Sinndir

You should still use the CoH Glyph, there really are no substitutes for CoH and Flash.

For majors you have these 'useful' options in PvE content:

[Glyph of Dispel Magic] - Very useful, even after the nerf.
[Glyph of Mass Dispel] - Not as useful as the one above, but still not bad if you use it enough and have mental agility/absolution or are disc spec.
[Glyph of Prayer of Healing] - Could be very good in certain situations (ie. Loatheb)

As for minors I really like the shadowfiend one, and the shadow protection one is very useful for keeping my sanity.

 

Morakk

I don't think PoH getting sniped is too much of an issue. If you are going to use PoH, it's because you know everyone in your party is going to take a significant amount of damage at the same time, which is often very predictable damage. Also, communication and raid setup help. Not completely stacking groups around holy priests, but at least have ranged/healers separated from melee and have shaman chain heal the melee first.

I personally don't use the shadow protection glyph. I cast more than enough forts in combat on battle rezzed players or shamans to justify it. We also run very paladin heavy, so much of the time it's easier for me to yell at one of them to put up an aura. When I do have to buff it, I can't really complain about a whole 16 silver per cast....

I don't feel I fade enough to warrant the glyph of fading (maybe it's useful for sarth 10+3, I wouldn't yet know).

I second the comments on new glyphs for gheal/GS/penance/binding.

 

Lambi

PoH is the king of 10-mans, I'd glyph for PoH just for the sake of me running so many 10-mans every week. When you become very good at using PoH and you know the fights inside out, it starts being an extremely powerful tool in 25-mans too. The actual strengths is that 1. it heals for a massive amount, 2. it has huge range, 3. it has a cast time(!), 4. the combination of 1-2-3.

I'll give you guys a few scenarios:

A. Loatheb, you time your PoH for hitting just before the debuff runs out giving you a gcd open for CoH also. The glyph doesn't help so much here if you don't cast PoH too far in advance.

B. Malygos, after vortex is a clear given but what alot of priests don't know is that you can start casting PoH when you see Maly targetting someone else than the MT for his aoe damage. If you see 3 or more targets in your group get hit you let the PoH land, if you see less get hit just abort PoH for and use whatever other heal you'd like to use (probably a CoH). In p2 PoH is the best heal available for his deep breaths too.

C. Sarth3D 10-man. A wall is starting to form, twilight torment is up and your most beloved spell CoH is on a 6 sec cooldown! Cast PoH - just when it lands you cast CoH while running away from the wall.

D. Sapphiron 10 and 25. PoH is a given spell here, and this is the most obvious fight where you'll see how much good the glyph is actually doing. PoHing with and without glyph is a world of change on this fight.

You'll see what wonders PoH and later on what the PoH glyph can achieve. You just need to get used to it, and try running with as few healers as possible.

 

the_nell_87

I'd agree with you in some parts, but not in others.
PoH being godly in 5 and 10-mans is a given. And on Loatheb, splitting priests up to get 3-4 groups PoH'd obviously makes the fight much easier. Same logic for Sapphiron post-CoH-nerf, I'd imagine, but I'm still used to CoH spam on that fight.
But on almost all other 25-man fights, it's extremely situational. It's only worth it if, as you say, 3 or more people in my group get hit by about 5k+ of damage. Pre-casting PoH to land as damage happens (and cancelling if not enough people are damaged) is only a good strategy if you know you won't have anything else to do in those 3 seconds. Otherwise it's a waste of 3 seconds if not enough people are hurt.
And also, if you run with several priest healers, on a longer fight it may well not be viable to split them up into groups for PoH. Sometimes it's better to be grouped with a resto shaman for mana spring/tide.

I do think PoH has the potential to be a major healing spell for us, but only very situationally, except on specific fights. There simply aren't enough fights at the moment which justify extensive PoH use.

 

Ranc

The problem with PoH is it doesnt really sit well with auto targeting heals (Shammies CH etc), if the CoH nerf does mean Shammie stacking again PoH is even more rarely worth casting.

The situation with CoH wasnt that its just too strong, its basically way too good at sniping other classes heals. Makes the Holy priest numbers much higher than the rest as we have stolen there heals.

The hit for us will not just be in our heal output but also in the way no spam of CoH will boost everyone elses actual healing.

When the dust settles I can see our pure numbers being double hit because of this, leading to a lot of crying and some sort of buff, my money long term is on PoH going raid wide for a nerfed amount.

BTW anyone else beginning to consider dumping a lot of spirit in favour of int these days. I've been thinking more about where I'll be at dual spec, and as thats almost certain to be disc and Holy I need disc heal gearing.
Tweaking to Int doesnt seem to kill my Holy regen at all so far the only hit seems to be Spell power, which seems much harder to get hold.
So im off the cheap distilled wisdom and onto SP flask
and will probably swap out the Spirit for SP on my main weapon enchant..again not cheap
Ill still have Spirit on my regen swap weapon though ofc.

Overall sacrificing spirit after all these years does seem to have been less of an issue than I felt it would be, and it leaves the gear much better for Disc dual spec.

EDIT
Quoting the recent blue here as it may give some indication of where we are heading --

One of the best things I got out of all of the CoH nerfing discussion was players pointing out where they thought Renew (maybe it needs to benefit from more talents), Binding Heal (maybe it's too expensive) or PoH (fill in the blank) might be falling short. That's good stuff.

(I edited out the last bit where it told people who cant accept CoH changes to reroll another class :P)

 

metapseudo

I have calculated proceeds of Jetz'e Bell for two nights of Naxxramas 25 to get better understanding of its mp5 value.
Source is WWS of those nights, it was full clear of the instance and I have taken only those proceeds that occured during boss fights (mana is an issue during bosses)

Total duration: 5602 sec
Total procs: 70
Avg interval between procs: 80 sec
Avg mp5 18.7

Data for individual boss figths are here:

 

Plitschplatsch

Since we are talking trinkets right now: [Mercurial Alchemist Stone]

It has 50 haste , 59 spell power and a nice effect on mana potions:

Runic Mana Potion 4300 Mana * 40% / 60 (5s) = 28.7 mp5 in a 5 minute boss fight /14.4 mp5 in a 10 minute boss fight


So compared to Je'Tze'Bel:

106 spell power and a proc which averages at 18.7 mp5 according to metaspeudo's data.

It seems to me as if Je'Tze'Bel was a side grade to the alchemy trinket.
I'd like to hear other people's opinion on this, especially since i can't seem to find the alchemy trinket in the compendium.

 

Havoc12

IHC is equivalent to 42.8% haste. It only takes an extra 6% or so haste from gear to reduce flash heal cast time to 1 second. It takes 34.6% more haste to reduce Gheal to 1.3seconds.

The maximum relevant amount of useful haste if a shaman is in the group is around 15%.

IHC uptime is



Adding c amount of extra crit changes that to



And obviously decreases the mana cost of gheal and flash by 0.45*c.

At 10% crit 1% crit increases uptime from 0.19 to 0.2079. The benefit is 1.79%. The increase in throughput is 1.79%*42.8% = 0.77% haste.

At 20% the uptime increases from 0.36 to 0.3759. That 1.59% more, which is 0.68% haste.

The problem is that this is proc haste not constant haste and if u use clearcasting to gain ooFSR time, then you pretty much lose the throughput aspect. Item haste offers significantly better return for throughput.

The value of crit in terms of mana return is much lower than both int and spirit.

 

Akarai

As an alchemist myself, I am using the alchemist stone less and using [Majestic Dragon Figurine] more, especially during longer fights where I am almost constantly casting. The spell power and haste on the alchemist stone are very nice but for mana regen, there are just better options. Also, you have to pot to gain the mp5 benefit from the mercurial alchemist stone, meanwhile the mp5 bonus from other trinkets are a constant.

As for Je'Tze's Bell, I think this is a huge upgrade to the alchemist trinket. The raw spell power being the biggest draw for me personally but the extra mana you get from it is also a nice bonus. Once the patch hits I don't think I'll ever use my alchemist trinket again over this.

 

Morakk

While this is true, why would you wear a regen trinket before using mana pots?

 

Isin

I'm not an alchemist, but I agree with Akarai generally. The main problem with the Alchemist stone is that the value of the stone decreases with the length of the fight.

 

Akarai

Overall benefit. Blizzard put the one pot per fight rule in so mana pots would be more of an "oh crap" button rather than an addition to our mp5. That is how I look at them now and I think it is much more beneficial for you overall to have the constant regen than equipping a trinket for something you may or may not use.

Edit for clarification -
I am not trying to say that the alchemist trinket isn't worthy. I do think it is a fantastic trinket, especially when just starting 10/25 mans. However, since my gear has improved (ie. more spell power, haste and overall regen) since I first equiped it, I have found other trinkets just becoming more useful and appealing because I no longer *need* the raw stats that it provides. I do still use it on about 50% of fights but mostly due to the spell power, not because of the potion bonus, which is why I believe the Je'Tze's Bell is an upgrade to it.

 

Morakk

Fair enough.

I guess my reaction to the one pot per fight rule, was to make potting even more automatic, since it's no longer a potentially open ended expense.

 

bbartlog

But you don't say why you think this. It looks like a sidegrade to me, as someone else suggested, or frankly even inferior.

- In a pure throughput situation where mana regen isn't an issue, the stone is superior. For example, suppose you are spamming Greater Heals and they're hitting for 9K with neither trinket. The addition of the bell gets you 106 spellpower, which assuming an average coefficient of around 2 (counting in crits and talents) gets you an additional 106*2/2.5 or 85 hps. Meanwhile the stone gets you 59 spellpower for 47 hps, but also 1.5% faster casting for another 54 hps for a total of 101 hps.

- in a five minute fight, the Stone has an effective ten additional mp5 (29 vs 19 by the numbers in this thread). Though it depends somewhat on what spells you choose for your model, this is worth more in a healing pool simulation than the additional 47 spellpower from the Bell, by a margin of 20 to 30% or more.

- In an arbitrarily long fight, the Bell is ultimately worth more. Probably around the seven minute mark it passes the Stone in terms of utility. There are some fights that were this long when my guild first learned them (we took 7 minutes on Loatheb and Sapphiron) but in general fights this long are a bit of a rarity and I definitely wouldn't call it a 'huge upgrade' just on that basis.

It does save you the cost of mana pots if you are in a situation where you would need them with the stone but don't need them when using the bell. But in terms of maxing out your capabilities I think the Alchemist Stone is generally superior.

 

Plitschplatsch

Another point for the Alchemy trinket: it's mana effect is more predictable. While it probably averages out in long fights, i still think it's a minor advantage.

Overall it seems to me that it's not worth "up"grading from the Alchemy trinket to Je'ze'bel for several 1000 gold.

 

Isin

This seems silly, you have narrowed the universe of trinkets to two. If mana regen isn't an issue then neither trinket is particularly good- there are many better options out there for throughput.

 

Akarai

You are going under the assumption that everyone pots once per fight. If that is the case then yes, the stone offers much more versatility than the bell. However, if you eliminate the mp5 you gain from the stone (for fights when you don't pot) then it become more objective; spell power and mp5 vs spell power and haste. It really comes down to personal play style and where you stand gear wise. I do not pot once per fight so I will take the constant mp5 over the situational any day.

I also think using GH as your guide to how much hps you get from one trinket to the other isn't really a fair look at how much raw spell power effects many more widely used spells, such as PoM, renew (for me anyway), CoH, SoL procs, etc. The haste you get from that trinket has a minimal effect on the global cooldown of instant casts, which are 60%+ of my spells cast. More spell power works better in that case.

As a side note, the spell power is extremely important to holy priests who have more than one priest in their raids. I would rather lose some haste and hps but not get my PoM's overwritten.

 

bbartlog

I, personally, didn't narrow the universe of trinkets to two. If you read the last dozen or so posts, you will see that Plitschplatsch was specifically interested in comparing these two, and my post was in reply to that admittedly narrow question.

The only other spells of interest to look at for pure hps would be Prayer of Healing and Circle of Healing. Je'tze's Bell comes close to matching the throughput boost of the Alchemist Stone for CoH, because the total spellpower coefficient is large compared to the base amount healed by the spell. For Prayer of Healing spam the stone is better again (~5 total spellpower coefficient over three seconds is about 80 hps for the extra spellpower on the bell, while you gain 120 or so hps for the haste on the stone).
Most of the other spells you mention are covered under the second case. The main interesting thing I will have to look at is Prayer of Mending. Because it is such an awesomely efficient spell (in fights like Sapphiron or similar where it gets a workout), the fact that extra spellpower lets you do more of your healing with PoM rather than less good spells may mean that my current model undervalues spellpower for that situation.

 

Esthern

There are also other useful alternatives in the manner specified [Signet of Manifested Pain] - a list for the sake of completeness:

[Cosmic Lights] (often mentioned)
[Valorous Handwraps of Faith] (shadow version)
[Pennant Cloak]
[Gothik's Cowl]

 

Ranc

You missed Int also benefits Hymn of hope for regen purposes to further strengthen the int regen side, its a touch situational but on most bosses that are mana sensitive I find some time to get this cast off.

My maths isnt great so its a bit rough in places but assuming I understand what you've posted about regen correctly, the [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] seems erm great . Im assuming higher int than spirit to ensure the 300 int proc (300 spirit is great if you could have the effect when you need it 300 int seems better for a random proc to me)

0.53%crit on the base stat (+0.45% averaged proc - assume 1pm proc)
16.875 MP5 replenishment (+14.06 mp5 ave proc)
18.72 mp5 mana pool (nil proc)
7.47 mp5 from fiend (fiend after proc for approx 20 mp5)
17.46 mp5 meditation (+14.55 mp5 proc)
10.26 mp5 holy IHC (+8.55 mp5 proc) OR 1.53 mp5 disc DA/rapt (+1.275 mp5 proc)

holy thats 71Mp5 + 57mp5 procced x 1.1 = 140 mp5 and 1% crit
disc thats 61mp5 + 50 mp5 procced x 1.265 = 140 mp5 and 1.24% crit

both not including Hymn of hope - which can be used after a proc of course.

Next patch should make the cards a lot cheaper as well.

 

Crow

I wanted to disagree with the statement that int proc is better than spirit proc, but unfortunately math does not wish to cooperate in achieving this:<.

Even without the benefits of initial mana pool the base regen you gain from int from meditation+replenishment (80% I5SR) is roughly the same as the regen you gain from spirit from meditation (still 80% FSR). Now, using fiend when you got +int proc gives you 1800 additional mana. The natural instinct to would be to try to counter it with oo5sr time when we get the +spirit proc.

Unfortunately oo5sr mana regen from +300 spirit is only ~120mp5 more than from +300 int. This means we would need to get 75 seconds oo5sr for spirit proc to become as good as int proc. In other words, assuming 1 proc per minute, we would have to be oo5sr all the time we get +spirit proc (5*15sec) for it to become as good as +int proc (using fiend once every 5 minutes).

This obviously ignores +86 spellpower we get from spirit proc.

 

Ranc

Didnt really want to agree with it myself, I've been heavy spirit for years. But it certainly appears spirit based priests - me included - have been living in a pre replenishment, pre new regen mechanics, pre dont have time to get in FSR much anymore world. Infact just about everything thats changed has nerfed spirit and boosted int for us.

now as you mention Spell power i've got some news there as well ......

Int does infact have a spell power bonus! due to its inherent crit the 300 int procced would provide 2% crit Holy and 2.72% disc.
That clearly has a spell power benefit in amount of heal points put out over xx time.
Trouble in trying to calculate what that is in relation to spell power is it seems to get very complicated, spell power varies with each spells applied modifier which varies with talents as well...
assuming a 5k Flash heal and an average 7.5k crit, the bonus is 2500 heal points, and at 2% bonus thats 1 in 50 casts will get me that 2500 healing so the comparison to spirit spell power bonus on 50 casts is -

holy spirit 50x86xFH modifier(43%?+20%EH)= 2709
holy int = 2500

so using flash heal as the example theres barely anymore bonus in Spell power given by spirit than int's crit component.

Id be happy for someone to rip holes in this tbh as I have a soft spot for spirit, yeah the static bonus all the time is more useful than the crit SP bonus but the armor procs and IHC's haste are cool and imho more than make up for that - let alone the real regen reasons to prefer int.

 

Distomos

The recent trend in this thread seems to be "post your thoughts, don't read the rest." Several pages back, a discussion regarding [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] was instigated and responded to. If you would have searched a little further than constantius' first post (as "Darkmoon" warrants the results), you would have discovered this little gem:

There's also a great response by Morakk, as well.

Personally, I have used the +90 intellect option and kept my spirit higher since creating the trinket in early December. Two reasons for this: first, I enjoy cheating the 5SR (I like knowing when it procs and trying to get the most out of it) and, secondly, I find it quite annoying that my mana bar physically appears to have less mana albeit actually having more. Extremely silly, I know. But, I found it frustrating at a mere glance. After battling with the +300 spirit, +300 intellect discussion in my head for far too long, I'm now of the opinion that it really is a personal preference. Neither of the choices for a proc are "bad," just as neither of the choices for a +stat option are atrocious. No one is going to look at your trinket and say: "Ew, he/she got the +90 spirit option. How moronic!" The only way that would happen if is you picked +90 agility and were too unobservant to notice. So, keep your eyes open, and you're fine.

 

Incoherence

I also have this nagging feeling that at some point Blizzard is going to realize that intellect is better than spirit for holy priests, they're going to decide that's silly (just like the pre-2.3 situation with mp5, although [Royal Nightseye] was part of that), and they're going to change something in the patch after this one (3.1?) to make that no longer the case.

Now, that said, that'll be several months from now, but if you're considering burning 10k gold or whatever Greatness goes for on your server, it might be something to consider.

 

• constantius

They might realize that, but there's nothing they can do about it. They were the ones who decided to make Replenishment tied to our intellect instead of a flat rate ... their bad. Only way to really make us non-dependent upon Intellect (and make Spirit valuable again) is to change Hymn of Hope, Shadowfiend, Mana Tide, and Replenishment to work off something other than our raw mana pool. Which ... I highly highly doubt they will even think about doing. As far as they're concerned, the system works.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein