You're posting a screenshot of a non-heroic Hall of Stones run as evidence that your claims are correct and the rest of us actually participating in raid content don't know what we're talking about. I literally have no idea what I can say to you at this point if you don't see the problem with that.
Well then let me apologize for derailing this thread with what is an obvious misinterpretaion.
I never once claimed that everyone elses ideas here are incorrect. I am simply curious and a bit confused as to the "Hive-Mentality" that is being displayed here on the "Must never take <x> talent or never use <y> skill", when in fact, some of those talents and skills are equally viable.
Perhaps it is merely individual ego's that are trespassing on a productive discussion.
I simply wanted to know why so many priests are speccing <x> and using <y> when I spec <a> and use <b> just as effectively.
Call it a curiousity and leave it at that.
Again, my apologies for posting what is as you state an obvious: "Improper use of my abilities."
I simply wanted to know why so many priests are speccing <x> and using <y> when I spec <a> and use <b> just as effectively.
You don't. We're healing Naxx, Obsidian Sanctum, etc., and you're healing regular Halls of Stone. That's like comparing apples and oranges. Additionally, just because you healed Heroics in TBC, Kara, BT, etc. a certain way does not mean that method will succeed in Lich King raids.
Just as Lhyssa pointed out, I also healed all regular dungeons mostly by keeping renew on the tank, using ProM roughly on cooldown and tossing out a flash heal occasionally on DPS. For heroics I had to toss in greater heal on the tank and some CoHs when the DPS decided to stand in the fire. But in Lich King raids Renew just doesn't seem to be nearly as effective. I still keep it up on the tank some of the time but that's about it. As has been mentioned numerous times a ProM or Flash Heal seem to be much better for topping off a DPS than tossing them a renew. It's about the same if not more efficient for me and it's much more efficient for the raid because another healer is not going to waste mana topping them off while my renew ticks are all overheal.
OmniDo:
If you went into Naxx25 right now and thought, well heck renew makes my juice flowing and expecting to get a lot healed, you well be sorely disappointed.
The reason why renew is only situational used is because there is a ***loads of aoe going on. Your renew tick wouldnt get a leg to the ground before all the aoe is healed up by shamans, druids, priests and paladins.
And ontop of that, ask yourself why you even wanna use renew.. Absolutely non of your talents disc as holy benefits from renew ticks. The scale as Constantius said is horrible. You need 5 ticks of the renew just to make up for a flash heal. You would NEVER get 5 ticks on a person in 25 instance.
You might think well still I get healing done and people dont die. Well that then isnt because of you. I suggest you try out Naxx25. Get someone to parse a WWS then come back and we can discuss it further.
E Pluribus Unmn!
You can cut my wings away, but i will never forget how it was to fly!
Well then let me apologize for derailing this thread with what is an obvious misinterpretaion.
I never once claimed that everyone elses ideas here are incorrect. I am simply curious and a bit confused as to the "Hive-Mentality" that is being displayed here on the "Must never take <x> talent or never use <y> skill", when in fact, some of those talents and skills are equally viable.
Perhaps it is merely individual ego's that are trespassing on a productive discussion.
I simply wanted to know why so many priests are speccing <x> and using <y> when I spec <a> and use <b> just as effectively.
Call it a curiousity and leave it at that.
Again, my apologies for posting what is as you state an obvious: "Improper use of my abilities."
The "Hive-Mentality" is also here because this thread is about maximizing a holy priest as much as possible. As such, yes, <a> may be just as viable as <b> in practice, but <b> is just better in terms of HPM, HPS, pure efficiency, or fight dynamics. As has been pointed out, in a raid setting Renew is likely to end up overhealing because of healer overlap or maybe just not giving healing that is needed NOW not in fifteen seconds, it doesn't scale as well as other heals, and has no talent synergies like PoM or FH.
So, yeah, your raid will likely survive the encounter if you use Renew. It is still healing, after all. But, there are tools that are just flat better in the same situation, and there may come a progression night that calls for that sort of maximization. Sure, Renew is still something to consider, but it is to the point of being ridiculously situational.
I'd have to say Renew is more of a preference. On 5 mans, it's the main thing I use to heal everyone besides flash heals/poms off main tank, and a flash heal occasionally on a DPS that dipped low, other than that, renew basically is all I need for trash with a few flash heals. Of course, that would come with gear on 5 mans. As for 25 mans, I still find Renew useful, might just be me, who knows. Malygos, dropping a renew/PoM on the tank as you're coming out of the vortex and going south can help out with the tank healers. In Naxx, I keep Renew up on the tanks in basically every fight unless they aren't near me. Don't really have any mana issues, so it just makes things easier. The only thing we haven't done yet is Sarth with 3 drakes, we've done it with 1 and 2 already. We just add one each week to make the transition smoother. On the Sarth + 2, I raid healed, but didn't go in the portal, we had some of our other healers go in there. I basically stayed outside on the tanks and kept renew up on the adds tank and the drake tank. Kept PoM on the adds tank so it bounced off him and healers, and flash heals when needed. And then went back to raid healing when they came out. It wasn't exactly up there with CoH/Flash heal/PoM, but it did heal for ~100k with 16% overheal, so it wasn't "useless" imo.
It wasn't exactly up there with CoH/Flash heal/PoM, but it did heal for ~100k with 16% overheal, so it wasn't "useless" imo.
I don't mean to attack your post specifically, but this is a terrible way of measuring how "useful" a particular healing spell is. You can cast as many Renews as you like and drum up some big and impressive numbers, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't have been better off just using FH instead.
Renew certainly isn't useless. If you have plenty of mana, no immediate healing needs and you expect someone to be taking damage during the next 15 seconds, then Renew is obviously a much better use of the GCD than sitting around waiting for someone to take damage. Most of the time though, you're better off just casting another FH or PWS or PoM or whatever.
I don't mean to attack your post specifically, but this is a terrible way of measuring how "useful" a particular healing spell is. You can cast as many Renews as you like and drum up some big and impressive numbers, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't have been better off just using FH instead.
Renew certainly isn't useless. If you have plenty of mana, no immediate healing needs and you expect someone to be taking damage during the next 15 seconds, then Renew is obviously a much better use of the GCD than sitting around waiting for someone to take damage. Most of the time though, you're better off just casting another FH or PWS or PoM or whatever.
No offense taken at all, I've only been playing for maybe 5 months now, not as experienced as all of you . But, the OT tanks in Sarth +2 are ALWAYS taken damage, the adds tank is getting hit repetitively nonstop so the renew will basically always hit each tick. I found it more "useful" because you're constantly avoiding void zones / fire walls, that I found a ticking HoT on the OTs was effective. Of course flash heal is better HPS and higher burst, but imo doesn't change the fact that it's useful on there. And I didn't keep renew up all that much, as I said, I was mainly a raid healer until portals when I would just help keep up the OTs. Nonetheless, with avoid everything, sometimes you can't stand still and get off a flash heal, and I've always felt that keeping a Renew up will help smooth it out when you have to move between the fire walls etc.
I don't mean to attack your post specifically, but this is a terrible way of measuring how "useful" a particular healing spell is. You can cast as many Renews as you like and drum up some big and impressive numbers, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't have been better off just using FH instead.
Overheal numbers on Renew are especially useless because if your target is at 100%, Renew just doesn't tick (same with every other HoT in the game). If you repeatedly cast Renew on yourself while standing in Dalaran, you'd have 0% overheal.
Besides, overheal isn't really a good measure of... anything, really, unless you're running out of mana and the tank is dying late in a fight. Overhealing is a tradeoff between safety and mana efficiency: unless you need the mana, you should actually overheal MORE to avoid wiping to the RNG aligning in specific ways. I always wonder about people who brag about having 20% overheal on [insert raid boss here].
Renew certainly isn't useless. If you have plenty of mana, no immediate healing needs and you expect someone to be taking damage during the next 15 seconds, then Renew is obviously a much better use of the GCD than sitting around waiting for someone to take damage. Most of the time though, you're better off just casting another FH or PWS or PoM or whatever.
Well, that's not quite true: sometimes you'd rather just stand there for 5 seconds and drop out of FSR.
It should be noted (although it has been earlier in this thread) Renew is decently effective with Guardian Spirit to conserve/regen mana.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
- Renew scaling is basically shitty....it heals a little more than a Fheal
- It IS efficient in terms of zero overhealing
- renew is just not effective at group healing due to speed of ticks and sniping
- where renew IS useful: tank healing as an added buffer, on self during medium predictable damage, topping off warlock after tapping their hp. Yes there are more apps, but you get the idea.
Bottom line:
Yet another spell that has limited application for holy priests.
It should be noted (although it has been earlier in this thread) Renew is decently effective with Guardian Spirit to conserve/regen mana.
Very much so. (cast renew first though!)
I am currently spec'd shadow so I can't test this. But if anyone else could please do, cast GS on yourself then Shield and see if the absorb gains the bonus. I don't think it will, but who knows. Also, is it just rumor or can GS's heal crit? I've yet to see that.
Originally Posted by Lytewish
Ok, so from all the discussions on Renew:
- Renew scaling is basically shitty....it heals a little more than a Fheal
- It IS efficient in terms of zero overhealing
- renew is just not effective at group healing due to speed of ticks and sniping
- where renew IS useful: tank healing as an added buffer, on self during medium predictable damage, topping off warlock after tapping their hp. Yes there are more apps, but you get the idea.
Bottom line:
Yet another spell that has limited application for holy priests.
The bottom line is that it is a great 5-man spell as you know where your renew is and no one will heal over it (hopefully). It is ok in 10-mans if you are running with 2 healers especially, again less chance of it being healed over. It is very poor, and situational at best in 25-man content (Maexnna web wrap for example).
Ok, so from all the discussions on Renew:
- It IS efficient in terms of zero overhealing
Your other points look fine, but this is very wrong. It may appear to have excellent overhealing on WWS or Recount, but in fact it's often terrible. If your target is at full health it simply won't tick, but unfortunately it also doesn't refund your mana. That means it's effectively "invisible" overhealing which doesn't show up on any healing metres.
For Drewskie's figures above, for example, his 16% overhealing on Renew looks great. However, if even 20% of your Renew ticks lands on a full health character, that 16% overhealing might actually be closer to 36%. It's quite difficult to calculate; you could probably do it by using WWS to look at the number of times the Renew buff was applied, multiply by 5 for the expected number of ticks, and compare it to the actual number of ticks recorded.
Agree on the "zero overhealing" thing. It's lack of overhealing does NOT translate to efficiency. You could throw a renew on someone at 100% hp - that's not efficient at all.
Renew is also an instant cast - your other instants being PoM, PW:S, and possibly CoH.
Overall, though, it's not the spell it once was. It doesn't REALLY help smooth out incoming damage. It used to be where you would help keep the tank's hp smooth with hots and the direct heals would fill it up. The damage and other healing is just too great now.
Your other points look fine, but this is very wrong. It may appear to have excellent overhealing on WWS or Recount, but in fact it's often terrible. If your target is at full health it simply won't tick, but unfortunately it also doesn't refund your mana. That means it's effectively "invisible" overhealing which doesn't show up on any healing metres.
For Drewskie's figures above, for example, his 16% overhealing on Renew looks great. However, if even 20% of your Renew ticks lands on a full health character, that 16% overhealing might actually be closer to 36%. It's quite difficult to calculate; you could probably do it by using WWS to look at the number of times the Renew buff was applied, multiply by 5 for the expected number of ticks, and compare it to the actual number of ticks recorded.
I think you misunderstood him. He means Renew is efficient assuming all 5 ticks healed for their full amount. Which is true: theorethical hpm for my renew assuming 0 overheal on a target not topped off would be 10.3, my glyphed flash heal is only 7.8 hpm.
Also, as far as I can tell, Guardian Spirit does affect the Power Word: Shield glyph. 1288 with GS up, 880 without GS.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Well, if anyone wants to see the parse: Wow Web Stats
I'm not sure how to tell if it was horribly overhealed or not. Just seemed to help imo, but I've never tried it WITHOUT it, so I can't be sure. And yes, I know I abused CoH in there, no need to point anything out to me on that :P, I'll be fine with the CD.
I think you misunderstood him. He means Renew is efficient assuming all 5 ticks healed for their full amount. Which is true: theorethical hpm for my renew assuming 0 overheal on a target not topped off would be 10.3, my glyphed flash heal is only 7.8 hpm.
Also, as far as I can tell, Guardian Spirit does affect the Power Word: Shield glyph. 1288 with GS up, 880 without GS.
Exactly what I meant; however, I should have elaborated on the point to eliminate any misinterpretation
Well, if anyone wants to see the parse: Wow Web Stats
I'm not sure how to tell if it was horribly overhealed or not. Just seemed to help imo, but I've never tried it WITHOUT it, so I can't be sure. And yes, I know I abused CoH in there, no need to point anything out to me on that :P, I'll be fine with the CD.
Looking at the kill of Sarth in that WWS, Renew was cast 29 times, so there should have been (29 * 5) 145 ticks total. 71 ticks showed up as healing, meaning 74 were complete overheal. Your listed Renew OH% was 16, and the other priest's was 23. However, even an appoximation, including the missing ticks comes out at over 50% overheal, which lowers the HPM of Renew to sub Flash levels.
Disc stuff:
A lot of people understimate pain suppression, just like they understimate guardian spirit.
You can use PS at low health and chain PWS-PoM on top of it to take you to the next penance CD.
I don't agree on this, specially during "hard" fights like sarthiron with 3 drakes. I have tried yesterday to respec disc to see if there was a real difference from my previous holy spec.
Both the times I was on MT healing and then dealing with the gay burst dmg combo (breath, shadow etc).
Casted few times a PS after a big spikes (aka 100% -> 1% in 0,7 sec) but ofc PS here cant save the night.. and tank was dead anyway... while Guardian Spirit can really help alot.
Yep the real difference is that PS cant be a real emergency ability, while GS is.
Another comment on my DISC test is that I was missing alot my Imp Holy Conc... stop a precasting because you know that you can recast it in a more correct timing it's really nice and to me also fun.
Here's the primary issue with your statement: you used Pain Suppression *after* the breath. Of course it's not going to do anything in that situation. That's not what it's designed for.
Flame Breath is a 2 second cast. If you can't react to the breath coming (with acolyte/disciples up) and use PS before the Breath lands, that's your problem, not the spell itself. If you're healing drake tanks, and you can't predict roughly when the next Shadow Breath will come, that again, is a PBKAC, not a problem with the spell.
Pain Suppression is fine. In fact, in some ways (aside from the live-saving effect of GS), it's arguably better than GS. Reducing an incoming damage spike by 40% can help tremendously, although obviously if you just 'let the tank die', GS does an even better job. It's just so ... weird ... to know the tank is going to die, and GS 'saves' him.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
GS and PS work exactly the same way dealing with the gigabreaths on Sartharion, you remove one possible tankdeath from the fight. As long as your tank knows that it's perfectly OK to drop to 1-2k HP with GS up (if he survives the breath by that margin and GS doesn't consume a killing blow) and he doesn't waste any CDs, that is.
Why anyone would be disc for that specific encounter is a mystery though.
Also, is it just rumor or can GS's heal crit? I've yet to see that.
I don't know if it can crit or not, but there's definitely something wonky with the mechanic of it. I've had it heal my tank up to 100% from (obviously) 0%. And it's not a matter of other healers sniping in a quick heal, because it's happened in 5 mans as well.
I figured it was just lag, and the tank getting 2 hits in rapid succession and GS affecting both hits as killing blows, thus applying the effect twice.
Oh, and on an entirely different note, I tried searching the thread but couldn't find any mention of it; Borrowed time is bugged with penance. The haste effect gets applied to penance, but penance doesn't consume the effect. PW:S->Penance->Greater Heal for some sweet hps.
Allesin, Drewskie might have a glyphed Renew. Still, wasted ticks are significant. Helim, one thing I love about Guardian Spirit is that it doesn't matter how hard the "killing blow" is. If the tank as 2k hp and eats a 10k breath, and Guardian Spirit heals him to 18k hp, that's effectively 26k. Too bad there are few boss mechanics where it can really shine, and where it does it's typically a bridge spell, like on the tank during Maexxna's enraged web spray. The first few times you do the encounter, she might actually live long enough to web spray while enraged. Most of the time I use it it doesn't get consumed, but it gives me peace of mind and helps the tank get healed up fast.
The stopcasting line will cancel whatever cast I'm in, so if I just started a Greater Heal, the tank takes a big spike, and I don't think he'll live through the remaining casting time of Greater Heal I can hit this macro and have it instantly apply GS. The mouseover stuff is just how I heal. I have all of my heals setup with similar macros and just mouseover a frame in Grid to heal that way I don't have to constantly click to target and then heal.
The raid warning is only really useful in 5-mans. Typically I communicate GS over vent. If I'm applying GS I'd rather not have the tank blow all his cooldowns trying to give me time to heal him when I'd prefer he take a killing blow and get the 50% heal from GS.
12/17/08, 7:03 PM
. But, the OT tanks in Sarth +2 are ALWAYS taken damage, the adds tank is getting hit repetitively nonstop so the renew will basically always hit each tick. I found it more "useful" because you're constantly avoiding void zones / fire walls, that I found a ticking HoT on the OTs was effective. Of course flash heal is better HPS and higher burst, but imo doesn't change the fact that it's useful on there. And I didn't keep renew up all that much, as I said, I was mainly a raid healer until portals when I would just help keep up the OTs. Nonetheless, with avoid everything, sometimes you can't stand still and get off a flash heal, and I've always felt that keeping a Renew up will help smooth it out when you have to move between the fire walls etc.
Similar Threads
