Divine Hymn is definitely situational, but I do agree that in some situations, it does a pretty decent amount of healing. The main time that I use it is on Sarth3D, Malygos after a vortex, and after about 3 ticks of the frost aura on Saph10. Besides that, unless there is trash with a hell of a lot of aoe going on, I don't ever really use it. It's godly in PvP though.
It's also worth pointing out that a number of the Naxx25 set pieces aren't as good for Disc as Holy, to the point that there are significantly better offset pieces.
I've come to the conclusion that the T7.5 set pieces are worthless right now. The set bonuses are usually what might make it better, but with the current set bonuses, it's not that great. With the way things are, that extra prayer of mending or -5% mana cost on GH (in my current set, which is slathered with SP, in a raid setting, I can NOT run out of mana GHealing) next to the huge amount of stats that ilvl226 replacements can give you, is worth giving up.
I would think the set bonus is substantially worse for a disc priest if it's already pretty bad for a holy priest.
The real question is... why greater heal at all? I think that's the real reason why T7 pieces aren't good.
But then again, we really should be comparing this to Karazahn/T4, I think tis a GOOD thing they aren't good. I don't want into Ulduar holding on to T7 because of some set bonus. I do think however that stronger set bonuses are warranted for when T9 comes out. That should be the final tier of the cycle and it should be freaking sweet.
Oh and for the record, as others have pointed out, the Gloves are still good. And in regards to Disc priests, you could consider some of the "shadow" pieces. The shadow gloves should be rather nice for Disc priests.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
I had both the Shadow and Healing gloves drop for me at VoA. One quick glance made it pretty obvious that the Shadow gloves are much better for Disc. As long as mana isn't a problem for Disc there really is no point whatsover to take Spirit over output stats like Power, Haste or Crit. Sadly usually the choice isn't: Spirit or output, but rather Spirit or MP/5. And they are both meh.
I've been doing my first Naxx 25 last night, running around in Heroics/Naxx 10 drops as Disc. There was no fight on which I had to have a potion. Loatheb got me close, but that's because we didn't have much AoE healing and I was spamming shields (even though they aren't very effective). Half the raid died at Hegan and I had to renew and shield plenty of slow people and phase two. But his normal damage is so low that my 2nd Shadowfiend was up before I had managed to get down to 5k mana.
And we didn't even have replinishement. Perhaps 6 healers are too much. Who knows. I had heard about Naxx 25 being easy, but I was still surprised that a rag-tag group with undergeared people, not knowing what they're doing wouldn't wipe.
I almost wish we hadn't bothered with Naxx 10. But then one can do both.
Bottom line:
If you're Disc you want the following stats: Spell Power, Haste, Crit.
You're forced to get Stamina and Intellect, but I wouldn't gem Int for the time being.
Spirit and MP/5 are mostly the same in value, I doubt I'd notice the difference. If you can avoid them you should probably do that.
But then I've started picking up a few spirit heavy pieces for if I ever go Holy.
It's time to crack open the discussion on post-nerf CoH Priesting.
With our major blanket heal under a 6s cooldown, the importance of emphasizing cast spells becomes greater. Talents IHC and SoL, and the stats which benefit them, will take up a larger portion of the plate. Whether this will significantly change what's considered the ideal crit threschold is uncertain, but haste definitely gains more value with the consideration that it allows for more IHC-proccing filler casts. At the same, it opens up some room in the gearing budget that would've been reserved for regeneration, as we're suddenly milking more of it from the IHC talent at least. Thoughts?
I believe the great winner of the CoH nerf regarding stats will be Crit, as a greater percentage of our heals will be FH (mostly) and GH, and thus the benefit we get from crit both regen-wise (HC & IHC) as output-wise (IHC) will be much higher.
However, I don’t think SoL usefulness will be higher, quite the contrary, as 6 targets CoH was one of the main sources of SoL procs, and now we will be casting it much less frequently than before.
In my opinion, haste will be still very valuable, but not more than before. After all, once eliminated the possibility of punctual CoH spam, and discounted its effect in GCD reduction, FH and GH will be the only spells we use frequently which will benefit from it, and those will be already getting a lot of haste via more frequent IHC procs.
All in all, given the increase in value of crit and the regen we’ll gain from it, I think the other regen oriented stats will be less necessary, and we’ll focus more in output stats.
My main goal in haste-stacking would be to push the cast time of IHC-enhanced GHeal to something less than a natural flash heal (~1.3 sec). It seems more than possible with the gear that exists, but would involve some heavy gemming, and whether that in itself is worth its costs will be the sole determinant of its viability. As gear level gets better, fights invariably end faster, so I don't necessarily factor sustained throughput as a top item. I guess what this amounts to for now is seeing how much play exists on the stat spread, since 3-drakes is the only difficult encounter at this time and that has no arbitrary time constraints (like KT's 5 minutes of adds).
It's certainly possible to get 15% haste raid buffed, but the irony is you sacrifice crit to do it. It seems like many items have very similar stats except one is crit and one is haste (ex [Ring of Holy Cleansing] vs [Timeworn Silken Band]). My approach has been to get crit to a respectable number (25% raid buffed) and then try to increase haste. Until content gets harder, I tend to value crit more, not due to throughput, but due to free heals. Although, I must say, Greater Heal is a big source of overheal for me (40% or so, compared to 15-20% for PoM/Flash Heal). Often I use IHC for Flash Heal or Binding Heal, due to the shorter cast time and the likelihood that it will top the tank off.
Since the current gear wishlist is in the opinion of the OP I thought I'd post my current best-in-slot aspirations and open them up for criticism by the community.
I generally gear for itemization like [Lost Jewel] - spirit and crit. Spirit and crit are what holy talents benefit the most from, so that's what I want. I take haste when it comes, and some of the ilvl 226 items on my list have haste and are on there simply because the stats on the high-ilvl piece dwarf the lower gear.
I gear for holy, not discipline. To my discipline brethren, i salute you. Were I to make a discipline list, it would probably include less spirit and more haste.
I've never been a big haste freak and have been just fine without it, but I won't turn it down on some of these amazing pieces. If i wanted to cast REALLY REALLY fast, then I'd be a paladin. uberquick isn't my job, nor my goal, though I do sometimes go insane at the slow cast of a gheal...but who doesn't. with the new amazingness that is flash heal, I dont' gheal as often as i used to anyway.
I gem seer's gems because I want spirit, int rules the replenishment game, and both scale with kings and other buffs. haste/crit gems don't scale up. Oh, and Purified Twilight Opal isn't in game yet, so hello luminous.
Once 3.0.8 goes live, if i see my HPS completely go into the toilet b/c of the CoH cooldown (which I don't anticipate) then I might consider more haste for sheer throughput, but that's something to be evaluated once the patch goes live.
Oh, and a tip for fellow [Majestic Dragon Figurine] users - Levitate is a great way to get 10 stacks of this up before a fight begins. The mana cost is tiny enough that you regen it standing there. Also, even more fun when 3.0.8 goes live and we can levitate everyone ^_^
You're not a fan of [Fading Glow]? Even though it doesn't have spirit or crit, and normally I like spirit itemization more than mp5, compared to the Plague Igniter, I would say that 9mp5 is tiny bit better than 20 spirit, and it has 4 more intellect to boot.
While I might be valuing crit a little higher after the coh nerf, I prefer fading glow to the plague igniter at the moment personally, and your only competition for that wand will be other priests.
Often I use IHC for Flash Heal or Binding Heal, due to the shorter cast time and the likelihood that it will top the tank off.
Casting Binding heal when I get a HC to proc seems like a great idea. Even if I am not down that much health, many times I will get another proc. Does anyone know of numbers floating out there comparing using bheal vs flash heal and what one is more effective? I was wondering if other preists did this.
Casting Binding heal when I get a HC to proc seems like a great idea. Even if I am not down that much health, many times I will get another proc. Does anyone know of numbers floating out there comparing using bheal vs flash heal and what one is more effective? I was wondering if other preists did this.
According to warcrafter they both get the same coefficient to +healing, 43% (which makes sense because they have the same cast time). In fact, Binding Heal will scale slightly better if you have any points in Divine Providence. Normally the only downsides to Binding Heal are the high mana cost, the inability to proc Serendipity, grace, or Rapture, or benefit from Renewed Hope. As you're talking about HC procs, none of those matter.
I always use my HC procs for Binding Heal unless I really need the single-target throughput of GH on a tank.
Binding Heal not only heals for more (courtesy of Divine Providence), it has a reasonably higher chance to proc IHC (for 20% crit rate, it has an additional 7.2% IHC proc chance). It does make sense to use an IHC proc on Binding provided you don't need the throughput of GHeal.
To the above poster re: gear choices: picking all ilvl 226 items (where possible) certainly makes sense from a maximizing stat perspective. However, you've got a ton of crit in that setup and (imo, of course) not enough haste. That's why my set has some different pieces (bracers, chest, for example) that push the haste up a little higher.
Re: weapon, if you really want to maximize crit/spirit, you don't want to be using MH/OH. It's your call whether the extra spellpower from the MH/OH combo is worth losing the int & spirit from using a staff.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
Binding Heal not only heals for more (courtesy of Divine Providence), it has a reasonably higher chance to proc IHC (for 20% crit rate, it has an additional 7.2% IHC proc chance). It does make sense to use an IHC proc on Binding provided you don't need the throughput of GHeal.
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Thank you, Constatius. It always felt like the right thing to do, its just good seeing the numbers. I run into priests all the time that think Bheal is useless. With the math you provided I can show them the error in there ways.
i must agree the t7.5 set does not do much for a disc priest 5 % extra on a spell i barely use .. so your beter off on geting part of the holy set with parts of the sp set for the crit they provide ... but there other items out there that are far beter as well ..
Hopefully blizz makes a set just for disc witch would be realy nice like a 5% less mana on penace set bonus or something basicly anithing would be beter than 5 % on G heals lol
You're not a fan of [Fading Glow]? Even though it doesn't have spirit or crit, and normally I like spirit itemization more than mp5, compared to the Plague Igniter, I would say that 9mp5 is tiny bit better than 20 spirit, and it has 4 more intellect to boot.
While I might be valuing crit a little higher after the coh nerf, I prefer fading glow to the plague igniter at the moment personally, and your only competition for that wand will be other priests.
I would take Wand of the Archlich over fading glow. I usually eschew mp5 on gear as eating up my itemization because spirit scales and does more than just provide regen. bonus healing is another benefit. additionally, per the regen formula, the more int/spirit you have, the more you benefit from it. well, that is, the more int you have the more your spirit is worth. Also, while it's true that in the current gear the 9 mp5 will probably provide a bit more regen than 20 spirit, I only ever truly find myself hurting for mana when there is no replenishment, or when we're short on other healers in the raid, or simply when the encounter just sucks out my mana like there's a hole in the bottom of my blue bar :P (aka: me spamming CoH while people l2malygos)
I think though I might switch plague igniter out and only go for wand of the archlich after thinking on it some more, you hooked me into looking at the wands closer, Isin :-)
Originally Posted by constantius
To the above poster re: gear choices: picking all ilvl 226 items (where possible) certainly makes sense from a maximizing stat perspective. However, you've got a ton of crit in that setup and (imo, of course) not enough haste. That's why my set has some different pieces (bracers, chest, for example) that push the haste up a little higher.
Yeah it's true that I do end up with a Lot of crit in that setup and not as much haste, but I think we just differ on how much haste each of us likes to run with. If I valued haste a bit more I could probably swap out the bracers and chest, just as you said, and that's definitely something I'll consider in the future. I have a feeling I'm going to like haste a lot more post-3.0.8, but for now I'm stickin' to my guns At the worst, being crit-heavy means more chances to proc HC/IHC. Some might argue that overdoing the crit could lead to overlapping IHC speedy casts, but I'm willing to risk that, considering with 45% chance on crit it's not like that would happen often enough to really be a ridiculous waste.
Originally Posted by constantius
Re: weapon, if you really want to maximize crit/spirit, you don't want to be using MH/OH. It's your call whether the extra spellpower from the MH/OH combo is worth losing the int & spirit from using a staff.
Also very correct, that's something I've always noticed, that the 2H vs. MH/OH dilemma is usually stats vs. spellpower. I usually go with MH/OH. In most cases I don't consider what my spellpower is at, just assuming that if the other stats on gear are in line the spellpower will be there, but in my mind getting the greater spellpower from a MH/OH will give higher throughput over time. Kind of that mana regen issue again but from the opposite side, I suppose. I may be a spirit freak, but losing out on ~60+ spellpower (~120 once i switch to the torch) for some int/spi and crit or haste doesn't sound like a tradeoff I want to make.
That's probably the same reason I have my weapon enchanted with +63 spell instead of +45 spirit --- 63 spellpower is just too huge to disregard.
While we're on the topic of post-CoH nerf, what glyph is recommended to replace the CoH glyph with? The extra target with the heal just doesn't seem worth it with the 6 second cd. I was thinking PW:S glyph, but I use that so rarely as deep holy that it seems almost as useless.
While we're on the topic of post-CoH nerf, what glyph is recommended to replace the CoH glyph with? The extra target with the heal just doesn't seem worth it with the 6 second cd. I was thinking PW:S glyph, but I use that so rarely as deep holy that it seems almost as useless.
I'm not following your train of thought here. You can't spam the ability mindlessly anymore so you don't see the benefit to it having a more beneficial effect when you can cast it? There isn't anything else remotely as useful for Holy unless we're specifically talking Heroics.
I would take Wand of the Archlich over fading glow. I usually eschew mp5 on gear as eating up my itemization because spirit scales and does more than just provide regen. bonus healing is another benefit. additionally, per the regen formula, the more int/spirit you have, the more you benefit from it. well, that is, the more int you have the more your spirit is worth. Also, while it's true that in the current gear the 9 mp5 will probably provide a bit more regen than 20 spirit, I only ever truly find myself hurting for mana when there is no replenishment, or when we're short on other healers in the raid, or simply when the encounter just sucks out my mana like there's a hole in the bottom of my blue bar :P (aka: me spamming CoH while people l2malygos)
I think though I might switch plague igniter out and only go for wand of the archlich after thinking on it some more, you hooked me into looking at the wands closer, Isin :-)
Yeah Archlich is clearly BiS, but that's partly cause it's 226 while the other two are 213.
There is no ilvl 226 wand in-game. The confusion might have been because the above poster saw that the drop was from Kel'Thuzad and failed to realized that it was from his 10-man version.
Originally Posted by Erzz
While we're on the topic of post-CoH nerf, what glyph is recommended to replace the CoH glyph with? The extra target with the heal just doesn't seem worth it with the 6 second cd. I was thinking PW:S glyph, but I use that so rarely as deep holy that it seems almost as useless.
The CoH change doesn't warrant a re-glyph, but if, like me, you were using the spirit of redemption glyph, consider the following:
"Glyph of Spirit Redemption - Increases the duration of Spirit of Redemption by 6 seconds. (Old - All heals cast while Spirit of Redemption is active have a 20% chance to increase the remaining duration of Spirit of Redemption by 4sec."
**Taken from PTR Patch 3.0.8 - Build 9438 on Jan 9, 09**
Not [Glyph of Dispel Magic] because I haven't seen enough things to dispel in current content to warrant this glyph (more of a pvp glyph considering current content)
Not [Glyph of Renew] because I would rather use a flash heal, more effective.
and Not [Glyph of Holy Nova] because I love holy nova just the way it is! Seriously though, this one might be a good idea.
Well dang, that leaves me with only 2 majors, doesn't it? lame. Who knows what I will pick, I rarely use PW:S as holy b/c we have a disc priest, and I was going to pass on the other glyphs for the reasons I specified...opinions? which should be used? I feel like the third glyph is kind of arbitrary, but if someone has a compelling reason to use a particular glyph, please pro-tip me.
[Glyph of Fading] because I cast fort/shadowprot out of combat and can drink
The Shadow Protection glyph is actually relatively useful because I always forget to recast the single-target version and because I always feel bad burning a candle on a 20 minute group buff (the glyph adds 10 minutes to both).
Well dang, that leaves me with only 2 majors, doesn't it? lame. Who knows what I will pick, I rarely use PW:S as holy b/c we have a disc priest, and I was going to pass on the other glyphs for the reasons I specified...opinions? which should be used? I feel like the third glyph is kind of arbitrary, but if someone has a compelling reason to use a particular glyph, please pro-tip me.
There's never really been an outstanding third major glyph. Use whichever one makes you feel happy, at least until Blizzard suddenly realizes there isn't a Greater Heal glyph (or a Penance glyph) and we all end up using it, whatever it ends up being.
I'll keep the CoH and Flash Heal Glyphs, those are kind of no brainers, but the third glyph, which was devoted Redemption, will have to be changed.
Likely suspects are the Renew glyph, because it's still useful to keep ticking on the main/off tanks, or possibly the Prayer of Healing glyph, because I have a sneaking suspicion that this spell will see plenty of use until they indeed tone down AoE damage.
In 3.1, we can only hope for a stronger glyph - Greater Heal, Binding heal, or even perhaps Guardian Spirit.
If you want to use Prayer of Healing, you might as well get the Holy Nova glyph. 3 second cast time on Prayer of Healing means it's going to get sniped quite often and that 20% HoT isn't going to help much.
Though; I can see it being more powerful in the 10 mans.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
If you want to use Prayer of Healing, you might as well get the Holy Nova glyph. 3 second cast time on Prayer of Healing means it's going to get sniped quite often and that 20% HoT isn't going to help much.
Though; I can see it being more powerful in the 10 mans.
I would disagree; Prayer of healing's power is in it's range, I would have to be VERY close to everyone to land with Holy Nova; Prayer has a very decent range; enough to hit basically everyone in your group, whether you are with the casters or the melees or the main tank. No way I'll use Holy Nova in a raid situation; the range just isn't there.
My PoH is 5k healing, per person, to the raid. 20% is an extra 1k healing, a extra5k healing from a glyph will be better good, if PoH sees use on anything other then decimate from Gluth/malygos/loatheb.
01/08/09, 9:03 AM
At the worst, being crit-heavy means more chances to proc HC/IHC. Some might argue that overdoing the crit could lead to overlapping IHC speedy casts, but I'm willing to risk that, considering with 45% chance on crit it's not like that would happen often enough to really be a ridiculous waste.
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