As i disc i'd value spirit over mp5 simply because it scales better at higher int levels - which you do want to achieve.
Regeneration through meditation:
0.3* 5 * 0.005575 * Spirit * Square_root ( Int ) = Mp5

1 Spirit @ Int with enlightenment and bok
1000 = 0.304
1100 = 0.319
1200 = 0.334
1300 = 0.347
1400 = 0.360
1500 = 0.373
1600 = 0.385
1700 = 0.397

1520 being the int value were a 16 spi gem beats the 6 mp5 while casting. Asuming you can make use of the 5sr the value of mp5 diminishes even further.

I ran naxx 25 as disc and i found myself not wanting to be casting all the time just to keep grace or divine äegis up.
Especially when other healers were sniping my targets mana not returned due to overheal became a serious problem. An ideal disc fight would be patchwerk since the other healers are busy themselves and there is heavy single target damage.

Bringing 7 healers to naxx this week healing as disc just wasn't efficient and became very frustrating. I quickly hit the bottom of the healing statistics - disc efficiency just wasn't needed or maybe my haste was just lacking.

Re: mp5 vs. spirit:

At 1000 intellect raid buffed, 1 point of spirit is 0.005575 * 5 * sqrt(1000) = 0.881 mp5 out of FSR. Note that 1000 intellect raid buffed is a "still gearing up in Naxx" level; I'm pretty close to 1000 intellect unbuffed right now.

For holy, it's not even a contest. You expect around 80% FSR (more if you're spamming CoH, less if you're canceling heals), so each point of spirit is 0.3879 mp5 and 0.25 spell power. Well, actually, 1 spirit is 1.155 spirit (Kings + SoR), so that's 0.448 mp5 and 0.28875 spell power. 1 point of mp5 is 2.5 times as expensive, so 1/2.5th of a mp5 is 0.4 mp5, which means the spirit is better across the board. (The FSR breakpoint is ~87% in this case.)

For discipline, mp5 is slightly better with the same gear. For a discipline priest, that's actually 1150 intellect because of MS. You expect, say, 95% FSR, and you don't get Spiritual Guidance (but you do get Kings), so assuming 5/5 Enlightenment, 1 point of spirit is 0.005575 * 5 * sqrt(1150) * ((0.3 * 0.95) + 0.05) * 1.1 * 1.05 = 0.3657 mp5, which is a few percent worse than the equivalent item points' worth of mp5. (The breakpoint is higher here due to higher intellect: around 90% FSR.) If you throw in more gear, up to something like 1450 intellect after raid buffs and talents, then spirit passes mp5 even at 95% FSR.

But like Lambi says, if you have mana problems you should actually look for intellect first.

edit: sort of beaten, although the numbers above me assume 100% FSR and are in terms of the gems (and 6 mp5 is actually slightly underbudget compared to 16 spirit)

edit2: In case you're curious: the intellect breakpoint at which spirit is better than mp5 regardless of FSR is 1716 (assuming Kings, and assuming SoR for holy or 5/5 Enlightenment for Discipline).

No, even as disc you would not want to stack MP5 on your gear. Spirit regen is affected by talents (mental strength & elightenment) and is also affected by buffs such as kings. As stated earlier, MP5 is a waste of item stat points for priests regardless of spec (unless you don't spec meditation lawl).

Comparing crit vs haste:
Keep in mind that haste increases the likelihood that DAs get overwritten by one another. As your FH gets faster, to say, 1.0, that makes it harder for a boss attack to hit that window before you proc another DA.

Both are throughput measures, although there is a decided trade-off. Crit can proc DA which increases effective health as well as Rapture returns. Haste is just plain pure throughput. In fact, you are more likely to go oom stacking haste than crit.

Additionally, it is even difficult to say which is more "reactive". Sure, haste allows you to get off faster Penance ticks or FH. However, if DA is already on the target, that will provide some "reaction time" as well.

It is somewhat difficult to model - one would have to take into account boss swing timers as well as other effects to see whether or not DA's are being "wasted". My gut tells me right now that as long as you're not being ridiculous about it, you can probably "stack" crit (go for it in itemization, gems, etc.) and not really hit a cap.

At 100% crit, and 1.5 sec FH cast time (it'll be 5% less anyway, I assume but whatever): let's say your FH hits (crits) for 7k and DA would then be 2k. Incoming damage should be 9k every 1.5 seconds and you're golden.

If your interested in how much your loosing from Aegis overwriting itself here is a simplified case I had worked out back before the patch. For disc using the new grace and flash heal the numbers will be even worse.

There are problems with the quoted scenario, of which I'm sure you're already aware. Specifically, 1) would you let another Gheal land if the tank has taken no hits since your last Gheal hit and 2) even if you did, your Aegis would only be overwritten by another Aegis that is just as strong, since your Gheal will crit approx. the same amount.

Obviously, in this second scenario, letting both stack would create a mega-Aegis that would be overpowered and not what the developers intended. The same goes for Fheal spam, where letting the two stack is not what would be considered "balanced" behavior so the alternative to the overwrite is not warranted.

The real "nightmare scenario" is a situation in which you crit a BT-hasted Gheal (which, as a holy priest, I understand is the only time a Disc priest would cast one), then follow up with a Fheal to top off the tank that crits and overwrites the original Aegis with a far weaker one.

Overwriting DA is not such a big issue as it seems. Due to the nature of Disc healing (More reactive), you can afford more often to lax a bit on healing. Also, my role in raids is not solely tank healing. I heal everything. I got really fast heals, I have great absorbs that dont force other healers to overheal. On Malygos I am normally on the tank, but only after a breath. I keep Penance for the breath, and follow up with a shield, and then I top off raid. DA overwriting is only bad if you are healing 1 single target.

Also, BOTH more Haste and more Crit result in the same situation. You will crit more often over a given period of time. Haste has a few soft caps. 1s GCD with Power Infusion and BT up, 1s GCD with BT up, and finally another cap at 1s GCD. Crit on the other hand, doesn't really have any caps except the 100% hard cap. However, if you gem and gear for Crit, you risk up having a more volatile situation. You may have crit streaks, or a long period of time without any criticals. Haste is constant.

It really comes down to taste. I rate Crit & Haste equal, although I am trying to stay around the 1s gcd softcap with BT up.

I may have missed this earlier in the post, or maybe it isn't in here. My question is does using an instant cast spell still put you into the 5 second rule since it costs mana? I would assume so but i'm not entirely sure.

Sorry if this has already been posted -- a quick note from the undocumented 3.0.8 patch notes from MMO:

"Je'Tze's Bell is now Bind When Equipped."

An instant cast spell counts as completing a spell cast which costs mana, so yes.

I dont remember was here anything about stacking of healing recieved from Tree of Life and Grace in this thread?
I guess they do not stack, but cant proof it.

I also guess that Grace's buff +6% healing recieved do not stack with Improve Dev Aura.... so why Tree of life and Grace stack ? I mean is there any reliable post or proof.

Grace is for the priest healer who cast it only. Tree of life + imp devo aura are for any healer. It can be seen more as a personal buff.

I'd like to confirm that yes, Grace and Devo Aura stack. I don't have the numbers with me, but here was my methodology:

I tested by jumping off the ogri tower and healed with renew (consistent heal amount) to get a control heal.
Then stacked grace via penance and repeated the same (saw a 6% increase).
Then put on devo aura only (saw a 6% increase).
(saw the same 2 heal amounts in 2 tests above)
Then put on both devo aura and grace (saw a 12% increase).


Another test I ran was whether or not Blessing of Sancuary and Grace stacked. My methodology was as follows:

Dueled my test opponent and used Shadow Word: Pain (consistent damage) to get control dmg.
Then Penanced them before duel to stack grace (test unit removed shield) and recorded the dmg tick of SW:P (3% decrease in dmg taken).
Put on BoS and and recorded the dmg tick of SW:P (3% decrease in dmg taken).
(saw the same 2 dmg amounts in the 2 tests above)
Put on BoS and stacked grace before duel, and recorded dmg tick of SW:P (6% decrease in dmg taken).

So, just to confirm, the dmg reduction from Grace and Blessing of Sancuary stack.


However, what I would LIKE to test is whether or not Grace from multiple Disc Priests stacks.

1) If it doesnt, that means any additional Disc priests would be gimped by missing out on the 6% heal.
2) If it does, you could potentially have like 10 Disc priests in a raid providing a 30% dmg reduction from all the Grace.

I'm on a smallish server, so I have problems finding enough Disc priests to do proper testing. Is anyone able to provide some testing/conclusions?

You seem to be confused (or I am, reading your posting).

The priest-self only effect of grace can't stack by its very nature of being tied to the casting priest. The effect of reduced damage taken doesn't stack with any other same effect (BoSanc and Vigilance or other Graces). What you are asking is then if any target can have two or more grace buffs on himself, right ? I think I saw that once in an AV but I can't be sure, buffs and debuffs move very fast and there aren't really many Disc priests around.

So if I am not mistaken, if you have 10 disc priests who all put grace on one target, that one target has -3% damage taken and each disc priest receives +6% healing done on that target in total.

Edit: BoS and Grace should not stack (with respect to the damage reduction effect of grace). There were tests before that showed that this would be the case, and by the stated goal of the raid buff model rework by Blizzard they are absolutely not supposed to stack. If they actually do it right now, it's a bug and will certainly be fixed.

Allow me to elaborate...

Under the new buff system, buffs overwrite each other if they have the same effect (Battle Shout and Blessing of Might).

However, the reason I believe Blizz allowed Improved Devo Aura and Grace stack is because...

Improved Devo Aura- Provides +6% healing
Grace- provided +6% healing AND 3% reduction in dmg.

Same for BoS actually.
BoS- Provides 3% redction in damage
Grace- provided +6% healing AND 3% reduction in dmg.

Under technicality, Grace does not have the SAME EFFECT so it is allowed to stack with slightly similar buffs (BoS and Devo Aura).

However, if it is not allowed to stack with itself, does that not mean that any additonal priest who trys to put grace on a target will be disallowed and thus will have 6% decreased healing on that target?

Unless of course, as you noted from AV....Grace is allowed to stack up multiple times, which has 2 possibilities.

1) The target has 2 effective stacks of grace, each providing +6% healing to the respective priest and 3% reduced damage twice (for 6% reduced damage).
or
2) The target has 2 semi-effective stacks of grace, each providing +6% healing to the respective priest and 3% reduced damage overall (the additional 3% reduced damage is canceled out).

This is what I would like to test.

I'm curious about people's thoughts regarding BIS lists. Everything I have seen has been some number like 160, for example. Generally a calculated coefficient is multiplied by the stat to derive this number. The problem I have with this is that regen and throughput are treated as if they were the same thing, then added together. It seems to me that they should be kept separate because they fill totally different needs.

To extend this, crit and spellpower in a sense fill both because if there is X damage to heal, more crit or spellpower will heal that X, and potentially require less mana to do so. Haste on the otherhand does not increase your HPM, and it strictly a throughput stat.

Ideally I would like to be able to settle on X regen for a given fight, then maximize throughput past that. From what I can tell there are no publicly available spreadsheets to fill this purpose, but I would like to be told if I am wrong on that. My guild has probably wiped 60+ times on Malygos 25-man and only have a few phase 3 attempts to show for it, so I really need to make the most out of myself on every attempt.

Thanks to all.

And then you're left with something that doesn't give you an answer as to which piece of gear is better, which was the whole point of making the model. If we took your line of thinking to the logical extreme, we shouldn't use derived values at all and should instead just look at the individual stats on the gear. Not that there's anything wrong with that if you have the time, inclination and analytical ability - but a gear point system isn't really serving its purpose if it spits out more than one number.

But why would you target a particular regen threshold? Most throughput stats (but not haste) will increase your efficiency at the same time that they improve throughput, which would seem to mean that under certain circumstances you would want to choose (for example) spellpower over regeneration even if you hadn't yet reached your target regeneration value.

I totally agree on the Regen+Throughput=Value of gear issue, because the two things added together don't really mean anything. However, I will note that if you're going to argue that crit (even outside Holy Concentration) and Spell Power will fulfill the regen role, then haste must also be considered the same. Assuming your X to heal, obviously the faster you hit X the more regen time you'll have to the next time you have to heal X amount.

That technicality aside, I don't actually agree with the premise that Spell Power, crit (again, if you're going to say it's more than just HC), and haste should be considered regen. This may have been true when downranking was a possibility, as additional throughput would enable you to downrank and thus become more mana efficient, but it's not like that now. While using your model of "use less mana to fulfill X healing" might make calculations easier, it doesn't make much real-world sense. The number of situations where you'll find yourself thinking "I wish I could have just used 1 Gheal instead of 1 gheal and 1 flash heal" are few and far between.

As for the rest, my general stance at the moment is not really to compile a BiS set. Rather, I'm just collecting all the loot that I can and creating flexibility for myself. When harder raid content hits, I would like the option to say "This is a long fight, I'll need additional mana" and swap into a INT/Spirit focused set or say "This is a short fight but I'll need to be healing constantly and for a lot" and swap into a Haste/Spellpower set.

Ultimately, to directly answer your last point, the current content doesn't require you to get a significant amount of "X" for regen or throughput, so it's hard to say at what point you'd need less of one and more of the other.

(Bold is mine)

But of course there's a purpose. It's the same as tank gear where you have avoidance values and stamina values (to a lesser extent, threat values). Tanks will need enough of an HP pool to survive big hits, but also enough avoidance that they are not draining the healer's mana. However, one does not serve the same function as the other, so I don't see how combining the two stats makes much sense.

-delete-

Freethinker, BIS lists are both factual and personal preference. My BIS list is slightly different from Nidaba's, not to say mine is right or his is right but it is what each of us feel is our best item.

There will become a certain point in your gear (I have reached this already) where you don't need anymore regen. I can spend almost the entire fight chain casting and be fine on mana, that being said my haste has gone down a bit recently. There are also fights where crit is more important (ie. Patchwerk), and there are fights where I think haste is more important (Sarth-3D and Kel'Thuzad).

My BiS list is here and is a constant work in progress.

It can make sense in several ways. But generally, any time that someone chooses one piece of gear over another they've assessed the stats and decided that one piece is better than the other, which means that they have (even if only implicitly or situationally) assigned one a greater (scalar) value than the other. Gear point systems are just an attempt to explicitly model that choice.

In the case of regen and throughput, one approach that's often used is to assess how much more healing you can expect to do in some length of time (often five or six minutes). An alternate approach is to use the Blizzard itemization budget, with the idea that whatever tradeoff you are making will presumably allow you to come out ahead via suitable gemming. For example, if you have to choose between 12 mp5 and 30 spellpower, you might choose the mp5 just because you know that it would take two gems to make it up while the spellpower only takes 1.6 or so.

You won't find yourself thinking it because it's not immediately obvious when it happens, and in any case the number of individual casts saved even in a five minute fight is not going to be large. But there's not really any reason to argue about whether the effect is noticeable when we can do the math. If you have some fight where

T = number of five-second periods in the fight
C = sum of all the coefficients for the spells you expect to cast during that time
H = heals per mana

...then you expect to see more healing (at the margin) of

T*H per point of mp5
C per point of spellpower

And at some point where C*spellpower is what a single cast heals you can fairly say that you've saved yourself a cast. Of course if you're raidhealing it doesn't make sense to think in terms of saving yourself a cast, rather you've taken some pressure of the healing as a whole by doing slightly more.
The above method tends to overvalue mp5, because it doesn't account for the other benefits of throughput. But it does show that you can evaluate spellpower in terms of how much regen it saves you just by increased efficiency.