A Dwarf Priest has an entry that breaks down and weighs WoTLK Priest healing stats. Her work covers both Holy and Disc talent paths and goes as far as providing some final weighting ratios that in my opinion are pretty solid. It's a little old though--dated Nov. 7--so I wanted to get some peer input from the raiding Holy/Disc priests on this forum, to see if they agree/disagree with it (and why, if it applies).
I'm also curious about this. I've been tentatively using her weights as guidelines for Holy gear in heroics (my guild hasn't quite started Naxx yet), and my impression is that, among other things, Int is weighted a bit high relative to Spirit:
Spellpower: 0.60
Spirit: 0.54
Intellect: 0.74
Crit: 0.15
Haste: 0.35
MP5: 1.00
However, that impression might be completely misguided, and it might also be due to the fact that I don't have Replenishment on all the time, as I imagine one would in 25-mans (more or less). Overall the weights seem solid; I'm certainly able to heal competently if I put on gear that scores highest in this system, although heroics might not be a good test. Does anyone else have an opinion on these stat weights? Anyone have any of their own that they've been using?
I fail to see how this glyph is useful for Loatheb, at all.
Well, assuming you would charge a PoH to land as the debuff runs out, then start COH spamming.
The HoT from the glyph would tick and heal more, in that short time, while not really inhibiting your COHing
Alternately, in any other situation the glyph just ups POH by 20%. Seems like a great use of a major glyph, considering nothing else (save for glyph of COH) is remotely as good.
Well, assuming you would charge a PoH to land as the debuff runs out, then start COH spamming.
The HoT from the glyph would tick and heal more, in that short time, while not really inhibiting your COHing
Alternately, in any other situation the glyph just ups POH by 20%. Seems like a great use of a major glyph, considering nothing else (save for glyph of COH) is remotely as good.
The Flash Heal glyph is very good. Beyond that, I suppose it's up in the air, but in my experience, due to the party limitation finding uses for PoH outside of Loatheb and some 5man content other heals are almost always a better (read more efficient) choice.
Well, assuming you would charge a PoH to land as the debuff runs out, then start COH spamming.
The HoT from the glyph would tick and heal more, in that short time, while not really inhibiting your COHing
Alternately, in any other situation the glyph just ups POH by 20%. Seems like a great use of a major glyph, considering nothing else (save for glyph of COH) is remotely as good.
Really depends if the Glyph causes 6 ticks, 3 ticks, or 2 ticks. 2 ticks is useless for Loatheb. 3 ticks *might* get 1 off. The only way it's really good is if it's 6 ticks, a la Lifebloom. Anyway, it's really not a spell we use *that* much, given the RSTS of most of the raid damage so far in WotLK.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
It does 2 ticks. So you you'd only get 1 tick or an extra 10%. Hardly needed when the fight is cake anyway buy yea, all preference on what to do with your 3rd major i guess with CoH and FH as givens.
i swear that SoL procs to other priests. i've been disc spec and gotten procs somehow. has that happened for other people? is that intentional? if so and you have 2 holy priests should both still have SoL? i think so but just checking
i swear that SoL procs to other priests. i've been disc spec and gotten procs somehow. has that happened for other people? is that intentional? if so and you have 2 holy priests should both still have SoL? i think so but just checking
sorry i dunno how to just link the item but that item... it dropped tonight and it seems to be the best imo
I believe the reasoning behind [The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments] over that Malygos item is because the mp/5 is less valuable a stat for us than the haste especially, but even than crit.
Last edited by Allesin : 12/02/08 at 5:10 AM.
Reason: Spelling > me
yea i gave that robe to the disc priest (which i was gonna be but sumhow ended up not being lol) but yea i mean that's a lotta haste to forego... still. nice stats on the malygos chest. i guess the mp5 helps a disc priest more though and so the item is definitely more important for a disc priest than a holy priest
well just 1/2 in grace, because i will heal the whole time the mt... so the buff couldnt run out even with "just" 50%
and healing focus because penace is channled.
he means that he would skill, improved renew to hot people if the tank doesnt need heal... well i think, that this is unecassary, i am not a raidhealer i am tankhealer...
but in the end i dont know whats better...
has anybody experiences with healing as diszi in 10er/25er?
until yet i was holy...
but the content isn really challenging so we are testing around. hopefully that t8 inis will require more skill....
i swear that SoL procs to other priests. i've been disc spec and gotten procs somehow. has that happened for other people? is that intentional? if so and you have 2 holy priests should both still have SoL? i think so but just checking
I have had SoL proc many times when not speccing into it. Sometimes this will happen to me multiple times a minute, other times seems to not happen for hours. Unless I've had some highly unusual luck, it would seem to me as if this is caused by some sort of interaction with the buff/something of another class, as I only can recall it happening in groups of some sort (instances/battlegrounds)...
Okay, I know this is probably off topic, but I just want to bring up how Critical Rating is SO MUCH BETTER than Haste.
I want 30% Crit, which I'm close too, even with a moonkin in raid, I want 30% (25% passive, 5% talents). Alright, my math isn't thorough and open to be proven wrong, but 30% Critical, spamming Greater Heal, (65% chance on Crit, - thats like a 17% chance per cast). Okay so 17% of spells have that 30% haste from Holy Conc. so that in itself is 6% haste right there. The more haste, the more passive haste it turns out be.
Let alone the fact, more surge of light procs, inspiration procs and it saves you the cost of spells that cost so much of our base mana pool. Haste is great if its only a good item with Spirit & Crit, but getting Crit where you can just seems so much better.
Thoughts :P?
+ + the upcoming removing GCD off Surge of Light will just mean -o- -m- -g-
I have had SoL proc many times when not speccing into it. Sometimes this will happen to me multiple times a minute, other times seems to not happen for hours. Unless I've had some highly unusual luck, it would seem to me as if this is caused by some sort of interaction with the buff/something of another class, as I only can recall it happening in groups of some sort (instances/battlegrounds)...
We talked about it earlier, I still think it has something to do with prayer of mending crits, where your prom overwrites the other priests prom, it crits and you get the SoL proc.
On another note, I have had multiple times that while spamming flash heal I will get a SoL proc while I am casting the next one. I finish the cast and the SoL proc gets eaten, eventhough I had to use a full cast time for it. Is this a bug or a client/server problem? Can't recall if this has been brought up here before.
It's a client/server latency problem. I think Improved Holy Concentration can have the same issue. Has anyone noticed whether SoL casts affected by this issue cost mana?
We talked about it earlier, I still think it has something to do with prayer of mending crits, where your prom overwrites the other priests prom, it crits and you get the SoL proc.
On another note, I have had multiple times that while spamming flash heal I will get a SoL proc while I am casting the next one. I finish the cast and the SoL proc gets eaten, eventhough I had to use a full cast time for it. Is this a bug or a client/server problem? Can't recall if this has been brought up here before.
The SoL is very buggy I got procs from it (didnt have it speced at that time) and I was the only priest in the raid.
but I just want to bring up how Critical Rating is SO MUCH BETTER than Haste
My own thinking on this is the opposite (haste is generally better than crit), and here's why:
For pure heals-per-second or burst throughput, haste rating is better than crit rating. This would be true even if the average increase from 1% crit were as great as the average benefit from 1% haste, because haste is always on whereas even 30% crit can and will have critless periods of 10+ seconds fairly often. And in a situation where throughput is the crux, healers need reliability.
But on top of that, the increases in heals-per-second from crit aren't even that good.
- you need more crit rating for 1% gain in crit (45 versus 33 as I recall)
- the 50% extra healing from the crit itself will often overheal
- taking advantage of IHC or Sol procs requires you to make use of particular spells that may not even be what you need right now
The upshot is that the main benefit of crit ends up being increased efficiency and mana regen; for a Holy priest, crit means a lot of free casts, more time outside the five second rule, and more Serendipity procs. Since haste helps regen not at all, we can definitely give crit the edge here - but if mana is my problem there are other stats I would rather have. And mana isn't that much of a problem, generally.
The main argument I can think of for crit in a raid is that someone should be maintaining Inspiration on the tank(s). But that's a job for a Disc priest with Penance, and you seem to be coming at this from a Holy perspective.
I also think it's easy to like crit more than haste because it Makes Things Happen (ooh, shiny SoL procs!) whereas haste is kind of invisible. But in the end haste is always useful and always on whereas crit is kind of a solution in search of a problem.
When I evaluate stats, I view crit as a regen stat not really a throughput stat. In this way, I value crit very similarly to spirit and int: "Do I have enough mana to make it through a fight comfortably". The first week we did Patchwerk, I was begging for an innervate. By the second week (at 23.8% crit and 20k mana) I had no mana issues at all.
With this being the case, I've stopped stacking crit/int/spi and moved to haste/sp. The haste from IHC is nice and there are several times where I've had it save a tank's life but it is too unreliable to stack crit for increased IHC uptime and as many people have documented in the past, the increased healing from crit is too unreliable to be worth stacking.
Nidaba said it best; we're not paladins and IHC isn't illumination. Crit went from being useless to useful, but it's still a secondary stat for holy priests.
When I evaluate stats, I view crit as a regen stat not really a throughput stat. In this way, I value crit very similarly to spirit and int: "Do I have enough mana to make it through a fight comfortably". The first week we did Patchwerk, I was begging for an innervate. By the second week (at 23.8% crit and 20k mana) I had no mana issues at all.
With this being the case, I've stopped stacking crit/int/spi and moved to haste/sp. The haste from IHC is nice and there are several times where I've had it save a tank's life but it is too unreliable to stack crit for increased IHC uptime and as many people have documented in the past, the increased healing from crit is too unreliable to be worth stacking.
Nidaba said it best; we're not paladins and IHC isn't illumination. Crit went from being useless to useful, but it's still a secondary stat for holy priests.
I completely agree here. The first week I started grabbing many crit based items and enjoyed it tremendously. I started to notice that I was not ever running out of mana even when I was trying to at times. With the excess amounts of crit, wouldn't I rather drop a few of that and pick up some reliable throughput? Crit is unreliable when compared to haste and spell power. The amount of crit you want should just be enough to provide a nice amount of inspiration/SoL/HC&IHC procs which is slated at ~20% for me unbuffed. You want haste for throughput, or spell power if you feel that would help more. Spirit and intellect should fall into place as you gear up, and gemming should reflect on what you feel you're lacking while waiting for the last few pieces. At least this is the way I'm taking a spin on things at the moment.
Idk maybe its just me but i really, really value crit highly. I mean most of the content currently can be trivialized by gear of the tanks, but the more i stack crit the less mana problems i seem to have. This past naxx clear felt so easy compared to when i wasn't stacking crit. Here is a WWS of the naxx clear Wow Web Stats
if you look i have like 46% crit on Gheal for patch, even though it wasnt needed due to our DK tank dodging and parrying all the time.
Anyway, right now unless something changes with healing, i plan to stack as much crit as possible.
Idk maybe its just me but i really, really value crit highly. I mean most of the content currently can be trivialized by gear of the tanks, but the more i stack crit the less mana problems i seem to have. This past naxx clear felt so easy compared to when i wasn't stacking crit. Here is a WWS of the naxx clear Wow Web Stats
if you look i have like 46% crit on Gheal for patch, even though it wasnt needed due to our DK tank dodging and parrying all the time.
Anyway, right now unless something changes with healing, i plan to stack as much crit as possible.
The problem with your statement is that "most of the content currently can be trivialized by gear of the tanks" is true. The rest isn't necessarily. Your stacking crit doesn't really mean much in the greater context of you having lots of mana, and your tanks approaching the DR on dodge/parry along with real AC levels and high HP pools.
Naxx was trivial for me in the second week as well. It doesn't necessarily mean the crit made it so. Going from 20% crit to 30% crit gains you ... what? Detail some math showing that the throughput from gaining 10% crit outweighs the associated 15% haste (because of exponential costs in ilvl points), and we're interested. Most of us had Sunwell gear with heavy haste, though, and we know how valuable it can be, both from a theorycraft PoV and a intuitive one.
[e] Thought: consider what 20% haste does for Penance, which is already an extremely high HpS spell. Extend that to the realization that you can drop GHeal entirely from your rotation if you have enough throughput on Penance, which leads to dropping 4-piece T7 (and the worst of the 5 pieces, i.e. chest+some). There's some interesting ideas there.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
I´m finally able to provide a reasonable WWS-log from a 25man raid and want to discuss some empiric data concerning Disc. It´s a log from our guilds first Naxx25 clear last weekend, though it only features Thaddius, 4HM, Sapphiron and 1 Kel´Thuzad try. While that´s far from perfect I think some interesting conclusions can still be drawn.
Firstly, for the sake of comparability and understandability, I have to state some baseline assumptions/facts. The Priest I´m talking about is me ('Idril' in the Log). We have a second Disc Priest in our raid, but his gear as well as his playstyle are still very improveable (you´ll know what I mean as soon as you look at the stats/gear) thus I focus on my own data. Also, I mainly did raid healing, since tank healing is hardly a problem in those fights.
My relevant raidbuffed stats sum up to:
Mana: ~25.000
Spellpower: ~2.250
Crit: ~30 %
Base Mana: 3.862
Secondly, the formulae/values I used for my calculations are the baseline ones from the OP in this thread. The only different value is the Base Mana (3.862 in my calculations, Constantius statet ~3.875, I haven´t yet figured out where the difference comes from, I can only suspect it might be a racial difference).
Thirdly, a sad thing is that I am still unable to provide any hard facts on Power Word:Shield or Aegis, since WWS does not take them into account. I hope WWS logs will be able to provide analysis on this in the future, since it´s quite clearly traced in the in game combatlog. I could only make indirect assumptions concerning PW:S based on the Healing done by the Glyph, however, this brings a lot of speculation with itself thus I´ll refrain from doing it.
What I could do was looking at the numbers concerning Rapture returns and actual mana cost of FH/Penance/(GH).
Basically Rapture caps at about 9.330 points of effective healing (just solve the Rapture formula with regards to *amounthealed* to get this value). However, I´m going to look at the Sapphiron fight specifically for my following calculations. Sapphiron for the reason, that it´s probably the most straining fight concerning healing in Naxx25.
That´s quite interesting, since it means that an average Flash Heal in a 22 % overhealing scenario costs only 416 Mana with my values, saving more than 30 % of the baseline cost (695). The latter also means, that I´ll cast FH more efficient than a Holy with Serendipidity even if his FHs overheal 100 % of the time (Note that this does not include returns/savings from HC/SoL, since the basic assumptions to calculate those values would mess up this post. Also, it was just a comparison for the sake of getting a feeling what those 30 % mean, not to raise Disc over Holy).
We already knew that Penance is incredibly efficient, yet, I wouldn´t have valued it that efficient. Basically, Penance heals for over 9k, costing only about 140 Mana when I overheal no more than 20 %. With a 25k Mana Pool 140 simply is nothing, especially for a heal that brings such a lot of goodies (3 Stacks Grace, 3 Crit Chances, 9k heal on average in less than 1,7 seconds). Actually, 3 seperate ticks are perfect for Rapture, since you won´t ever hit the cap with one hit unless you heal for more than 25k with the whole Penance (which is pure theory).
On a sidenote: If you compute Penance with 0 overhealing it actually nets you mana back with a mana pool of 25k+.
Lastly Greater Heal: (note, though, that I only casted 7 GHs in this fight, so the numbers are not actually what I would call very reliable, I´ll just do the calculation for the sake of completion)
I don´t really want to draw big conclusions since the amount of data for GH is small, however, the tendency is the same as with Flash Heal, meaning about 30 % reduced Mana Cost, bringing GH in Holy´s region in terms of mana efficiency.
Same conclusions can be drawn for the Kel´Thuzad fight since the numbers for Overhealing are fairly comparable.
I especially want to draw everyone´s attention to a field that has been widely disregarded when talking about Disc. Raid Healing, that is. Nearly everybody does agree that Disc is a nice and competitive tank healer. As I think my data show this is only half the story.
Raid damage hardly ever needs to be healed instantly. There are time frames to heal up the raid, Sapphiron and Kel´Thuzad are perfect examples for this. As my numbers show, Disc is a valuable raid healer in such a fight due to the efficiency. With overhealing in ranges of 20 % a Disc will be able to Flash Heal nearly until eternity due to the high Rapture returns. When healing a raid, Flash heals averaging 4k do matter. Also, in fights where the raid needs to be split up like Kel Thuzad CoH and/or ChainHeal *might* not net to its full potential due to range problems while Flash Heal is hardly susceptible to such issues.
I do not want to elevate Disc over Holy or, say, a Resto-Shaman. In most cases those are better raid healers, no question. But throughput is not the only important value. It´s nice to have high throughput, however, efficiency is also a fine thing (since we´re talking about progress raiding, not raiding content overgeared) and Disc does offer it, no matter if you heal raid or a tank.
That´s the conclusion I do want to make. Disc can be an extremely efficient healer if played properly and Disc can perform other tasks than tank healing without much problems. Note that the raw throughput of a Holy Priest will be higher in any case, no argumentation about that (Holy´s GHs, FHs, PoMs will always excel Disc´s in terms of raw healing).
Finally, I hope that measurement can be found to include the absorb numbers of Disc into the done comparisons, since Shield/Aegis are important parts of the specc as well.
The only fight I've really felt challenged on as a healer has been 10-man 3 drake sartharion, and for that encounter I would much prefer haste over crit (I picked up an egg after a few hours of progress on this guy after skipping over it before). I think the best choice is to just pickup both the spirit/haste and spirit/crit items and tailor your set to the encounter at hand. As far as farming naxx goes, your gear really doesn't make much a difference as Constantius stated earlier.
12/01/08, 10:30 PM
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