Elitist Jerks WotLK Healing Compendium v3.0 [theorycraft, specs, etc]

03/14/09, 11:35 AM   #2071
Lambi
Don Flamenco

Blood Elf Priest

Talnivarr (EU)
 Originally Posted by Tainter So my question is: What is it that gives Disc a big edge? Or is it rather a smaller edge?
I put myself in the DPS group, giving me the opportunity to PoH between tank healing as disc. As disc I can actually do this without the fear of the tank dying because of:

1. Haste on demand through Borrowed Time.

2. Alot better reactive heals. At some stages of the fight, you'll want the tank to be as close to 100% hp as possible before a breath and be shielded just before it hits. 2-3 penance ticks followed by a shield will do this, and a holy priest isn't close to managing the same effect. On top of that you gain BT to quickly fill up the tank after that mighty breath.

3. Sick mitigation. One 15% talent and one 40% talent on shields is a major thing. Couple that with Divine Aegis and better inspiration uptime and you'll rock the hard, predictable and slow hitting fights.

03/15/09, 1:21 AM   #2072
Cryllis
Glass Joe

Crushridge
 Originally Posted by typobox My math could be off, but I'm showing Serendipity as a buff to HPS if you're willing to switch from straight GH spam to a FHx3->GH rotation. Assumptions: 2500 spellpower, 20% haste, 20% crit raid buffed ((1 + (0.5 * .2)) = 1.1 crit modifier) Average GH = 4250, coefficient with 3/3 Empowered Healing = 1.8135 Average FH = 2040, coefficient with 3/3 Empowered Healing = 0.9068 HPS for GH spam: $1.1 \times \frac{(4250+(1.8135 \times 2500))}{\frac{2.5}{1+.2}}= 4637.82$ FH->GH: $1.1 \times \frac{(2040+(0.9068 \times 2500)) + (4250+(1.8135 \times 2500))}{\frac{1.5}{1+.2} + \frac{.8 \times 2.5}{1+.2}}= 4937.083$ FHx2->GH: $1.1 \times \frac{2(2040+(0.9068 \times 2500)) + (4250+(1.8135 \times 2500))}{2\frac{1.5}{1+.2} + \frac{.6 \times 2.5}{1+.2}}= 5103.34$ FHx3->GH: $1.1 \times \frac{3(2040+(0.9068 \times 2500)) + (4250+(1.8135 \times 2500))}{3\frac{1.5}{1+.2} + \frac{.4 \times 2.5}{1+.2}}= 5209.14$
Can someone update with the new values?

03/15/09, 2:52 AM   #2073
Xaphania
Von Kaiser

Dwarf Priest

Azjol-Nerub
 Originally Posted by Cryllis Can someone update with the new values?
I did the math and got:

GH spam = same, obviously (4637.82)
FHx1 + GH = 4670.21
FHx2 + GH = 4686.74
FHx3 + GH = 4696.77
(fixed because I messed up the formula the first time and didn't notice)

I just replaced the .8, .6, and .4 with .88, .76, and .64 respectively (the new values for Serendipity).

Last edited by Xaphania : 03/15/09 at 9:49 AM.

03/15/09, 2:56 AM   #2074
TheDoctor
Piston Honda

Human Priest

Arathor
 Originally Posted by constantius The main point is that for pure tank healing, Holy (with 3.0.8 IHC) gets 2 out of every 7 casts hasted from IHC. On top of that, all geared holy priests run 21% raid-buffed haste, similar or better to Disc, where you have little need to stack haste. And in a small nitpick, you're assuming +7% crit to Disc talents, which is only true if you use the GCD every 15 seconds to keep Weakened Soul up. That lowers your HpS somewhat, since even at a hasted GCD, PW:S isn't going to break 4500 HpS. It's not a lot, and I'm not claiming that Disc is bad (nor did I ever). I reiterate, however: Disc is not magically better than Holy. They're actually remarkably comparable with current builds. It's a shame that 3.1 completely breaks Holy, while leaving Disc throughput relatively unscathed. Basically, you claim you can divide by 2.36 average for Disc, and 2.5 for Holy. In actuality (this being baseline), it works out to more like 1.8 for Holy, and ~ 2.0 for Disc. That changes your numbers above (Disc coming in around 6230 HpS, Holy at 7050). Also, I'm not sure where the spellpower numbers came from, and I'll admit to being somewhat ignorant as to what most Disc priests end up at, but when I spec Disc, in my (mostly) BiS gear, I run around 2400 spellpower raid-buffed, including flask. As holy, I have 2900 (+500, not +325). That skews the numbers even more in favor of Holy, assuming you want to make the Gheal vs Gheal argument. Of course that argument is specious ... but it proves a point.
My raid buffed haste is over 20% and depending on the fight I can gear for more. Haste is actually better for Disc throughput than Crit at the moment due to DA not stacking. It will be much closer in 3.1 as DA will stack but my math shows that Haste will still be slightly better most of the time.

Disc healing on a tank should maintain WS 100% of the time. Not to mention that a Disc PW:S is ~6500 total throughput. Considering that the shielding on a tank is never wasted it is by far one of our best button presses.

My raid buffed spell power is 2597 which puts me in the range of ~300 away from a Holy Priest.

Last edited by TheDoctor : 03/15/09 at 3:19 AM.

03/15/09, 3:03 AM   #2075
Tainter
Don Flamenco

Frostwhisper (EU)
 Originally Posted by TheDoctor Disc healing on a tank should maintain WS 100% of the time. Not to mention that a Disc PW:S is >6500 total throughput.
I disagree with this. If you know that occasionally the tank gets hit really hard then you want to save the Shield for that, like Sarth +3 breath. Also, even with ~20% haste your PW:S will still take ~1.2 seconds, making it closer to 5.5k HpS.

If you can't join them?
Beat them.

03/15/09, 3:21 AM   #2076
TheDoctor
Piston Honda

Human Priest

Arathor
 Originally Posted by Tainter I disagree with this. If you know that occasionally the tank gets hit really hard then you want to save the Shield for that, like Sarth +3 breath. Also, even with ~20% haste your PW:S will still take ~1.2 seconds, making it closer to 5.5k HpS.
Saving the shield is really only really necessary when the "big hit" you are talking about is enough to kill the tank and with the PW:S first they survive. This is definitely the case with some breaths during the Sarth3d encounter.

For Sarth you would want to put a PW:S up before each breath... In most cases though your WS downtime will be minimal even in this case. The breath CD is slightly less than the WS buff length and he normally uses it very soon after the CD is up. Which means you will either miss a breath and a shield following it prevents a melee swing death or you hit the shield before each. Net result still at or near 100% uptime.

My shield is good for ~6450 the glyph is another ~1100 in healing, so 7550/1.2 = ~6291.6.

03/15/09, 3:27 AM   #2077
Xaphania
Von Kaiser

Dwarf Priest

Azjol-Nerub
 Originally Posted by Tainter I disagree with this. If you know that occasionally the tank gets hit really hard then you want to save the Shield for that, like Sarth +3 breath. Also, even with ~20% haste your PW:S will still take ~1.2 seconds, making it closer to 5.5k HpS.
Yeah, I basically had 2 tank healing modes when I was disc (recently switched to holy): either spamming--keeping weakened soul up 100% and spamming flash heal and penance--or reactive healing, like on Sartharion-3, where I would cast as many spells were needed to get through the ever-increasing melee damage, and wait till I saw a breath casting to use PW:S, then use the Borrowed Time to penance+GH after the breath.

Edit: He has a point though, I'm sure Weakened Soul was still up at least 75% of the time.

03/15/09, 3:30 AM   #2078
Squeakster
Piston Honda

Dwarf Priest

Eitrigg
 Originally Posted by Tainter I disagree with this. If you know that occasionally the tank gets hit really hard then you want to save the Shield for that, like Sarth +3 breath. Also, even with ~20% haste your PW:S will still take ~1.2 seconds, making it closer to 5.5k HpS.
I agree that Sarth3D would be an exception to casting PWS every 15 seconds, but I have not seen a boss in Ulduar (from those tested so far) that would require us to save PWS for something, so as far as Ulduar is concerned I think that casting PWS every 15 seconds is optimal.

03/15/09, 9:05 AM   #2079
Lambi
Don Flamenco

Blood Elf Priest

Talnivarr (EU)
 Originally Posted by Xaphania I did the math and got: GH spam = same, obviously (4637.82) FHx1 + GH = 4670.21 FHx2 + GH = 5082.29 FHx3 + GH = 5574.13 I just replaced the .8, .6, and .4 with .88, .76, and .64 respectively (the new values for Serendipity).
I'm far from a math genius, but how can FHx3 + GH be better HPS in it's nerfed condition than before? Is it supposed to be 5174.13 HPS? I'm at work and can't really insert the formula anywhere.

Edit: And to add a point. The optimal HPS must be from BHx1 + GH. BH gives you 2 stacks Serendipity since it effectively heals two people at the same time in one cast.

A very interesting calculation to see would be the HPS difference between doing 2x PoH in a row vs 1x BH + 1x PoH.

Last edited by Lambi : 03/15/09 at 10:31 AM.

03/15/09, 9:43 AM   #2080
Xaphania
Von Kaiser

Dwarf Priest

Azjol-Nerub
 Originally Posted by Lambi I'm far from a math genius, but how can FHx3 + GH be better HPS in it's nerfed condition than before? Is it supposed to be 5174.13 HPS? I'm at work and can't really insert the formula anywhere.
...Because I totally did it wrong, oops. One second and I'll fix it.

03/15/09, 10:54 AM   #2081
Tainter
Don Flamenco

Frostwhisper (EU)
 Originally Posted by Squeakster I agree that Sarth3D would be an exception to casting PWS every 15 seconds, but I have not seen a boss in Ulduar (from those tested so far) that would require us to save PWS for something, so as far as Ulduar is concerned I think that casting PWS every 15 seconds is optimal.
But then again two thirds of the bosses are as of yet unknown, hehe.

If you can't join them?
Beat them.

03/15/09, 2:07 PM   #2082
Squeakster
Piston Honda

Dwarf Priest

Eitrigg
 Originally Posted by Tainter But then again two thirds of the bosses are as of yet unknown, hehe.
As far as I know there are going to be 14 bosses, 12 of which have been tested on the PTR so far. Only ones we haven't seen are Yogg-Saron and Algalon.

The Flame Leviathan
Ignis the Furnace Master
Razorscale
XT-002 Deconstructor
Kologarn
The Iron Council
Auriaya
Freya
Hodir
Thorim
Mimiron
Yogg-Saron
General Vezax
Algalon the Observor

 03/15/09, 3:38 PM #2083 Tainter Don Flamenco   Tainter Undead Priest   Frostwhisper (EU) Alright, I obviously didn't pay enough attention. However, from the feedback on the PTR it looked like pretty much all the encounters were tuned to be fairly easy. I'd hazard to guess that they'll be harder on live, than they are on the PTR now. And then of course there'll be hard modes. If you can't join them? Beat them.
03/15/09, 3:48 PM   #2084
Elimbras
Don Flamenco

Dwarf Priest

Eitrigg (EU)
 Originally Posted by Tainter I disagree with this. If you know that occasionally the tank gets hit really hard then you want to save the Shield for that, like Sarth +3 breath. Also, even with ~20% haste your PW:S will still take ~1.2 seconds, making it closer to 5.5k HpS.
Factor in the BT buff you get (used with GH, or even better, instant / penance + gh) and the glyph, and that's fine ;-) Even better than fine.

03/15/09, 8:39 PM   #2085
Sharajat
Piston Honda

Night Elf Priest

 Originally Posted by Sinndir Just to show how good haste is here is my parse of a 25-man Naxx PuG I do on fridays. (My guild does it on wednesdays when I have a night class). Wow Web Stats My HPS was 6500+, I honestly don't think any disc parses will be that high on a single tank. I also didn't have time to swap gear and had on 600+ haste instead of ~500 and a few more crit %.
Divine Aegis doesn't show up on the meters, for the Nth zillionth time.

Also mathematically, disc can output that much. That you post a method that deliberately hides at least 20% of disc's healing instead of arguing the math (which does not favor you) is telling. Please, post math, or cease to argue this silly, silly point. Holy cannot output Discs' HPS, either sustained, or burst. Holy conc is haste on random proc. Borrowed Time is haste on demand. Penance is a greater heal on crack. Divine Aegis makes your crits much, much better than Holy's crits.

If your job is mixed tank/raid healing, or mostly raid healing, holy is the far more viable of the two. CoH is very, very nice and disc loses a lot of throughput on raid heals.

Last edited by Sharajat : 03/15/09 at 8:50 PM.

 Elitist Jerks WotLK Healing Compendium v3.0 [theorycraft, specs, etc]