I thought that once the Grace stacked to the point it was reducing damage more than the BoSanc it overwrote it. So, basically, if you keep a Grace stack up, it become better DR than BoSanc.
Unless this has changed?
If I remember correctly, Grace fully stacked up reduces the same amount of damage as BoSanc. So while the game will normally pick the strongest effect to apply, it will never effectively 'overwrite' BoSanc. Maybe when it's fully stacked it will be considered the active damage reduction buff, but since both are of the same power, that's only of a theoretical interest.
The one thing I am wondering, looking at Disc (and its bugs) as something to try out next patch, is how letting Divine Aegis stack with itself would be fundamentally imbalanced, as GC seems to indicate. The way I see it, Divine Aegis is the healing equivalent of Ignite, which they currently allow to stack with itself per individual mage. This is the way I would expect Divine Aegis to work as well, and in a combat situation I do not see how this would be in any way imbalanced. The only way to get an extremely massive shield is to have an even bigger amount of critted direct heals applied, and basically I'd consider DA an added crit modifier in a new flavor. I realize the issue which has been brought up here of stacking up a massive shield before combat, which is something to consider (though indeed rage generation will suck initially); however wouldn't it be possible to solve this with some sort of 'in combat' toggle so that DA would only be applied during combat? This shouldn't really impact PvE or PvP balance in any negative way (make it even so the shield if on will just expire on the timer, but don't let it be applied during combat, if that's an issue in PvP), and there must be some way to code this given for instance the way Charge works (for non-Prot warriors these days). Overall it doesn't sound like a problem without solutions, the question I guess is if it's considered worth the coding time, or whether the easy way out is taken by just changing the talent instead of the coding. (Spirit Link comes to mind as the primary example, but was hardly the first I believe)
Divine Fury is still a must-have in my opinion. Basically, you only want to cast GH if Penance&PW:S are on cooldown. However, the times you need to cast it you´re in dire need (-> you need throughput to prevent somebody from dying, you´d use flash if you just needed to top up somebody). Not having it specced in those situations is plain stupid in my opinion, since you´re gimping yourself at a situation that is already bad for you. It´s exactly these situations where we haven´t got other tools available that we want to be manageable. No reasonable Disc Priest will have a problem to keep anybody up in case nothing is on cooldown.
Also, Renew is the most useless healing spell that exists in a Discs spellset (for raids, at least). There is only a tiny amount of situations where you are unable to Flash Heal and thus have to use Renew, it´s not worth it (why exactly has been disussed in quite a length in this thread already).
If you really want to skip Divine Fury the only alternative I´d see is Spell Warding. Back in Sunwell quite some Priests did specc it due to massive AoE- or RSTS-damage. It´s not really worth speccing at the present raid status, however, it *could* be a possibility in Ulduar. We´ll have to see.
As for Holy Reach: I could see some use in it for a Disc, however, I´d rather put those points elsewhere. The times you cast PoH or Nova you´re group is normally clumped anyway. In spread-out fights like Sapphiron P1 or Kel´Thuzad you´ll use FH to do group-healing thus I don´t really see the big benefit from Holy Reach. This has always been a talent that is heavily linked to CoH.
Lastly Grace. True, the damage reduce does not stack with BoS, this particular feature is near-wasted as long as you have a Prot Paladin around. However, do not forget that 3 stacks of Grace also enhance your healing done by 6 %. That´s not nothing. Any reasonable Holy Priest will specc Spiritual Healing, Grace gives you the same benefit for even less points, do not underestimate or even neglect this perk (yes, the application is not as universal as the one of Spiritual Healing, but as long as you do at least *some* single target healing it´s still useful).
Divine Fury is still a must-have in my opinion. Basically, you only want to cast GH if Penance&PW:S are on cooldown. However, the times you need to cast it you´re in dire need (-> you need throughput to prevent somebody from dying, you´d use flash if you just needed to top up somebody). Not having it specced in those situations is plain stupid in my opinion, since you´re gimping yourself at a situation that is already bad for you. It´s exactly these situations where we haven´t got other tools available that we want to be manageable. No reasonable Disc Priest will have a problem to keep anybody up in case nothing is on cooldown.
Yeah we do, Pain Suppression is a sweet tool in these cases!
Originally Posted by Thorongil
Lastly Grace. True, the damage reduce does not stack with BoS, this particular feature is near-wasted as long as you have a Prot Paladin around. However, do not forget that 3 stacks of Grace also enhance your healing done by 6 %. That´s not nothing. Any reasonable Holy Priest will specc Spiritual Healing, Grace gives you the same benefit for even less points, do not underestimate or even neglect this perk (yes, the application is not as universal as the one of Spiritual Healing, but as long as you do at least *some* single target healing it´s still useful).
So Grace is something you choose depending on your raid setup, how many 25man raids do not have a resto druid or prot pala these days? Not alot I'd say, both classes are quite popular on my server atleast.
Yeah we do, Pain Suppression is a sweet tool in these cases!
No, it is not. Pain Suppression basically is a very nice tool if you know beforehand that a spike will occur. If you cast it on your tank that is at 40 % hitpoints you still have to cover a huge hole in the tank´s hp and you mostly need to do this as fast as possible since leaving tanks at low hp is risky.
Concerning Grace: I was not aware that the enhanced healing does not stack with a Druid´s Aura, also, I highly doubt it from my own experience. I´d like to see some proof on this (I´ll grab a Druid as soon as I can). Don´t forget that these buffs are not completely alike since the one from grace does not benefit the whole raid as the Tree Aura does.
No, it is not. Pain Suppression basically is a very nice tool if you know beforehand that a spike will occur. If you cast it on your tank that is at 40 % hitpoints you still have to cover a huge hole in the tank´s hp and you mostly need to do this as fast as possible since leaving tanks at low hp is risky.
I like it for that matter and haven't had any issues. Still if, the tank is that low on HP, I wouldn't start a GH heal at all, I'd cast a FH and a PS or something like that, not a big heal, which seems more risky I think.
If Grace does not stack with a resto druid's Tree of Life then that's a bug. Grace was never put into the healing increased buff/debuff category as can be seen here:
Pain Suppression has 2 HUGE flaws. It is on Global Cooldown, and if target is on LOW hp, its already too late to use it.
The 3 situations I normally use Pain Suppression on is the usual "OH SHIT ADDS" so I can fade/PW: S and wait a bit before I start healing (This is also valid in Heroic Raids). The second use is in situations where you know the boss is gonna hurt. Enraged Maexxna wrap, Malygos getting Spark, Add tank getting Ice Blocked on Kel'Thuzad. Final use is when I feel I need some time to use Hymn of Hope, PS on tank, PW: Shield, and Hope.
The 6% added healing DOES stack with Imp. Devo Aura and Treeform Aura. I also believe someone posted somewhere they tested in a duel, to put up a DoT effect on a Prot Paladin with Sanctuary and 3 stacks of grace, start duel, and they would see DoT effect tick for 3% less while Grace was still up. Maybe someone can repeat this test.
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If Grace does not stack with a resto druid's Tree of Life then that's a bug. Grace was never put into the healing increased buff/debuff category as can be seen here:
The 3 situations I normally use Pain Suppression on is the usual "OH SHIT ADDS" so I can fade/PW: S and wait a bit before I start healing (This is also valid in Heroic Raids). The second use is in situations where you know the boss is gonna hurt. Enraged Maexxna wrap, Malygos getting Spark, Add tank getting Ice Blocked on Kel'Thuzad. Final use is when I feel I need some time to use Hymn of Hope, PS on tank, PW: Shield, and Hope.
This is exactly the situations where I use PS too. 40 % is very nice, however, it´s not a real Shieldwall, it´s more a spell to take a break for a short time to be able to do other things or control your aggro on add spawns.
@lassenc: I can understand your using FH to some extent. I also do this in case my CD on Penance or PW:S/Weakened Soul has just a second or so until it expires, I´d not use GH in that case since FH + Shield is more healing and quicker than GH. However, in case my cooldowns are not that low I´d rather use GH to heal up (not to up!) a tank since I normally will need the added throughput in that case.
If Grace does not stack with a resto druid's Tree of Life then that's a bug. Grace was never put into the healing increased buff/debuff category as can be seen here:
ToL only competes with a Paladin's Improved Devotion Aura effect.
Not necessarily. That list was not kept updated during beta. For example, you can see focus magic under Increased Spell Power Buff, but focus magic doesn't even affect spell power anymore. Also, you can see that the rogue's 2% physical damage debuff talent isn't listed.
Hand of Salvation is a much better threat-down, if your pallies can manage it. Having said that, however, I still have used it as a threat-down for some folks.
Pain Suppression: Malygos getting Spark tends to own the rest of the raid than the tank; but again, I've used it then also. Sartharion Flame Breaths is probably another use for PS. Or a time when there's a ton of stuff going on and your tank or you have to move because of Lava or something.
A lot of people understimate pain suppression, just like they understimate guardian spirit.
A few things that people need to keep in mind
PS multiplies directly the value of shields. A tank taking 40% less damage means that the damage needed to take out a shield needs to be
This means that with pain suppression on the hit needs to be 67% larger to take the shield out.
You dont need to know that the tank is going to take a lot of damage to use PS effectively.
You can use PS at low health and chain PWS-PoM on top of it to take you to the next penance CD.
You can use PS on the tank at high health, if you need to do something else for a few seconds.
Plenty of uses for a spell. No point at all saving the cooldown. I use it as much as I can to make my life easier.
===============
Renew is a very very bad spell for discipline, since it does not proc aegis, rapture or grace, so for a disc priest renew is not worth casting. Its even debatable whether there is any point using it on the tank. Even improved and glyphed, renew for disc is nearly always a waste of time and mana. Even if a situation seems ideal for renew a disc priest should actively try to replace it.
Renew for holy in 5 mans is awesome. Aside from that I cannot directly comment what its like on raid encounters, but a glyphed and talented renew for holy is certainly more effective than flash heal if it does not overheal massively and its scaling with spell power is 2.3 compared to 1.0 from flash heal.
Even this extremely optimistic view of flash heal, does not make up for the difference in healing.
Especially at high spellpower, I dont see how its a good idea to not have a renew that ticks for roughly 6-8% of the MT's HP every 2 seconds is ever a bad idea.
Of course renew is a hot and they have intrinsically high overheal, but there are some situations which just call for renew. Small scale repeatable damage calls for renew, Tanks call for renew. If you are holy specd, renew is a great tool. Unfortunately without at least 2 points in IR and the glyph, renew is not very good at all.
=================================
Flash heal versus greater heal
The answer to this question is serendipity.
Gheal at 40% overheal and 2000 spell power is equal HPM to flash heal at 0% overheal.
Basically if the target is 1k or more over flash heal gheal is the better option.
Ye, agree with what you're saying. The encounter is slightly different with two healer as you avoid tons of damage (I've done both setups), but it's still obviously a lot more demanding in a two healer setup - I even had Innervate running three healers which was a luxury, not that it was really needed. The fight is also textbook material for when a holypaladin will shine.
What I was trying to say is that rolling Renews - which I think a holypriest is forced to on that encounter with two healers - is something that only works in smaller enviorments or when you have really strict assignement. I remember when we first approached KJ, we ended up having druids healing Fire Bloom-damage on the raid and me yelling at people if they "overhealed lifeblooms". A priest could certainly throw a FH on someone with a 3k deficit and two stacks of LB and win the meter, but making sure that PoH hit right after that Fire volley is far more important. To make hots viable as a raidhealing tool you can't really have healers competing to get most healing done, but let the hots do their work and know when someone is in danger or not.
This is the main issue with healing so far in the expansion, content is too easy most of the time and most guilds bring far too many healers - which leads to instantheals like CoH snaping everything. While on more challenging content, Wild Growth and Chain Heal (and Renew to a certain extent) will win because of efficency (Renew because of healing / GCD). But unless you have assignements to allow it and the content is pushing your limits, I don't see much reason for using Renew a lot as a priest these days, I normally would bounce a fresh PoM instead of a Renew.
after solo healing almost all of naxxramas and looking at my wws for the night, yeah we are using alot less renews and alot more the PoM. Im getting addictive to prayer of mending, specially with the first setbonus of tier7.
Thaddius is a perfect example how insane the PoM when solo healing the encounter. 3 sec before tank switch, cast 1 PoM on the tank and the opposite side has been healed up. Same for sapphiron, PoM, PoH, a few renews on the tank and there you go. I remember the good old days in aq40, renew was insane back then.. would be nice to see blizzard change the renew, maybe decrease the healing pr tick and make it tick faster. Just make it reliable again
after solo healing almost all of naxxramas and looking at my wws for the night, yeah we are using alot less renews and alot more the PoM. Im getting addictive to prayer of mending, specially with the first setbonus of tier7.
Thaddius is a perfect example how insane the PoM when solo healing the encounter. 3 sec before tank switch, cast 1 PoM on the tank and the opposite side has been healed up. Same for sapphiron, PoM, PoH, a few renews on the tank and there you go. I remember the good old days in aq40, renew was insane back then.. would be nice to see blizzard change the renew, maybe decrease the healing pr tick and make it tick faster. Just make it reliable again
I was around in those AQ40 days, but can you please refresh my memory as to what was so different about the renew back then? Was it the faster tick you are talking about? Right now we have a 3sec tick
1. When you know large damage is incoming and imminent
Pain Suppression is interesting when compared to Guardian Spirit. In my personal opinion, it's just another example of how healing as discipline spec is more of a proactive role than healing as holy spec, although GS and PS can be used in similar situations. However, GS won't be useful until the target actually receives healing, unless the target "dies" (and gets returned to 50% health).
I was around in those AQ40 days, but can you please refresh my memory as to what was so different about the renew back then? Was it the faster tick you are talking about? Right now we have a 3sec tick
Not faster, just efficiency. Renew used to be our most efficient spell by huge orders of magnitude. If you could get 3 ticks, it beat GHeal. Now, you need all 5 ticks just to beat Flash Heal. Blizzard has really dropped the ball on the scaling of the spell. :-(
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
Not faster, just efficiency. Renew used to be our most efficient spell by huge orders of magnitude. If you could get 3 ticks, it beat GHeal. Now, you need all 5 ticks just to beat Flash Heal. Blizzard has really dropped the ball on the scaling of the spell. :-(
If I recall correctly, that was also back when there was a limit of one heal over time spell on the target.
Well, not exactly limited to one heal over time, but to one Renew no matter how many priests you brought. You could still stack Renew with Rejuv and Regrowth for Maexxna's Web Spray, for example. As has been stated many times in this thread, I simply cannot justify the GCD which Renew requires. Flash Heal gets returns from Serendipity, an efficiency boost from the glyph, and incredible scaling with +crit and points in Surge of Light/IHC. The only time I seem to use Renew is like on Patchwerk if the tank is healed to full, gets a dodge or two, Shield/PoM are on cooldown, and yet I want some buffer on incoming damage. That's maybe twice per encounter.
I think it's time for Blizzard to consider giving Renew some passive buff, like increases healing received by X%, or increases rage/energy regeneration while applied, or something to put it back in my rotation.
Partially the issue is lack of improvement for Renew compared with a plethora of improvements for Flash Heal (and Greater Heal) in both trees.
I would wager the biggest change is probably Empowered Healing. Ironically, while our Renew continues to become weaker and weaker as time progresses, Blizzard has flirted with giving the other healing classes more HoTs.
Personally, I think Renew deserves to be buffed solely on the grounds of Priests being jack-of-all trades. It should at least be competitive with Rejuvenate with perhaps a hint of supremacy (since Druids also have 2-3 other HoTs).
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Concering the use of renew, I fail to see why people choose different options over a steady amount of guaranteed damage healed regardless of the situation, in conjunction with other mitigating factors such as PoM, PS: S, to name a few.
Why more priests arent using renew escapes me.
Due to <insert reason here> Ive been unable to get WWS to cooperate with my system, I was left with screenshotting recount as my only method for providing an example.
This is taken from a run of regular HoS. Surprisingly, this is only 15-20% more damage healed with renew than I'd normally expect to see on average from healing a BC Heroic. The numbers arent as important as the percentages, since the healing strats are the same regardless.
Im looking forward to seeing how these numbers change when I get to 80 Heroics and 10-mans, since they've been statistically the same throughout all of BC Heroics and Raids.
Concering the use of renew, I fail to see why people choose different options over a steady amount of guaranteed damage healed regardless of the situation, in conjunction with other mitigating factors such as PoM, PS: S, to name a few.
Why more priests arent using renew escapes me.
Due to <insert reason here> Ive been unable to get WWS to cooperate with my system, I was left with screenshotting recount as my only method for providing an example.
This is taken from a run of regular HoS. Surprisingly, this is only 15-20% more damage healed with renew than I'd normally expect to see on average from healing a BC Heroic. The numbers arent as important as the percentages, since the healing strats are the same regardless.
Im looking forward to seeing how these numbers change when I get to 80 Heroics and 10-mans, since they've been statistically the same throughout all of BC Heroics and Raids.
Your screenshot proves nothing beyond the fact that you don't properly use your abilities. If all you do is spam Renew in your raid then of course it is going to be your highest effective heal. I shouldn't even have to mention how trivial regular instances are to heal. Most of them can simply be healed by keeping Prayer of Mending on cooldown. Due to that fact you're offering a skewed image showing one of the few things in this game that can be healed by Renew / Holy Nova (....) facerolling. If you had used Renew less perhaps you wouldn't have died and used Spirit of Redemption. Food for thought.
Please stop posting until you have actual experience and can use valid evidence to support your claims.
Please stop posting until you have actual experience and can use valid evidence to support your claims.
Perhaps you missed my point.
This is how I have healed in ALL my healing experience, pre-LK; Heroic, 10-man, 25-Man, etc.
Ive already stated that I heal primarily as a raid healer using Discipline/Holy.
The numbers and percentages havent changed, I dont go Out of mana, and people usually (95% of the time) dont die.
This perspective isnt "skewed", it is simply different.
I fail to see why people are shooting down the information I am offerring here, unless of course they simply cannot accept the concept that there are alternative methods to heal which may not specifically require the use of a spreadsheet.
If you like, I'll be happy to offer my results in Heroics, 10-mans, and 25-mans when that is available.
Perhaps I dont play like others do, or think as they do.
To me, healing is the most challenging aspect of the game due to its dynamic nature and everchanging variables.
Why is it then, that I can heal using different strategies without any issues, yet so many others here contend that I am a "noob"?
I can only conclude that those shooting me down cannot themselves accomplish what I have, and/or under the same circumstances, for <insert reason here> and are adopting the "Whack-a-mole" Hive-mentality as opposed to creative abstraction.
If screenshots of overeall healing and effective healing are not adequate "Evidence", what then would you reccomend as an acceptable alternative?
Apparently, semantic logic only incites arguments instead of productive discussion, and Raw numbers dont appeal to you either Nurru.
What would you suggest?
You're posting a screenshot of a non-heroic Hall of Stones run as evidence that your claims are correct and the rest of us actually participating in raid content don't know what we're talking about. I literally have no idea what I can say to you at this point if you don't see the problem with that.
Concering the use of renew, I fail to see why people choose different options over a steady amount of guaranteed damage healed regardless of the situation, in conjunction with other mitigating factors such as PoM, PS: S, to name a few.
Why more priests arent using renew escapes me.
Due to <insert reason here> Ive been unable to get WWS to cooperate with my system, I was left with screenshotting recount as my only method for providing an example.
This is taken from a run of regular HoS. Surprisingly, this is only 15-20% more damage healed with renew than I'd normally expect to see on average from healing a BC Heroic. The numbers arent as important as the percentages, since the healing strats are the same regardless.
Im looking forward to seeing how these numbers change when I get to 80 Heroics and 10-mans, since they've been statistically the same throughout all of BC Heroics and Raids.
The content changes. In normal five mans with a geared/specced tank, Renew + PoM is about all you need, with a Flash Heal to fill in if the trash is particularly rough. Around Heroics, it goes up to Renew + PoM + Greater Heal for tank healing, PoM/Flash Heal/AoE heals for DPS. Flash Heal is just better for spot healing a DPS, or to spam in an emergency where a plate DPS pulls aggro and a shield or GH isn't going to cut it. I can't think of a situation where casting Renew is actually useful on DPS outside of a few situations. Even for steady damage, I prefer PoM's better healing and the pong noise.
I healed three wings of Naxx 10 last night, and I only used Renew on such occasions as a Horseman tank switch to help out the OT's healer, or on Maxxena, where I wanted as much healing stacked as possible in the event of a bad web wrap + enrage scenario. Keeping it up on the tank at all times ended up being close to a waste of mana. I stopped using it as much, and watched my mana efficiency go up while the tank's survivability did not go down, even though it was just me and a holy pally (not that two healing Naxx is particularly difficult). Renew was just too weak for DPS healing because of the long time between ticks and the fact that there was a good chance the pally would heal the same target, making the Renew ticks worthless.
I don't mind seeing math from you if you choose to give it, but your WotLK healing experience just isn't diverse enough to "make a case" for Renew as the majority of a priest's healing.
12/17/08, 6:37 AM
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