Discipline and Holy WotLK Talent Preview and discussion. - Page 98

Incoherence · 10/27/08, 6:52 AM

Originally Posted by Observer

For Discipline to be optimal at its tank-healing role, 13 points in Holy are also all but required.

A discipline priest without Inspiration is still a fair bit more effective than a holy priest without Meditation.

Thorough · 10/27/08, 7:32 AM

Originally Posted by Iwachiten

Imagine if we could get Renew to take advantage of Rapture as well as to add in a crit chance similar to a Shadow priest's DoTs being able to crit.

Perhaps I am the only one that has noticed this, but Renew can crit now. It seems in all this discussion of renew, no one has mentioned it. While it may not proc DA or rapture, I think neglecting the crit possibility falsely reduces the viability of renew.

If the same crit percentages granted to flash heal are considered for renew, is it still verging on worthless?

Edit to remove useless info

constantius · 10/27/08, 9:21 AM

Originally Posted by Thorough

Perhaps I am the only one that has noticed this, but Renew can crit now. It seems in all this discussion of renew, no one has mentioned it. While it may not proc DA or rapture, I think neglecting the crit possibility falsely reduces the viability of renew.

If the same crit percentages granted to flash heal are considered for renew, is it still verging on worthless?

Edit to remove useless info

Can you confirm (with a log, WWS, etc) Renew critting? I haven't seen a single instance of this so far in 3.0.x, and I still haven't managed to untrain myself from my habit of Renewing things often.

Tainter · 10/27/08, 10:36 AM

While PvP'ing for a few nights I haven't seen Renew crit so far. My crit chance is "only" 8.5%, but I don't think it can crit. It wasn't mentioned on any of the other websites either.

Eshen · 10/27/08, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Mearis

I apologize for asking this - but what do people see as the ideal build for a mixture of raid healing/tank healing at 70? We were going to go back to Sunwell for kicks after a while, and I am most likely spec' ing holy for this.

I was thinking of doing something like this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Any thoughts or feedback?

I would Rec. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.

- With the changes to Spell Push-back (the .5 second -> 1 Second Limit) Holy Focus is no longer needed.
- Spell Warding has never been worth the talent points for PvE.
- Points 14 and 15 in holy right now are kinda terrible. Some people go for desperate prayer some just shove them both into renew I chose renew being that i never had desperate prayer to begin with so i don't really miss it. With the renew glyph and a few points in imp renew it makes it not terrible to cast now and then.
- I have never really seen a holy build that passed over Holy Reach even pre 3.0 but even more so now with CoH being smart you want that extra range so that you always hit the target most needing the heals.
- im 50/50 on lolwell I mean it really is the best heal we have by the numbers but the logistics of it are horrible. If you have your guild trained on how to use it it could work but i would just skip it.
- I have really liked test of faith and i cannot wait until we can put more points into it. Its a passive talent, but those extra CoH crits on low life targets can be life savers. Furthermore, its amazing when you get those 11-12k gheal crits on the tank on brut/illy

Those are my recomendations

~~~Eshen, Mug'thol L4S

Isin · 10/27/08, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Thorough

Perhaps I am the only one that has noticed this, but Renew can crit now. It seems in all this discussion of renew, no one has mentioned it. While it may not proc DA or rapture, I think neglecting the crit possibility falsely reduces the viability of renew.

If the same crit percentages granted to flash heal are considered for renew, is it still verging on worthless?

From about an hour of Hyjal trash last Wednesday, with about a thousand renew ticks, there were 0 crits:
Wow Web Stats

Kirion · 10/27/08, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Eshen

I would Rec. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.

- With the changes to Spell Push-back (the .5 second -> 1 Second Limit) Holy Focus is no longer needed.

Why people are keep saying this? I wouldn't dare to raid sunwell pre-3.0 even with only 1 second pushback few times in fight.

Eshen · 10/27/08, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Kirion

Why people are keep saying this? I wouldn't dare to raid sunwell pre-3.0 even with only 1 second pushback few times in fight.

I think in general there has be a sort of "Value Calculation" of the t1 talents. 5/5 Holy Conc is MUCH better then it was pre 3.0. And with the changes to spell pushback holy focus is sort of an easy target for the extra points to put in Conc. Furthermore, i don't miss it. I have done post 3.0 bt/swp (even t5 content) and the spell push-back was negligible.

~~~Eshen, Mug'thol (lol)

gia · 10/27/08, 1:33 PM

Why people are keep saying this? I wouldn't dare to raid sunwell pre-3.0 even with only 1 second pushback few times in fight.

If you are guaranteed to have imp. Concentration Aura (which is now raid wide) then the value of healing focus is worth a lot less. There also aren't many fights at 80 besides Sapphiron where pushback is an issue. I'm still taking it in my level 80 build though, as disc any damage at all will cut off the third tick on Penance.

Kirion · 10/27/08, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by gia

There also aren't many fights at 80 besides Sapphiron where pushback is an issue. I'm still taking it in my level 80 build though, as disc any damage at all will cut off the third tick on Penance.

I'd say that the chance for 3/3 Imp Conc. aura in raid is somewhat slim, more like 1/3, but that's not the point. It's just that T7 content is easy and there is no fights where this talent shines, and changes to spell pushback have nothing to do with that. When there will be WoTLK fights where 1 sec dealy will equal death of player (or tank), everyone will take this talent again.

Thorough · 10/27/08, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by constantius

Can you confirm (with a log, WWS, etc) Renew critting? I haven't seen a single instance of this so far in 3.0.x, and I still haven't managed to untrain myself from my habit of Renewing things often.

I do not have a WWS. Next time one pops up on Recount I can post that as well. It seems that if a single tick will crit, all the ticks crit. I was shocked myself when I first saw it on patch day, because it was not mentioned.

KalistraMerged · 10/27/08, 3:21 PM

Recount is bugged, its recording lots of things as crits that aren't, so I dumped it.

Proof is: it recorded 3 FH in a row as crits, none triggered DA

Shatter Combo w/ Fries · 10/27/08, 4:28 PM

I won't say it's impossible, but I just jumped off my mount a lot and renewed to full a couple dozen times and didn't see a crit. Sample size was like 100 with around 30% crit, and several inner focused renews.

Don't always trust your mods.

Bohemienne · 10/27/08, 5:30 PM

I'm afraid I don't have any screenshots or WWS confirmations but I was also seeing what seemed to be ticks of Renews critting last night. I was the only healer in the group (only other person in group capable of heals was in bear form) and we were doing HH. I'd tossed a Renew on the bear and was merrily lolsmiting when SCT popped up a healing sticky crit on my screen that was a number of a value appropriate to a Renew crit (~1800 or so, with the Glyph of Renew and 3/3 Imp Renew). I'll see if I can catch a screenshot tonight.

Thorough · 10/27/08, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bohemienne

I'm afraid I don't have any screenshots or WWS confirmations but I was also seeing what seemed to be ticks of Renews critting last night. I was the only healer in the group (only other person in group capable of heals was in bear form) and we were doing HH. I'd tossed a Renew on the bear and was merrily lolsmiting when SCT popped up a healing sticky crit on my screen that was a number of a value appropriate to a Renew crit (~1800 or so, with the Glyph of Renew and 3/3 Imp Renew). I'll see if I can catch a screenshot tonight.

SCT is how I originally caught it. The crits are not terribly frequent (occurring less then my crit percentage would indicate) and seem to last the duration of that particular renew.

It seems odd that I would randomly get a renew healing for 150% of normal without it being a crit. The first occurrence was on a mage friend while we were questing together. This eliminates passive and active abilities that only tanks have.

This then leaves me with a new question. If renew is not critting, then what could be causing rare 150% increases in the ticks? Can this then be used to increase the viability renew in a raiding situation?

Havoc12 · 10/27/08, 8:07 PM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

The mana return for rapture is easy to calculate if you make a simple assumption: Very few heals can reach the cap. With 9.3k healing required to hit the cap at 80. I don't expect anything except non overhealing crits to reach the cap so I really think that makes it a fair model to use.

Aegis return is very easy to calculate: 0.45/(1-O)*(crit/(1+crit)*effectiveHPS or 0.45*crit/(1+crit)*totalHPS. Total and effective HPS are very easy to calculate from any WWS/healing report.

Rapture returns (effective Heal amount)*k mana, where k = 0.01035*Mmax/Mbase

That means the mana per second from raptuire (MPSrap) is

MPSrap = (effective Heal amount)*k/(casting time) = effectiveHPS*k.

For any spell that procs aegis MPSrap = (c+1)*k*effective HPS, where c = 0.45/(1-O)*(crit/(1+crit)

Thus the return from aegis as well as the HPS increase from aegi rapture can be calculated relatively accurately from a WWS report.

$i$ = int --> 0.006% crit and 18.975 mana

Assumption 20% crit and 19000 mana before int is added.

[e] I thought about it and realised that I missed a few things and there was a much easier and more correct way of doing this, so I rewrote the post completely [/e]

Adding a point of crit raises this to 20.006% crit and 19018.975 mana.

The return from rapture without aegis from a single point of int is very simple as the relationship between max mana and int is linear:

$mp5rap(1i) = 5*k'*totalHPS*(1-O)$ ,

where $k' = 0.01035*\frac{18.975}{3863} = 5.0839*10^{-05}$ and O is overheal

Thus $mp5rap(1i) = 0.000254195*totalHPS*(1-O)$

The contribution from aegis is a bit more complicated.

retun from aegis as a function of added int (i) is

$k(i) = 0.01035*(19000+i*18.975)/3863$

also

$mp5aegis(i) = 5*0.45*\frac{crit+0.00006*i}{1+crit+0.00006*i}*k(i)*totalHPS$

Thus the mana return from adding a single point of int is

$mp5aegis(1i) = mp5aegis(1)-mp5aegis(0)$

$= 5*0.45*0.01035/3863(\frac{0.20006}{1.20006}*k(1) - \frac{0.2}{1.2}*k(0)*totalHPS$

k(1) = 0.050956871 and k(0) = 0.050906032

The whole thing collapses to
$mp5aegis(1i) = 2.38416*10^{-05}*totalHPS$

Adding the two together we get

$1-->mp5_1int(a+r) = (0.000254195*(1-O)+ 2.38416*10^{-05})*totalHPS$
for a critable spell that procs rapture

and

$2-->mp5_1int(a) = 2.38416*10^{-05}*totalHPS$
for any critable spell

---------------------------------------

Now using formulas 1 and 2, let us try some numbers

20% overheal

1000 totalHPS

$1 --> 0.2271976$ mp5 per point of int

$2--> 0.0238416$ mp5 per point of int.

2000 totalHPS

$1 --> 0.4543952$ mp5 per point of int

$2--> 0.0476832$ mp5 per point of int.

4000 total HPS

$1 --> 0.9087904$ mp5 per point of int

$2--> 0.0953664$ mp5 per point of int.

-----------------------------------------------

40% overheal

1000 totalHPS

$1 --> 0.1763586$ mp5 per point of int

$2--> 0.0238416$ mp5 per point of int.

2000 totalHPS

$1 --> 0.3527172$ mp5 per point of int

$2--> 0.0476832$ mp5 per point of int.

4000 totalHPS

$1 --> 0.7054344$ mp5 per point of int

$2--> 0.0953664$ mp5 per point of int.

---------------------------------------

I think the results speak for themselves

Aegis and rapture increase the value of int for discipline by a very large margin.

The return from penance alone scales linearly with intellect. The return from aegis is a bit tougher as it is not linear with intellect and depends on your current crit.

The full formula (without numbers) for rapture mana return as a function of added intellect (i) for those interested is

$mp5rap(i) = 0.000254195*(1-O)*i*totalHPS$

The full formula for aegis return through rapture is

$mp5r_a(i) = 6.02835*10^{-6}*(\frac{(crit+0.00006*i)*(Mmax+18.975*i)}{1+crit+0.00006*i} - \frac{crit*Mmax}{1+crit})*totalHPS$

Iwachiten · 10/27/08, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bohemienne

I'm afraid I don't have any screenshots or WWS confirmations but I was also seeing what seemed to be ticks of Renews critting last night. I was the only healer in the group (only other person in group capable of heals was in bear form) and we were doing HH. I'd tossed a Renew on the bear and was merrily lolsmiting when SCT popped up a healing sticky crit on my screen that was a number of a value appropriate to a Renew crit (~1800 or so, with the Glyph of Renew and 3/3 Imp Renew). I'll see if I can catch a screenshot tonight.

Are you sure it wasn't a glyph of PW:S crit?

I've never once seen Renew crit.

Ever.

Thorough · 10/28/08, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Iwachiten

Are you sure it wasn't a glyph of PW:S crit?

I've never once seen Renew crit.

Ever.

I am very sure. SCT spells out the names clearly with icons. I have seen it using Blizzard's in game combat text. While the spell name is not attached, it is difficult for a spell not cast to crit. My glyph crits for a little less than a normal renew tick. A crit of a 150% of a renew tick across 4-5 ticks is not possible for any Glyphed PW:S. If the amount itself weren't prohibitive, the weakened soul debuff is.

These occurrences are rare. If I play for the entire day, I will see one or two. My crit is low, but not that low. I am not sure what could cause a 150% increase in a spell at random intervals, except for a spell critical.

In trying penance, I have set up SCT to clearly identify my crits. I did this to see if DA has a hidden CD. Recount was discounted as a source of information previously. I have shown a screenshot of TopScoreFu showing a crit with renew. The only other things I can offer at this point are my words and an attempt to screenshot a crit either in the Blizzard combat log, SCT, or both. It has however been established that I am not the only person experiencing this.

We are still left with several questions. If the same crit percentages granted to flash heal are considered for renew, is it still verging on worthless? If renew is not critting, then what could be causing rare 150% increases in the ticks? Can this then be used to increase the viability renew in a raiding situation? Could it be that the rarity of renew crits is related to a partial (or accidental) implementation of a future WotLK dynamic?

Starfire · 10/28/08, 2:49 AM

Err. I seem to recall my Renew critting on HH as well. I just wrote it off as some sort of bug with Parrot. I'll be keeping an eye out on this and I'll screenshot my combat log if I see it happen again.

I ponder, were you guys running Prayer of Mending? Did you/do you have the Renew glyph?

Thorough · 10/28/08, 3:00 AM

Originally Posted by Starfire

Err. I seem to recall my Renew critting on HH as well. I just wrote it off as some sort of bug with Parrot. I'll be keeping an eye out on this and I'll screenshot my combat log if I see it happen again.

I ponder, were you guys running Prayer of Mending? Did you/do you have the Renew glyph?

It has happened with and without the glyph, as CoH and penance (more often as penance). PoM was on the target for all but the very first time I saw it.

Mearis · 10/28/08, 5:55 AM

Not strictly PvE - but did we find out if being unable to target penance on self is intended? As far as I know they haven't spoken out about it at all, I don't understand if it is a channeled spell limitation or a class balance issue.

Malica · 10/28/08, 8:10 AM

I have 7 WWS reports since 3.0 and no renew criticals, I have never seen it in the combat text either. I have been trying to use it more often recently and with 22% crit chance it probably would have crit by now if it could, perhaps it is just a bug.

Levva · 10/28/08, 9:45 AM

Originally Posted by Thorough

I am very sure. SCT spells out the names clearly with icons. I have seen it using Blizzard's in game combat text. While the spell name is not attached, it is difficult for a spell not cast to crit. My glyph crits for a little less than a normal renew tick. A crit of a 150% of a renew tick across 4-5 ticks is not possible for any Glyphed PW:S. If the amount itself weren't prohibitive, the weakened soul debuff is.

These occurrences are rare. If I play for the entire day, I will see one or two. My crit is low, but not that low. I am not sure what could cause a 150% increase in a spell at random intervals, except for a spell critical.

In trying penance, I have set up SCT to clearly identify my crits. I did this to see if DA has a hidden CD. Recount was discounted as a source of information previously. I have shown a screenshot of TopScoreFu showing a crit with renew. The only other things I can offer at this point are my words and an attempt to screenshot a crit either in the Blizzard combat log, SCT, or both. It has however been established that I am not the only person experiencing this.

We are still left with several questions. If the same crit percentages granted to flash heal are considered for renew, is it still verging on worthless? If renew is not critting, then what could be causing rare 150% increases in the ticks? Can this then be used to increase the viability renew in a raiding situation? Could it be that the rarity of renew crits is related to a partial (or accidental) implementation of a future WotLK dynamic?

Using addons like SCT & TopScoreFu to "prove" a point is not a great idea. Both use a tag to indicate crit or not that isn't necessarily related to whether a spell crit, especially if you are using any of the addon builds pre 21st October.

Instead type /combatlog and capture all the data to the log file - saved in world of warcraft/logs/combatlog.txt. This is the raw data that contains a log of everything that happened during a fight. If it doesn't say crit in the log file it didn't happen.

Edit: Ok so my sig is WRONG for this forum - sorry. My main is a Shammy, my former main that I still raid on is a Priest.

Havoc12 · 10/28/08, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Eshen

I would Rec. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.

- With the changes to Spell Push-back (the .5 second -> 1 Second Limit) Holy Focus is no longer needed.
- Spell Warding has never been worth the talent points for PvE.
- Points 14 and 15 in holy right now are kinda terrible. Some people go for desperate prayer some just shove them both into renew I chose renew being that i never had desperate prayer to begin with so i don't really miss it. With the renew glyph and a few points in imp renew it makes it not terrible to cast now and then.
- I have never really seen a holy build that passed over Holy Reach even pre 3.0 but even more so now with CoH being smart you want that extra range so that you always hit the target most needing the heals.
- im 50/50 on lolwell I mean it really is the best heal we have by the numbers but the logistics of it are horrible. If you have your guild trained on how to use it it could work but i would just skip it.
- I have really liked test of faith and i cannot wait until we can put more points into it. Its a passive talent, but those extra CoH crits on low life targets can be life savers. Furthermore, its amazing when you get those 11-12k gheal crits on the tank on brut/illy

Those are my recomendations

~~~Eshen, Mug'thol L4S

What is so great about test of faith? Its only 6% more healing more crit. An 11k crit with 3/3 test of faith is a 10383 crit without test of faith. In your case with 2 points only its even less of a difference. Its so small that its perfectly possible to have a test of faith crit that is smaller than a non test of faith crit.

Crits on CoH or any other spell don't save lives.

Taking 2/2 SoL instead of IHC is also very strange. What could possibly be the justification for that? If you dont want to take lightwell than IHC+test of faith take priority over healing prayers/SoL, so 1 point max can go to SoL.

==============================

I have not been able to get even 1 renew crit in more than 100 ticks (25 full renews). The renew crit observations are perhaps a bug?

==============================

On the subject of renew versus flash heal. Renew is not worthless for holy, especially with the renew glyph. There are some forms of damage which are well suited to renew. Its always worthwhile for a holy priest to keep renew up on tanks. However a lot of the traditional uses of renew now go to flash heal. For example a target with a stable 3k deficit is now best healed with flash not with renew. A target with a stable 3.5-4k deficit on the other hand is best healed with renew or gheal, not with flash heal.

For discipline renew is a non issue. Discipline PvE does not want to cast renew at all. Renew does not proc aegis or rapture and it eats up effective healing that could be healed with spells that do proc rapture. The less renew a PvE disc priest casts the better off he is. Some forms of damage are well suited to renew ofc and in such cases if PWS is on cooldown renew can be used to avoid wasting casting time, but in general disc PvE has next to no use for renew.

lenvik · 10/28/08, 11:52 AM

For people talking about mods reporting crits on stuff like renew, it might be old mods incorrectly parsing the new combat log parameters. the _HEAL and _DAMAGE suffixes had a few parameters added in Wrath (overhealing, overkill) which shifted previous parameters outward in the list. Since overheal is where crit used to be, maybe the mod is reporting how many ticks had overheal of 1 or more (since crit is recorded as 1 vs nil). Just a suggestion, haven't got any hard evidence.

As an example:

2.x - _DAMAGE: amount, school, resisted, blocked, absorbed, critical, glancing, crushing
3.x - _DAMAGE: amount, overkill, school, resisted, blocked, absorbed, critical, glancing, crushing

On beta when they added overkill my damage schools were showing up in the partial resist in SCTD, as you can see that the school parameter was where the resisted parameter was previously.