higher HPM than renew (without DA factored in)
3. It takes about 40% crit for flash heal to overcome renew in average HPM.
4. If DA actually gets used instead of sitting on someone taking no damage, that value gets lowered as much as down to ~28% crit.
5. Flash heal is better for HPS, re-applying grace, inspiration (at 80)

Well, that was short but was pretty much the gist of my big post.

Observer · 10/25/08, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Shatter Combo w/ Fries

I had very very large post typed up about flash heal vs. renew for 'top off' healing as penance spec, but my browser ate it

I'll try to summarize my findings quickly, I can re-do the math on demand if anyone cares.

1. Renew is always better HPM than flash heal at 0% crit (obviously)
2. A critical flash heal effectively 'double dips' and has about ~20% higher HPM than renew (without DA factored in)
3. It takes about 40% crit for flash heal to overcome renew in average HPM.
4. If DA actually gets used instead of sitting on someone taking no damage, that value gets lowered as much as down to ~28% crit.
5. Flash heal is better for HPS, re-applying grace, inspiration (at 80)

Well, that was short but was pretty much the gist of my big post.

Good summary. It seems to buck the currently circulating conventional wisdom that Renew isn't worth casting any more.

What talents/glyphs are assumed? All of them (besides high Holy)?

• constantius · 10/25/08, 8:17 PM

The conventional wisdom re: Renew, at least from my perspective, was from a Holy priest standpoint. In that situation, assuming 20% crit, the FH glyph, and 50% Serendipity procs (@2000 spellpower+), FH was always more efficient HpM than Renew. It was also faster.

In the Disc case, the model is messy because of DA procs off the crits, but assuming similar things, it's comparable HpM. At least, as far as I remember. That can also be extended to the opportunity cost of getting Imp Renew: you lose either cast time reduction on GHeal or % crit, since there isn't much flex room in Disc to find 3 extra points.

Promethia · 10/25/08, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by constantius

This is @ Shaara above, with the comparison of Int / Spirit. First, on a purely gear-pickup-related note, as I mentioned before, getting items with no spirit on them will be difficult at best. I honestly doubt you could keep your spirit totals down to 500 once you replace all the items with Naxx.10-level gear. In fact, a rough benchmark, as I mentioned, is to assume a baseline of 1000/1000 for any computations you're doing, and figure out the gains from that point on.

...

Model #7: Regen from Meditation through increase in Intellect
Here we should again assume some value of spirit, and know the baseline intellect:

5 * 0.005575 * Spirit * [sqrt{Int+1} - sqrt{Int}]

and then assume 80% I5SR and work from there.

Model #8: Regen from Meditation through increase in Spirit
Here we have to assume an intellect value to determine the value of increasing one point of spirit. I chose 1000, for reasons I mentioned above. Obviously the model is simple to scale to any actual Intellect value.

5 * 0.005575 * 1 * sqrt{Int}

Also, assume 80% I5SR for scaling purposes. 30% regen 80% of the time, 100% regen 20% of the time.

I took a little different approach, although my conclusions are similar. I looked just at mana regeneration, so you'd have to weigh in other benefits of int/spirit, but I used a multivariate model that considered all values of int, spirit, and % in FSR. The basic model is:

$\displaystyle{Mp5 = k(1-0.7(\%FSR))\cdot Spirit \cdot\sqrt{Int} + k'\cdot Int}$

where k and k' are constants. Basically k summarizes constants affecting mana regeneration via meditation, and k' summarizes constants that affect mana regeneration through your total mana pool size (e.g. replenishment, shadow fiend). I am also not especially interested in debating which values for k and k' are right and which are "wrong", and it turns out their precise value doesn't matter a lot, but I used the following for reference. Feel free to use ones you like better:

k = 0.0336209 (for holy; includes BoK, SoR)
k = 0.0358400 (for discipline; includes BoK, mental strength, enlightenment)
k' = 0.330 (holy; estimate that includes BoK)
k' = 0.750 (discipline; estimate that includes BoK, mental strength)

The changes in mana regen from changing spirit and int are more precisely these partial derivatives:

$\displaystyle{\frac{\partial Mp5}{\partial Spirit} = k(1-0.7(\%FSR))\cdot\sqrt{Int}\quad\text{(for spirit)}$

$\displaystyle{\frac{\partial Mp5}{\partial Int} = \frac{k(1-0.7(\%FSR))\cdot Spirit}{2\sqrt{Int}} + k'\quad\text{(for intellect)}}$

Only the latter formula differs from what has previously been posted, and not in any significant way except I think the above is slightly easier to work with. However, if you want to know the value of intellect (for mana regen) relative to spirit, use this:

$\displaystyle{\frac{Mp5_{int}}{Mp5_{spirit}} = \frac{Spirit}{2\cdot Int} + \frac{k'}{k(1-0.7(\%FSR))\cdot\sqrt{Int}}$

If that value is greater than 1.0, then you should stack int; if it's less than 1.0, then stack spirit. That should make gear choices simpler, except I'd warn that the value is quite sensitive to changes in your estimated % of time in the FSR. I'd suggest trying a low and high estimate of %FSR and see if it changes your decision. If not, then it's an easy choice. Changes in buffs and talents have significantly less impact, so I'd not worry too much about that.

Another approach is to look at how high your %FSR has to be before int becomes more valuable than spirit. That value is:

$\displaystyle{\frac{10}{7}\cdot\left(1-\frac{2k'}{k\sqrt{Int}}\right)}$

Since a picture is worth a thousand words:

Below the line, you are better off having more spirit than intellect. Above the line, you are better off with more intellect than spirit. Note that spirit gets relatively more valuable as you add more stats.

For discipline priests, intellect was always more valuable than spirit.

I was also interested in figuring out the absolute optimum values for int and spirit, given a combined total of int+spirit (since the optimum ratio is not fixed). That is a little messier, and depends on a critical constant:

$\displaystyle{c = \frac{k'}{3k(1-0.7(\%FSR))}}$

Given that constant, c, and a total int+spirit, X, your optimum value for int turns out to be:

$\displaystyle{Intellect_{optimum} = \left(c + \sqrt{c^2 + \frac{X}{3}}\right)^2}}$

and of course your optimum spirit is X minus your optimum intellect.

Conclusions
After plugging in the above formulas into a spreadsheet and trying out various values, I noticed the following:

1. The amount of time in the FSR has a huge impact on the relative value of int versus spirit.
2. If you're within the 5 second rule for a significant period of the time, int is generally more valuable for both holy and discipline priest. This is only counting mana regen, however, and the difference is fairly small for holy priests with lots of stats.
3. As has been noted many times before, discipline priests have hardly any reason to actively seek spirit ever. Not that it doesn't help at all, but you will pick up more than you need incidentally.
4. For holy priests, it's a harder call and at higher stat levels, their optimum spirit values approach their optimum intellect values even assuming 80% in FSR.

[edit:] I should emphasize that the values I have for k' may not approximate those seen in practice, and that could matter. k' is suppose to represent the total Mp5 one sees from all mana returns based on intellect (e.g. anything based off mana pool size), and ideally I'd like to see lots of log parses and actually measure mana returns. The actual values for k' might vary a lot and might differ significantly from the values I'm currently using. So interpret the thresholds I've posted above with some caution.

[edit #2:] After further review of expected returns from rapture for discipline priests, I revised the k' estimate for discipline to 0.750. With very efficient healing and good rapture returns, the value could be even higher. Under almost any reasonable set of assumptions, intellect is extremely likely to be more valuable than spirit to discipline priests.

Shatter Combo w/ Fries · 10/25/08, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Observer

Good summary. It seems to buck the currently circulating conventional wisdom that Renew isn't worth casting any more.

What talents/glyphs are assumed? All of them (besides high Holy)?

5/5 Twin disc, 5/5 MA, that's about it... base values otherwise for both. The renew glyph is irrelevant, and any other improvements available (while 51 points in disc) to both spells can cancel each other out with renew taking a slight lead that wouldn't affect the standings anyway (although it is significantly 'easier' to glyph flash heal rather than, as mentioned before, find room for 3 more points in holy for imp. renew) enough to shift the results one way or another.

At this time, I would probably go ahead and say it is not a bad decision to just retire renew at something like 22% crit. This is lower than my math and admittedly based on my gut instinct, but I think it is a pretty optimal number, all things considered. Not to mention that raid buffs should push you well into the green zone.

Flash heal has more benefits:
-Stacking grace: even 1 application of grace can make a difference if any damage is taken.
-Speed: Your raid is just plain safer the more time they spend at full hp. There is the possibility of deaths that would not have happened if the person was full hp rather than 85% with renew ticking, etc...
-Inspiration procs on encounters with physical damage

Situations where you would want to bring renew out to play:
-Mobility
-Very predictable dot damage ticks that would be matched by renew in actual healing ticks and time intervals, but this situation probably doesn't exist
-Mobility
-Mobility
-...Mobility

• constantius · 10/25/08, 11:39 PM

The only fights I can think of where Renew is really useful in the T7 content are Sapphiron (as you collapse for Ice Blocks) and Heigan (while running the dance). In every other fight, there's time to stop and cast Flash Heal for a GCD. I can see *maybe* using Renew on 4H if you happen to be swapping across to reset your stacks and you want to leave a bit of healing behind.

I'm hoping they realize there's a problem with Renew and make a couple of tweaks. Increasing the base healing by 10% and changing Imp Renew to be 10/20/30% would make it viable again, without being *too* OP (it's still a lot of mana).

The Not So Evil · 10/26/08, 5:56 AM

I think it will be really hard for a holy priest to achieve anything more than 90% OFSR. As Discipline you do not gain much from being OFSR as well. Of course we really dont know much about fights beyond Naxx-10/25. Anyway, I think for most calculations, the safer bet is keeping 90% time in FSR instead of 80%. For the fights where we can achieve 90%+ time OFSR, the healing usually ain't hard enough to justify stacking Spirit for regeneration.

KalistraMerged · 10/26/08, 7:53 AM

From a disc POV I'm finding getting outside 5 second rule doesn't happen often, because I want to keep grace up (haven't had a bosanc in raids recently). This really pushes me towards Int over Spi.

I would also say that disc from WWS/Recount looks shockingly bad, due to the lack of calculation of absorbtion and mitigation. You have to have a really good raid leader who trusts your judgement about how valuable disc is, fortunately for me, I run the healers in my guild.

Constantius - your sig, Time Enough for Love, great bookl About renew however, I'm simply not casting it often. My thought process goes like this

Is PWS off CD and capable of being cast on MT
Is penance avalaible
Has the tank tanked enough damage to require FH/GH
Is my POM off CD

Only if all the above situations are 'no' would I cast renew (normally), the only time it realistically comes into play is a movement heavy fight.

beann · 10/26/08, 8:15 AM

Originally Posted by KalistraMerged

From a disc POV I'm finding getting outside 5 second rule doesn't happen often, because I want to keep grace up (haven't had a bosanc in raids recently). This really pushes me towards Int over Spi.

I would also say that disc from WWS/Recount looks shockingly bad, due to the lack of calculation of absorbtion and mitigation. You have to have a really good raid leader who trusts your judgement about how valuable disc is, fortunately for me, I run the healers in my guild.

Constantius - your sig, Time Enough for Love, great bookl About renew however, I'm simply not casting it often. My thought process goes like this

Is PWS off CD and capable of being cast on MT
Is penance avalaible
Has the tank tanked enough damage to require FH/GH
Is my POM off CD

Only if all the above situations are 'no' would I cast renew (normally), the only time it realistically comes into play is a movement heavy fight.

One way to extrapolate the amount of "healing" your shields are doing is to take the mana gain from Rapture and remove the part contributed by your direct healing. What is left can be used to determine roughly how much your shields are contributing.

Havoc12 · 10/26/08, 8:51 AM

Originally Posted by The Not So Evil

I think it will be really hard for a holy priest to achieve anything more than 90% OFSR. As Discipline you do not gain much from being OFSR as well. Of course we really dont know much about fights beyond Naxx-10/25. Anyway, I think for most calculations, the safer bet is keeping 90% time in FSR instead of 80%. For the fights where we can achieve 90%+ time OFSR, the healing usually ain't hard enough to justify stacking Spirit for regeneration.

Dont know about that. Blizzard stated they wanted us to stay out of the FSR as much as possible. If that is the case then fights will be tuned around challenging output, rather than raw throughput. 80% means you have to spend 12 seconds out of every minute outside the FSR. Its not easy, but it should be doable.

Model #5: IHC procs giving 'free' mana, as a function of crit
This is an interesting one to model. Here's my rough model, feel free to suggest alternatives or do a better one.

Every percent to crit grants 0.45% chance to proc IHC. Best case, we cast ~ 42 Binding Heals per minute, which grants us 84 chances to gain IHC. Worst case, let's ballpark and say we only cast 10 GHeals, no FHs and no Binding Heals over a minute. Thus each percent to crit grants us a ballpark of 0.21 IHC procs per minute, or roughly 1.3 procs per boss fight (6 minute length).

Since Serendipity cannot proc off IHC heals (unfortunately nerfed), our mana return from these 1.3 free casts can be maximized by using it on Greater Heal, which gives us a mana savings of ~ 1054. Thus we can approximate each point of intellect as 1/167th of 1370 mana, or 8.2 mana, which works out to 0.114 Mp5.

I generally use a value of 2% clearcasting = 1 clearcast every 3 minutes. That requires 75 seconds of flash heal casting time or 125 seconds of gheal casting time, if you add any binding heals it drops further. Overall I find that this is achieved if you spend ~50% of your time casting single target heals, which I feel is a very fair average. I also find a value of 1sec ooFSR per clearcast to be very achievable.

Model #6: Divine Aegis absorption shields restoring mana through Rapture, as a function of crit
This is the one where I'll admit that my math is a bit spotty. I had to make some assumptions, since I don't remember what the finalized version of absorb vs Rapture is for DA. I'm also unsure whether the DAs are rolling or not, since there was some bugs the one time I did test it.

Here's my rough model, feel absolutely free to suggest modifications or fix any errors in my logic.

Every percent to crit grants a 30% of heal shield through Divine Aegis. 2.5% of maximum mana is granted back to the healer as mana return, assuming full absorption (see below). Let's go "best case" and assume that all shields are used fully (full absorption), so every single time you crit, you get back the maximum possible. Disc is going to have higher number of total casts than Holy due to Penance, so let's ballpark it at 40 casts per minute, i.e. 40 chances to crit and proc a Divine Aegis shield which is then absorbed and returns mana through Rapture.

Shaara found that

0.01035*max mana/basemana*amount healed

which I am going to assume, for the moment, applies to the absorption amount as well. In that case, with base mana being ~ 3875, and 20k max mana, a 1500-point Divine Aegis shield would restore 84 mana. You will get (from 1% crit) 2.4 of these shields per fight, or 2.8 mana. Now, divide this again by 166.67, and get 0.017 Mp5 per point of intellect.

The mana return for rapture is easy to calculate if you make a simple assumption: Very few heals can reach the cap. With 9.3k healing required to hit the cap at 80. I don't expect anything except non overhealing crits to reach the cap so I really think that makes it a fair model to use.

Aegis return is very easy to calculate: 0.45/(1-O)*(crit/(1+crit)*effectiveHPS or 0.45*crit/(1+crit)*totalHPS. Total and effective HPS are very easy to calculate from any WWS/healing report.

Rapture returns (effective Heal amount)*k mana, where k = 0.01035*Mmax/Mbase

That means the mana per second from raptuire (MPSrap) is

MPSrap = (effective Heal amount)*k/(casting time) = effectiveHPS*k.

For any spell that procs aegis MPSrap = (c+1)*k*effective HPS, where k = 0.45/(1-O)*(crit/(1+crit)

Thus the return from aegis as well as the HPS increase from aegi rapture can be calculated relatively accurately from a WWS report.

The Not So Evil · 10/26/08, 9:06 AM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

Dont know about that. Blizzard stated they wanted us to stay out of the FSR as much as possible. If that is the case then fights will be tuned around challenging output, rather than raw throughput. 80% means you have to spend 12 seconds out of every minute outside the FSR. Its not easy, but it should be doable.

When did they state that? Sounds like something they might say, but in all reality, only 2 healer classes have enough Spirit to benefit from going OFSR, and thats Druids and Priests. And Druids wants to keep HoTs up effectively making OFSR inefficient for them. I do not think nor hope that Blizzard designs encounters around Priest getting OFSR regen. Hopefully Blizzard will see this might not be the best solution, and fix Priests and Druids to benefit more from Spirit IFSR.

Hegen · 10/26/08, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by constantius

That could be, actually; I was misremembering HoH to have a mana cost, so the channel was I5SR, effectively. I mean, I'm not saying I won't use it. I will, and do all the time on Beta. It's just suboptimal, and any time I do it I feel like I'm sacrificing something for the benefit of my party. I don't like that.

I have tested this a few times on live at 70. The result is that HoH does not trigger a GcD. It also does not seem to put me I5SR. I say "seem" because I only watched the growth of the mana bar, but if was pretty obvious.

So, overall, HoH is actually quite good, provided that we can find enough good "safe" moments where we can channel it.

Mearis · 10/26/08, 10:21 AM

I apologize for asking this - but what do people see as the ideal build for a mixture of raid healing/tank healing at 70? We were going to go back to Sunwell for kicks after a while, and I am most likely spec' ing holy for this.

I was thinking of doing something like this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Any thoughts or feedback?

Lambi · 10/26/08, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mearis

I apologize for asking this - but what do people see as the ideal build for a mixture of raid healing/tank healing at 70? We were going to go back to Sunwell for kicks after a while, and I am most likely spec' ing holy for this.

I was thinking of doing something like this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Any thoughts or feedback?

I'd spec out of healing focus, spell warding and invest my points in desperate prayer, holy reach and healing prayers.

Mearis · 10/26/08, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Lambi

I'd spec out of healing focus, spell warding and invest my points in desperate prayer, holy reach and healing prayers.

Hmm, being without healing focus in Sunwell kinda scares me. Are interrupts that much of a non-issue now?

Observer · 10/26/08, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by The Not So Evil

When did they state that? Sounds like something they might say, but in all reality, only 2 healer classes have enough Spirit to benefit from going OFSR, and thats Druids and Priests. And Druids wants to keep HoTs up effectively making OFSR inefficient for them. I do not think nor hope that Blizzard designs encounters around Priest getting OFSR regen. Hopefully Blizzard will see this might not be the best solution, and fix Priests and Druids to benefit more from Spirit IFSR.

With the Lifebloom glyph, a druid can wait almost 8 seconds before recasting Lifebloom and still keep the stack going. If their other HoTs are still running and no additional healing is required in that period, it's conceivable that a druid could get almost 3 seconds of OO5SR regen on a fairly regular basis.

Similarly, a disc priest can apply Grace with Penance and then effectively have almost 5 seconds OO5SR before Grace fades, since the last tick of Penance will also reapply it. And if you're not worried about Grace, then you'll also have situations where DA + PW:S + Prayer of Mending will be able to hold the tank for quite a while.

It seems very plausible, with the unpredictable nature of tank dodges and such, that healers would have the opportunity to steal these brief intervals on a fairly regular basis. And with mana regeneration being continuous now, you don't have to spend a full 2 seconds OO5SR for it to be beneficial.

Starfire · 10/26/08, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by The Not So Evil

When did they state that? Sounds like something they might say, but in all reality, only 2 healer classes have enough Spirit to benefit from going OFSR, and thats Druids and Priests. And Druids wants to keep HoTs up effectively making OFSR inefficient for them. I do not think nor hope that Blizzard designs encounters around Priest getting OFSR regen. Hopefully Blizzard will see this might not be the best solution, and fix Priests and Druids to benefit more from Spirit IFSR.

They said it specifically about priests and druids while talking about either shamans or paladins. I believe. More or less, divine plea is a mechanic for paladins to use while priests and druids use the OFSR regen.

Anyways, I'll attempt and try the exact post and edit back if/when I find it.

• constantius · 10/26/08, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

The mana return for rapture is easy to calculate if you make a simple assumption: Very few heals can reach the cap. With 9.3k healing required to hit the cap at 80. I don't expect anything except non overhealing crits to reach the cap so I really think that makes it a fair model to use.

Aegis return is very easy to calculate: 0.45/(1-O)*(crit/(1+crit)*effectiveHPS or 0.45*crit/(1+crit)*totalHPS. Total and effective HPS are very easy to calculate from any WWS/healing report.

Rapture returns (effective Heal amount)*k mana, where k = 0.01035*Mmax/Mbase

That means the mana per second from raptuire (MPSrap) is

MPSrap = (effective Heal amount)*k/(casting time) = effectiveHPS*k.

For any spell that procs aegis MPSrap = (c+1)*k*effective HPS, where k = 0.45/(1-O)*(crit/(1+crit)

Thus the return from aegis as well as the HPS increase from aegi rapture can be calculated relatively accurately from a WWS report.

While this is nice, and true for a post-action evaluation, it does absolutely nothing to help us try to model DA procs returning mana as a function of intellect. As someone who pours over WWS after each raid, I can tell you honestly that looking at a single, or even a dozen, WWS reports isn't going to give you anything useful. Far too much time is spent on trash, and far too little on bosses, and even then, the variability week-to-week is intense.

It should be possible to create a rough model, as I did. If you really feel the only way to do this is to estimate rough HpS, then limit yourself to bosses only, and probably agree on a test case of a certain number of bosses where we can see a variability in total time spent casting (and possibly different roles). For example, in BT, I would choose Naj'entus, Mother Shahraz, Council, and Illidan. All the others have long breaks or weird spell choices assocaited with them. For Sunwell, I would choose Brutallus and M'uru and ignore the others.

(and once you limit it that far, getting a reasonable amount of meaningful data would take ages of being the same spec & same gearset, which just isn't going to happen. A ballpark, maybe ... but if that's all we're getting, using a model like mine makes more sense.)

Re: your thoughts on Clearcasting as a mana return. I'm really not concerned with trying to model that. Obviously the higher your crit% the more Clearcasts you get, which will give you yet more chances to get OO5SR. However, if we build the model assuming that the OO5SR time is lumped into the 20% assumption, it should work just fine. As a gauge, on a typical Naxx fight RegenFu was reporting anywhere from 76 to 84% I5SR time for me. And that's with me intentionally overcasting because I was bored. If I was deliberately careful, took OO5SR time when I could get it, etc, etc, I could easily drop it to 70% or lower. That's why 80% is a good 'ballpark' number ... for Holy. For Disc, you could easily argue for 90+, simply because keeping Grace up takes so much work. However, on an easy fight, there's nothing stopping you from letting Grace drop, since your next Penance should put it right back up.

Also, for Havoc: let me introduce you to the Latex command. Your posts are hard to read because of the formulas just blurring.

$T(a_u) = \frac{1}{1-a_0} + \frac{1}{(1-a_0)^2} \frac{a_u}{k} + \sum_{n=2}^{\infty} \left ( \frac{1}{1-a_0} \right ) ^{n+1} \left ( \frac{-(1-a_0-a_c)}{a_c} \right) ^{n-1} \left ( \frac{a_u}{k} \right )^n$

It doesn't support all of the usual LaTeX features, but enough to make pretty formulas, anyway.

lenvik · 10/26/08, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by RootBreaker

The priest gets the threat too.

I know this was a few pages back, but (unless I'm mistaken) there is no healing threat generated from Prayer of Mending anymore on any target (this is how it's working on 3.0.2 live at any rate).

Lambi · 10/26/08, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Hmm, being without healing focus in Sunwell kinda scares me. Are interrupts that much of a non-issue now?

Auras are raidwide nowadays, and holy paladins should have imp. conc. aura which is 55% if I'm not mistaken. So 2 talent points for an extra 15% isn't worth it in my opinion.

Havoc12 · 10/26/08, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by Lambi

Auras are raidwide nowadays, and holy paladins should have imp. conc. aura which is 55% if I'm not mistaken. So 2 talent points for an extra 15% isn't worth it in my opinion.

Imp conc aura will stack with healing focus, so it will mean pushback immunity, however with 55% you are only looking at 0.24 pushback ticks max and less than 0.5 max puhsback. Its like like you can 0.8 or 1 sec pushback to a spell from a stray cleave or an aoe hit.

Lambi · 10/26/08, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

Imp conc aura will stack with healing focus, so it will mean pushback immunity, however with 55% you are only looking at 0.24 pushback ticks max and less than 0.5 max puhsback. Its like like you can 0.8 or 1 sec pushback to a spell from a stray cleave or an aoe hit.

Are you 100% sure they stack in this patch? I need to go test this now, brb with results.

Observer · 10/26/08, 6:58 PM

For most spells, Healing Focus doesn't seem very important, unless pushback occurs with fairly high frequency.

The spell for which it would seem to matter most would be Penance, where any pushback would actually cost you ticks of healing. So if it's possible to get 100% pushback resistance, I think it would be more important for Discipline than for Holy.

On the other hand, you could just PW:S yourself.

Havoc12 · 10/26/08, 8:03 PM

Originally Posted by constantius

While this is nice, and true for a post-action evaluation, it does absolutely nothing to help us try to model DA procs returning mana as a function of intellect. As someone who pours over WWS after each raid, I can tell you honestly that looking at a single, or even a dozen, WWS reports isn't going to give you anything useful. Far too much time is spent on trash, and far too little on bosses, and even then, the variability week-to-week is intense.

It should be possible to create a rough model, as I did. If you really feel the only way to do this is to estimate rough HpS, then limit yourself to bosses only, and probably agree on a test case of a certain number of bosses where we can see a variability in total time spent casting (and possibly different roles). For example, in BT, I would choose Naj'entus, Mother Shahraz, Council, and Illidan. All the others have long breaks or weird spell choices assocaited with them. For Sunwell, I would choose Brutallus and M'uru and ignore the others.

(and once you limit it that far, getting a reasonable amount of meaningful data would take ages of being the same spec & same gearset, which just isn't going to happen. A ballpark, maybe ... but if that's all we're getting, using a model like mine makes more sense.)

Re: your thoughts on Clearcasting as a mana return. I'm really not concerned with trying to model that. Obviously the higher your crit% the more Clearcasts you get, which will give you yet more chances to get OO5SR. However, if we build the model assuming that the OO5SR time is lumped into the 20% assumption, it should work just fine. As a gauge, on a typical Naxx fight RegenFu was reporting anywhere from 76 to 84% I5SR time for me. And that's with me intentionally overcasting because I was bored. If I was deliberately careful, took OO5SR time when I could get it, etc, etc, I could easily drop it to 70% or lower. That's why 80% is a good 'ballpark' number ... for Holy. For Disc, you could easily argue for 90+, simply because keeping Grace up takes so much work. However, on an easy fight, there's nothing stopping you from letting Grace drop, since your next Penance should put it right back up.

Also, for Havoc: let me introduce you to the Latex command. Your posts are hard to read because of the formulas just blurring.

$T(a_u) = \frac{1}{1-a_0} + \frac{1}{(1-a_0)^2} \frac{a_u}{k} + \sum_{n=2}^{\infty} \left ( \frac{1}{1-a_0} \right ) ^{n+1} \left ( \frac{-(1-a_0-a_c)}{a_c} \right) ^{n-1} \left ( \frac{a_u}{k} \right )^n$

It doesn't support all of the usual LaTeX features, but enough to make pretty formulas, anyway.

The formulas are useful for modelling mana return based on intellect. Remember that the k constant is directly proportional to max mana. Since each point adds 16.5 mana you can use 16.5 as max mana to estimate what the return from a single point of int is. You can make a model which will then predict mana return for each spell based on what HPS and what overheal you maintain with it.

Observer · 10/27/08, 6:11 AM

Originally Posted by Thorongil

You should be well aware that this is more of an announcement for a far future. I do not seriously believe, that Blizzard will revamp all 3 talent trees directly after shipping the addon. It´s nice to know they´re trying to reduce this dependancy on the 13 points in disc, however, do not expect this to go live in the next months. Also, without anything specific there´s no possibility to seriously discuss this topic.

For Discipline to be optimal at its tank-healing role, 13 points in Holy are also all but required.