WotLK Healing Compendium v3.0 [theorycraft, specs, etc] - Page 5

PowerBaton · 10/30/08, 4:09 AM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

s something like 1 proc every 40 seconds, or 40odd mp5. I call that very underwhelming.

Why where the procs useful. Do you mean to say that people would have died if you did not have it? Are you sure that casting another instant like PoM would not have had the exact same effect?

First of all, PoM procs after hit so if your target got lawl 2% hp PoM won't prevent it from death, just jump and it always cost mana (SoL proc not)

Personally i love SoL, on fights like Felmyst, or KJ it's must be talent in my opinion, i got 24 of SoL procs on last KJ and every i used.

and on beta aswell, there is alot situations when SoL save my/raid ass. for ex. Meaxxna, when spiders come there is a little raid dmg, use CoH, get SoL proc and use it after webs on dying tank.

Crow · 10/30/08, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by constantius

Ad. 2: you're right, not sure where my number came from. I'll take a closer look at what I was theoretically thinking later when my head is less fuzzy.

Ad. 4: I haven't seen my Shadowfiend return less than 10 hits @ 4% each so far in 3.0.x. Max so far is 15, minimum 11. That is, of course, excepting cases where I'm stupid and launch him into AE of death.

In that case, modeling as ~ 40% is reasonable, I think.

Ad. 5: You're right that this was never anything but a hack model. We could debate this one forever. I'll run another pass at it and see what I come up with. Either way we do it, it's fairly small compared to Replenishment, mana pool, and shadowfiend. At 167 int per percent crit, it's not going to scale quickly at all.

The value at the end should have just been the sum of all of the factors, multiplied by the scaling factors allowed (BoK for holy, BoK+MS for disc). Of course, who knows. I asked for some feedback on the models, but this is the first I've seen. I'll see what I can integrate and get back to y'all.

I was checking if I agree with your calculations rather than with the model, as I am nowhere near experienced enough to debate the latter with you (I am not in beta and I didn't step into SW before 3.0). In the point about shadowfiend I was referring to section V.b of your compendium (taking advantage of shadowfiend), where you suggest to model his returns as 25-35%.

Same for the returns from IHC. The model you suggested while estimating holy crit value is a 50/50 split between BH and GH. In the point 5 of the list however, there is a note that 0.114 mp5 is the value of 1 int in 50/50 split between FH and GH (over 6 min fight). The 0.114 mp5 value is the value for 50/50 BH/GH split. The value for 50/50 FH/BH split is 0.063 mp5. Depending on model returns from IHC free casts are worth slightly more or slightly less than shadowfiend returns.

EDIT: seems I have miscalculated this as well, the mp5 value per point of int in 50/50 FH/GH split should be 26*0.01*0.45*6*1054/167/72 = 0.061. In other word it is 0.00224 times the number of casts that may proc ihc, which is almost two times lower for fh/gh split than it is for bh/gh split.

Starfire · 10/30/08, 2:27 PM

Havoc12, have you considered using Surge of Light to proc Judgement of Wisdom? (Although I beleive Judgement of Wisdom just got nerfed / is being changed).

l337n00b · 10/30/08, 4:07 PM

With the rapture formula you stated (which holds up to testing for me with both heals and shields) int has a furhter function for discipline priest mana regen beyond increasing criticals to proc Aegis.

Since the formula is:

max mana/base mana * healing done * 0.01035

And each point of int gives you (assuming kings) 1.15*1.1*15 = 18.975 mana

Each point of int gives increases the amount of mana you get per point of effective healing or per point absorbed by 18.975/3863 * 0.01035 = 0.00005084.

That may look like a really small number, but over the course of a raid encounter, you might heal for half a million (a number off the top of my head for level 80) which would mean 25 more mana, which would account for about 0.353 Mp5, putting the Mp5 value of 1 Int up to 0.988 Mp5. It would be worthwhile to revise my random 500,000 guesstimate to get a more accurate picture, but even at half of that Int would be nearly twice as effective as spirit for mana regen for discipline priests.

Kellyz · 10/30/08, 4:29 PM

I read through the forums, and I am completely baffled as to why anyone would spec into improved inner light? Why not silent resolve? I tried to look around for this reasoning. Could someone tell me

kalbear · 10/30/08, 4:30 PM

I read through the forums, and I am completely baffled as to why anyone would spec into improved inner light? Why not silent resolve? I tried to look around for this reasoning. Could someone tell me

Inner fire at level 71 also boosts spellpower. Silent Resolve is essentially unnecessary, as threat is not a concern in any reasonable environment.

Kellyz · 10/30/08, 4:42 PM

Now, about holy concentration and improved concentration, it seems to me that you need more crit to make this even proc. I'm not happy with this talent as it is because it doesnt proc as much as I would like it to. Shouldn't this be more of a paladin thing? If i was to pick this talent tree up... i guess I would have to put 5/5 in holy specialization?

Any thoughts on this talent?

typobox · 10/30/08, 4:43 PM

They're both weak talents, but Improved Inner Fire at least does something, which is more than you can say about Silent Resolve with the current state of tank threat. Of course, if the threat situation changes, it's easy to move the Inner Fire points over later.

[e]

Originally Posted by Kellyz

Now, about holy concentration and improved concentration, it seems to me that you need more crit to make this even proc. I'm not happy with this talent as it is because it doesnt proc as much as I would like it to. Shouldn't this be more of a paladin thing? If i was to pick this talent tree up... i guess I would have to put 5/5 in holy specialization?

Any thoughts on this talent?

5/5 Holy Specialization is a pretty good idea with the Holy tree in the state that it's in now. In general, especially at level 80, you will have more critical strike chance than you're used to having due to itemization and the new preference for Intellect for regen. Crit has a ton of extra effects now - with (Improved) Holy Concentration being tied to it, Surge of Light, Serendipity, and the old standby Inspiration among other things that probably aren't immediately coming to mind, it's definitely worth it. Neither Healing Focus or Improved Renew are exceptionally good talents anymore, with the changes to spell pushback and the fact that you'll probably just be casting Renew less often than before. Those points can be moved into Holy Specialization.

Imua · 10/30/08, 4:54 PM

I didn't see a section on Glyphs. I am assuming that once Blizzard actually implements some more Glyphs for Priests, that it may prove useful. (Right now, it seems like the top three are Flash Heal, Renew, and PW:S. Although I did that off the top of my head.)

Healing Focus *MAY* be useful. With a Conc Aura, you can get to 100+% non-pushback. In most cases, a little pushback is not much to worry about. However, any pushback does basically kill that last pulse of Penance, which negates its effect by a bit. Is it worth 2 talents points and a Conc Aura? *shrug*

PI and PS both are just fun tools to have now. Maybe at 80 there may be more use, but right now, they're just for fun, and their effects feel limited. The threat-down component on a dps from PS is a non-issue. 1) Tank threat is much higher than before and 2) Hand of Salvation is a much better threat reduction tool. (We don't have it, but I assume you raid with paladins who know what they're doing) PI is still just for fun. Maybe when dps races get back in the game, it'll be useful. However, raid-wide Heroism/Bloodlust is a better buff (that will overwrite your PI)

faesomething · 10/30/08, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by Imua

Healing Focus *MAY* be useful. With a Conc Aura, you can get to 100+% non-pushback. In most cases, a little pushback is not much to worry about. However, any pushback does basically kill that last pulse of Penance, which negates its effect by a bit. Is it worth 2 talents points and a Conc Aura? *shrug*

It's my understanding that Healing Focus and Concentration Aura do not stack, so the points in healing focus only give you at best .15secs less push back.

typobox · 10/30/08, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by Imua

Healing Focus *MAY* be useful. With a Conc Aura, you can get to 100+% non-pushback. In most cases, a little pushback is not much to worry about. However, any pushback does basically kill that last pulse of Penance, which negates its effect by a bit. Is it worth 2 talents points and a Conc Aura? *shrug*

Haven't personally tested it, but I'm pretty sure that Concentration Aura and Healing Focus don't stack. If you've got an Improved Concentration Aura in the raid, you're looking at spending two talent points to gain 15% pushback reduction. I can see the argument for Discipline priests regarding Penance, but certainly for Holy that can't be worth the points. There's far too many other places that those points can be put to good use.

[e] ninja'd

constantius · 10/30/08, 5:11 PM

Re: Glyphs:

- Flash Heal glyph is almost required, since it's our bread & butter mid-range heal now
- CoH glyph is a no-brainer for any Holy priest; 6 targets is awesome
- PW:S glyph is actually good for both specs; Holy can possibly replaced it with the Dispel Magic Glyph

Minor glyphs don't matter, although no-reagent Levitate is awesome.

YukinoHana · 10/30/08, 5:54 PM

Originally Posted by constantius

Minor glyphs don't matter, although no-reagent Levitate is awesome.

Wouldn't the Glyph of Shadowfiend be the ideal raiding glyph in case of mis-timing the shadowfiend and it wanders into AoE or other such mishaps?

Havoc12 · 10/30/08, 6:26 PM

Originally Posted by Xiv

SoL is great for cheating the FSR without slacking on raid healing.

After using your first proc and while out of the FSR, a new SoL (generated through PoM that jumps like a charm) can proc while you use hymn of hope. Add inner focus + some aoe heal and you proc another SoL which you can use to stay out the FSR as well.

Thats a lot of mana gain.

That situation you are describing is maybe once a fight. You have to subtract the gain from the potential uses of IF without SoL. Its a drop in the ocean.

Originally Posted by PowerBaton

First of all, PoM procs after hit so if your target got lawl 2% hp PoM won't prevent it from death, just jump and it always cost mana (SoL proc not)

Personally i love SoL, on fights like Felmyst, or KJ it's must be talent in my opinion, i got 24 of SoL procs on last KJ and every i used.

and on beta aswell, there is alot situations when SoL save my/raid ass. for ex. Meaxxna, when spiders come there is a little raid dmg, use CoH, get SoL proc and use it after webs on dying tank.

PoM heals for about as much as a flash heal.

Making a 1.5 flash heal instant wont save your tank.

constantius · 10/30/08, 7:06 PM

If you're using SoL procs on your tank, you're missing the point. Making SoL instant is a good thing. And as argued up a few posts, PoM has the downside that if someone is down enough HP, it may never proc, because they're dead. Flash can save them in that situation.

It's a good talent. It scales with crit. It's fun. It gives us another mobility healing tool. There's really not much to hate about it. Yes, Healing Prayers is more pure regen. However, that's all it is.

This is exactly the same argument that was used by people saying the original version of DP was better than MA. And it was ... unless you want pure regen. So in the same way that MA > DP for pure regen (even if slightly), HP > SoL. But SoL has applications and extra use, whereas HP is a pure mana cost savings. So for the same reason most people are going 14/57/0 instead of 20/51/0, most people will take SoL over HP.

Now stop arguing about it.