Feel free to call me a noob or irgnorant, but i fail to see why the CoH nerf is bad. This post is not meant to be offensive but i'm willing to take the risk.
In 10 mans, i hardly ever feel the urge to use CoH. Some trash in naxx, and a few bosses (Saphhiron, Thaddius, Leothab), certainly have use for CoH. But besides that, CoH is not needed in 10 mans (and the use of "needed" in the last sentence may even be exaggerated). For Malygos or Sartharion CoH is not needed at all (topping up people after vortex is nice, they could also click the light well. And for sartharion, yes, well, you can save those 5 people who brain-afk and stand in the lava waves with CoH, but the should have avoided it in the first place).
For 25 mans, the one big difference is basicly 15 more people standing in the fire or eating the aoe (volleys that can't be avoided by movement). From my personal experience, CoH helps in these fights. While i won't bet any money that the vast majority of these encounters are actualy trash mobs, CoH might really prevent wipes IF it was spammable. But i really doubt this is the case for boss fights. And for my very own 2 cents, i feel stupid when just spamming CoH. I have'nt been to Malygos-25 yet. And topping up people might be harder after vortex (maybe CoH spam during vortex is feasible, in the 10 man version it's pretty much a mana waste).
That beeing said, the only thing that worries me is the group restriction on our other aoe heals. And there is no real reason for me to worry about it even: the raid leader has to (that is, to set up groups so it can be aoe healed by me, if needed. At first people might complain, they are not healed instantly. But PoH should do fine).
So, after lining out how (from my personal experience) raid healing is at the moment, i hardly see why anyone actually is worried about the nerf. Sure, monitoring an additional cooldown sucks. But adding one more cooldownto the three others (inner focus, PoM and shadowfiend) is not really bad, is it?
After this wall of text, finally to the remarks made at the beginning. Some posts in this thread really make it look like you guys are only brought to raids to spam CoH. Something is afoot here ...
Now, I'll be able to cast it once. And in the long run, that's going to give the other healers something to do.
Const, I'm blatantly taking your words out of context here, but the above is not a reason to be changing anything. "Let's decrease the effect of defense rating! It will give healers something to do! CoH did need a change.. But I was really hoping to see something creative from Blizzard here on the spells and spell mechanics. I feel really let down about it....
I think it has a lot to do with blizzards goals of making raids easily accessible. Not just from a standpoint of difficulty (which needs to be notched up a bit pls -- srsly. 1 shotting most of the naxx25 bosses, and full clearing your first raid set is not good). I'm also concerned that while moving from 7 to 6 or 5 healers will make your healers more challenged, it will also up your dps quite a bit, possibly giving you those one or two raid buffs you might have been missing (boomkin crit aura etc). With higher DPS, and more raidbuffs, your healers will be doing better, and your dps will be killing the mobs faster.
But even more so blizzard making the raids more accessible from the standpoint of homogenizing the classes. Looking at Naxx, there is a significant downside to making the same content into casual raids. It seems like the real difference between 10 and 25 is more boss hp, more boss dmg, and more people possibly screwing up (Heigan/Grobbulus/Thaddius)..
I guess what I'm trying to say is that With 25 man only raids, you could make dmg shapes and abilities that only a certain class could effectively deal with...with 7 slots, it's very likely that you will have that particular class. The vortexes are a good example.. they seem designed with priests in mind... and though I didn't use CoH that much to deal with it, it was still a place in the game where priests were needed.. Where our unique combination of spells made the difference. Rather than change CoH and make the actual spell more interesting (again stacking debuff of increased mana cost is a much better solution), they just slapped a cooldown on it and said we'll adjust the content.
That's what scares me... with content that is both 10 man and 25 man, you're severely constrained.. a 10 man group will have 2-3 healers...With 2 slots, it's lowest common demoninator damage shapes and abilities. That sounds like more boring homogenized/"make sure any healing class can heal it" stuff down the road.
Now call me a pessimist, and tell me blizzard is new to all this, and they'll get better at making 25 man content down the road, but I'm not so sure...GhostCrawler says that people are constantly discussing everything over there, so I'm absolutely sure the above was brought up at least 6 months ago.. yet here we are.
Last edited by Nomad_Wanderer : 12/12/08 at 1:37 AM.
We actually found the DPS burns to be easier with only 5. It's crazy healing, but doable even with the crazy lag on our server. As it was put very succinctly in our healer channel: If the DPS fail their check before the healers get to the hard part- then it doesn't matter how hard the healing would have been. We did a night with 6 healers and consistently failed to get the drakes down in time and slashed it to 5 the next night and got him down in 6 or 7 attempts.
We learned and killed it twice with 7 healers; dropped to 6 and found it very doable. I'd hate to do 5, though -- that would just be too risky, riding the bleeding edge of doability, and waiting for RNG. DPS should be able to handle it with 7 healers / 3 tanks; if you give them 1 more, that's your margin of error.
Anyway, the point is just that there are very few situations where spammed CoH is truly necessary, and they've promised to tone that down (Malygos vortex) to compensate. Which is good, because that phase pisses me off to no end. It's easy on 25-man, and stupid on 10-man, especially if you're undermanning it. It's very obvious they scaled the damage up quite high expecting CoH to outheal it, when the reality is, PoM does a lot more healing in 10-man than CoH does due to the range.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
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(again stacking debuff of increased mana cost is a much better solution), they just slapped a cooldown on it and said we'll adjust the content
...
This was suggested in the official forums and gunned down with the the explanation, that it would favor bringing more CoH priests: if you bring one more priest, the increased mana cost is basically split between all priests. Sure, with a 6 sec. cooldown, it is somehow true with priest stacking as well, just saying ...
There is easily a delicate balance where a stacking mana increase would balance between "let shamans help" and "stack priests" Blizzard is just too lazy to find where that point is at. Also if it scaled improperly priests would just stack regen to stupid levels.
It needs a fix, and a CD is the quickest solution to the problem. I guess if it means Ulduar and beyond comes out faster so be it? Somewhere deep down blizzard knows this will require more attention in the near future.
This is a very very relevant question. Whether this damage is healed by 1 person or 300 in a real raid senario is completely irrelevant. What we want to know is how a single class does on its own. This is a crucial question.
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The senario presented is valid and it accurately shows the full extent of the CoH nerf. That means without mitigating factors, namely a situation which allows effective use of PoM, PoH or Lightwell, priests are the bottom of the pile at dealing with aoe damage.
Two issues here:
1. This is only a crucial question regarding 5-man instances or maybe specific raid scenarios in 10-mans where one out of two healers can become incapacitated while exactly the AoE scenario you describe takes place.
In every well coordinated raid, raid healing is a team effort. As long as each healer can provide competitive HPS within a reasonable time frame, there's no problem. It does not matter who exactly heals which target, as long as each healer is able to pull his share. Just focusing on a single raid healer does not help - it just detracts from reality.
2. You draw general conclusions, specifically ("That means without mitigating factors, (..) priests are the bottom of the pile at dealing with aoe damage.") from a very, very specific scenario (and unless specific WoTLK encounter names are given, a fictional scenario, too).
Without going into the exact details of the numbers, the following kinds of changes to your scenario immediately change the outcome:
- involve movement on the part of the healer
- change number of targets. for example, from 5 to 6
- if the targets are fully random, so you cannot use PoH, why do you assume positioning allows for using CH (or CoH at that)?
- PoH not usable
- timing and intervals of the AoE damage
- predictability
The mitigating factors you talk about are included in your scenario as well, however on the part of the other classes. Not having to move is a mitigating factor for shamans and paladins. Having all of the supposedly random targets in range for a CH jump is a mitigating factor for shamans. Convenient alignment to the casting times of a shaman is also a mitigating factor.
Your conclusion should read: "I can construct a scenario where priests are the bottom of the pile at dealing with the aoe damage of that scenario.".
This is, however, true for all classes.
Originally Posted by Jeremy Clarkson
The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.
Looking through the patch notes I dont see anything regarding PW:S and the mana return when casted on people who doesnt use mana. ie Warriors, rogues ect. Are we to assume that its working as intended or have they just not come around yet and fixed it?
E Pluribus Unmn!
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There is easily a delicate balance where a stacking mana increase would balance between "let shamans help" and "stack priests" Blizzard is just too lazy to find where that point is at. Also if it scaled improperly priests would just stack regen to stupid levels.
It needs a fix, and a CD is the quickest solution to the problem. I guess if it means Ulduar and beyond comes out faster so be it? Somewhere deep down blizzard knows this will require more attention in the near future.
You're still going to have a problem in content where mana is no problem. CoH will be OP there cause its one of the fastest and highest hps spell with too many good opportunities for using it in 25-man. Plus my main (personal) argument for this would not just be balance, but more like how it is too easy and boring in its current state.
An AB style debuff wouldn't have to be +mana cost, it could also be -healing done by CoH/WG. IMO that would work a lot better. Something like -25% healing done by CoH/WG stacks 3 times lasts 6 seconds (numbers totally ripped right out of my a** - it would obviously need some testing).
constantius, if you don't mind I have some questions.
Would you also include [Flask of the Frost Wyrm] and [Very Burnt Worg] ? I can't see a reason why 38mp5 can be better than 125 spell power for example, and the haste from the food can be pretty needed too.
Also, why not [Reckless Monarch Topaz] instead of [Potent Monarch Topaz], or its better to use crit gems with current BiS gear already equipped? Although then why not pure crit gem to yellow socket as well?
One last thing is I would like to ask is about [The Egg of Mortal Essence], why is it bad? If it overlaps with IHC the proc is wasted? But then again [Forethought Talisman] can be wasted too, since it doesn't work with coh and (concerning raid healing) the proc can be wasted too, or it works with PoM?
If you disagree please tell me.
Sorry for my somewhat bad english.
Nothing wrong with [Flask of the Frost Wyrm] if you have enough regen (note that [Flask of Distilled Wisdom] remains the preeminent regen flask, for what it's worth). [Very Burnt Worg] is a fine food; my inclination is to note that it's almost trivial to hit a reasonable level of haste, and I'd rather add crit or spirit via food than yet more haste.
If you're referring to my "BiS Set" re: [Reckless Monarch Topaz], note the levels I computed for full raid buffs. I don't need more haste in the set, but crit is always useful, even if marginally so past a certain point. If I were to gem for haste, then logically I would drop a haste item from the set and replace it with a crit item, which accomplishes the same thing. As far as pure crit gems, I'm not such a fan, simply because spellpower remains a better throughput stat than crit, so a hybrid gem seems like a better choice for a yellow socket. That's just my opinion, though, YMMV.
As far as [The Egg of Mortal Essence] goes, it's not a *terrible* trinket. The reason I don't promote using it is that it really doesn't see a lot of use except in a pure spamming situation, which honestly doesn't happen all that much, and will happen even less when they nerf CoH. You don't see a tremendous benefit when spamming Flash Heal; it does drop your FH down to ~ 1.0 seconds for a few seconds, but I honestly don't consider that a great benefit as compared to an on-use regen effect or a passive regen effect. If you were comparing [Forethought Talisman] to [The Egg of Mortal Essence], you would have a point: it comes down to whether you consider 13 spellpower more useful than the possible usage of the haste proc; your call on that one. Personal choice has a lot to do with how we gear and gem!
Finally, please update your profile accurately before a mod comes along and slaps you with an infraction. Welcome to the boards; please read the rules.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
An extension on Infenwe's idea, even though it's moot point since Blizzard doesn't take suggestions, but I think it would have been interesting to add a debuff to anyone hit by circle of healing that reduces the healing by any future CoH's by 50% for 3-5 seconds or until a different heal/hot hits the target. The only thing I really don't like about it, is it allows CoH to heal more to the targets that are already receiving heals, instead of the targets that haven't gotten any other heals, but given the smart targeting nature of players/spells I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing. CoH spam is still possible, but it's infinitely less rewarding than CoH on top of prom/renews or in combination with CH or druid aoe heal.
Nothing wrong with [Flask of the Frost Wyrm] if you have enough regen (note that [Flask of Distilled Wisdom] remains the preeminent regen flask, for what it's worth). [Very Burnt Worg] is a fine food; my inclination is to note that it's almost trivial to hit a reasonable level of haste, and I'd rather add crit or spirit via food than yet more haste.
I totally agree, just felt a bit "ichy" not seeing these consumables in your main post tho. For example with my current gear i have low haste, only 7,5%, but 15% crit and 1100+ spirit unbuffed, so im using haste food atm. Its really hard to get haste up while gearing, at least from my perspective.
Originally Posted by constantius
so a hybrid gem seems like a better choice for a yellow socket.
Well its still pure haste gem in your BiS gear post. Only pointing out a little contradiction, probably just needs an update.
Originally Posted by constantius
Finally, please update your profile accurately before a mod comes along and slaps you with an infraction. Welcome to the boards; please read the rules.
Looking through the patch notes I dont see anything regarding PW:S and the mana return when casted on people who doesnt use mana. ie Warriors, rogues ect. Are we to assume that its working as intended or have they just not come around yet and fixed it?
This was the first thing I looked for in the patch notes, and I was a little annoyed to see there was nothing about this there...
Searching for "rapture power word: shield", I found a locked thread on the forums with a GM response that said simply: "This issue is documented internally. Thanks for your report!" So I'm not quite sure what to think. Good thing the mana efficiency of disc is already amazing, even with the bug.
Seeing as it was brought up again, I just felt like pointing out it's a brilliant disc trinket, if anyone was considering whether or not to grab it. I do agree it's quite 'meh' for holy.
An extension on Infenwe's idea, even though it's moot point since Blizzard doesn't take suggestions, but I think it would have been interesting to add a debuff to anyone hit by circle of healing that reduces the healing by any future CoH's by 50% for 3-5 seconds or until a different heal/hot hits the target. The only thing I really don't like about it, is it allows CoH to heal more to the targets that are already receiving heals, instead of the targets that haven't gotten any other heals, but given the smart targeting nature of players/spells I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing. CoH spam is still possible, but it's infinitely less rewarding than CoH on top of prom/renews or in combination with CH or druid aoe heal.
I agree that this would be a much more elegant solution to the problem. I dont think anyone doesnt agree that COH is OP. Myself and our other holy priest absolutely destroy meters. I think the reason people are upset is 6 secs is probably much longer than it should be. 2-3 secs I could easily get behind or this example where it gains a stacking debuff I could agree with. With a 6 sec CD they should increase the coefficient accordingly OR also make prayer of healing a "smart heal" as well. By Nerfing COH that far your really just making sure people stack shaman.(Which IRONICALLY is exactly what they are trying to avoid.)
As far as them nerfing encounters, I feel its retarded of them to make this content any easier than it already is. Im sorry but crying over the vortex wins you zero sympathy from me. Even clothies should have enough hp to survive with little/no healing. This homogenization is crap and it is taking all of the flavor out of the game. I understand its a business and they are in it to make money but wasnt the point of making 10 man versions of everything so that the socials would have raids they could do and the people who wanted the challenge could continue on? This large of a nerf either signifies a huge drop in the amt of damage that will be going on or a complete lack of foresight/thought from blizzard.
What i dont quite understand, They tried CoH 6 sec cd before. Obviously they werent too happy about it cause we ended up with no CD on CoH. So what prevents them from trying a slighty lower cd? Like 3 sec for example.
About the BiS list, there's been some discussion in this thread about the setitems and the 4p bonus it provides.
I'm curious which items would be BiS if someone wouldnt go for a t7 setbonus. I came up with a few items but since i want to end up with roughly 25% crit and 25% raidbuffed aswell i'm not quite sure which items would be best.
Cheers for the fine compendium once again, very helpfull as usual.
As far as them nerfing encounters, I feel its retarded of them to make this content any easier than it already is. Im sorry but crying over the vortex wins you zero sympathy from me. Even clothies should have enough hp to survive with little/no healing. This homogenization is crap and it is taking all of the flavor out of the game. I understand its a business and they are in it to make money but wasnt the point of making 10 man versions of everything so that the socials would have raids they could do and the people who wanted the challenge could continue on? This large of a nerf either signifies a huge drop in the amt of damage that will be going on or a complete lack of foresight/thought from blizzard.
I was trying to make the point of that it looks like they used the "make any healer able to do it" mentality for tuning these encounters, and that's because in the 10 man version, you only get 2-3 healing slots, which definitely won't have as much healer class diversity as a 25 mans 6-7 slots.
What does that mean for a priest? well, I think it means that we aren't going to be as needed, by design(no individual class is). That content is being made for the Healer role, rather than individual classes, and if that's being done, then how a class performs amongst their peers in the healer role becomes very important.
I don't really care about the CoH nerf. I didn't use it that much before (other than when I had to take a bio during a boss/pull and used scotch tape to tape the keybing down). [b]I do care about the above reasoning of, as individual classes matter less, and Roles (Tank, MeleeDPS,RangedDPS,Healer) become more important, than just go get the Best in Class for things. Best HPS, Best HOT, etc...
Do I have this wrong? Does anyone feel like Priests do anything better than some other class? I thought for a time our forte was Raid healing on the move/where no cast time was needed... Now that's gone, I think Priests being jacks of all trade, being second or third best at everything, is now a problem, not a benefit. .
That's a problem. One way to make naxx more interesting is to decrease the number of healers... use 6 or even 5.. Why wouldn't raid leaders go with 2 pally/2druid/2shaman, (or maybe 1priest/1pally/2druid/2shaman)... Using the "make any healer able to do it" mentality of tuning/boss fight creation, why do you need someone that really has everyone's abilities, just can't do them as well as the original?
How do I plan on trying to get around that? Not sure. Maybe I'm chicken little'ing all of this, and you will still continue to see 2 or even 3 priests in 25 man content. But I might do some TC on how close I can get to pally's HPS, or how close I can get to a Shamans' Raid healing, using the priest spells. Is it even possible to compete with a pally/druid/Shaman with different gear/gem/enchant/talent choices?
Originally Posted by Mephitol
About the BiS list, there's been some discussion in this thread about the setitems and the 4p bonus it provides.
I'm curious which items would be BiS if someone wouldnt go for a t7 setbonus. I came up with a few items but since i want to end up with roughly 25% crit and 25% raidbuffed aswell i'm not quite sure which items would be best.
Cheers for the fine compendium once again, very helpfull as usual.
Why get the t7 4 piece? for patch? when are you casting enough GH for this to be a valuable bonus? The same applies to the 2 piece.. For Saph? Malygos? There really isn't that many fights were an additional bounce is going to do you anything.
Get the t7 pieces. they are upgrades. But don't expect to keep them on for any amount of time. there is no real benefit to the bonuses other than for a few boss fights
The same applies to the 2 piece.. For Saph? Malygos? There really isn't that many fights were an additional bounce is going to do you anything.
I disagree completly. ESPECIALLY with the incoming 6 sec CD on Coh, an extra bounce off prom is HUGE. Mines been hitting lately for 4.5 or so(off the top of my head). On every cast every 8 secs? Yeah... it will add up.
I disagree completly. ESPECIALLY with the incoming 6 sec CD on Coh, an extra bounce off prom is HUGE. Mines been hitting lately for 4.5 or so(off the top of my head). On every cast every 8 secs? Yeah... it will add up.
What fights are you referring to? Have you been really keeping track of how many bounces you're getting before recasting?
I'm struggling getting 3 or 4 out of mine.
I do have the t7 2 piece myself. Will I think twice about breaking it if a better piece drops? Not at all.
Saph and malygos would be the two biggest yes. However, without knowing what content is to come, and knowing they are taking away our biggest tool for dealing with raid wide dmg, I think milking every bit you can out of prom is a very good idea. The 4 set I agree, its fairly worthless, much the same as T6 was. I think the only time I made use of it was on Brut on a night where comp was horrendous. Any encounter with any consistant on going dmg will most likely activate that last bounce though.
Now all that being said Ill agree that their are other pieces of gear out there that I think could potentially be better. BUT in the very near future all those abilities that weve been thinking of as situationally useful are going to be staples again. Those bonus's shouldn't just be discarded hastily.
Well its still pure haste gem in your BiS gear post. Only pointing out little a little contradiction, probably just needs an update.
As far as pure crit gems, I'm not such a fan, simply because spellpower remains a better throughput stat than crit, so a hybrid gem seems like a better choice for a yellow socket. That's just my opinion, though, YMMV.
Bolded the important parts in Const's response. Haste is a better throughput stat than spell power, so there's no reason to use a spell power/haste gem in a yellow socket if going for throughput or aiming for a certain haste threshold.
12/12/08, 12:11 AM
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