Cydon

Actually, as far as they're concerned the system doesn't work. Considering GC's posts on mana management being too easy, they might end up nerfing replenishment somewhat. Of course, this is just speculation, but it could still be something to keep in the back of your head.

 

Incoherence

As far as I'm concerned, a regen nerf (to max mana effects or otherwise) somewhere around 3.1 is a foregone conclusion. At this point I'm basically back to where I was in 2.4 as far as longevity goes, and if I get another couple percent crit/couple percent haste/150 more intellect/150 more spirit then it's going to be really, really hard for them to challenge healer mana. And it's not like the other healers are exactly struggling for mana either.

 

Tattersail

Hey all

Today I did some quick math to try and find out what the effect of haste not reducing the Penance cooldown on HPS and mana consumption is. HPS for me for Penance is around 3700, flash/gheal/renew/binding I put at 2300. These numbers account for overheal of 30% to 40%. If these numbers are far off, I'd love to hear it. And if someone has HPS for PoM that'd be great :-)

If you keep Penance on CD with 0% haste (not even Enlightenment), you get a cycle of 6 seconds of 2300 HPS, 2 seconds fo 3700 HPS, resulting in a 21200 points healed over 8 seconds. Adding 10% haste puts you at a Penance cast time of 1.818, leaving 6.181 seconds for other spells. This would result in 23039 points healed over 8 seconds. This is 8.67% more, but not the 10% we were hoping to get.

Assuming Penance HPM of 14.5 and other spells having around 6.5 HPM (taking rapture into account; again if these are very off, I'd love to hear it), mana consumption without haste sits at 2633 over 8 seconds. This rises to 2916 over 8 seconds. That's 10.74% more. Again not the 10% we were hoping.


Conclusion:

In a worst case scenario, the side effect of haste not reducing the cooldown of Penance seems to be a small reduction of HPS of around 0.13% per haste%. It also seems to increase mana consumption by an additional 0.07% per haste%.

 

Ranc

Damn really sorry about that i tend to read most days I must have had some RL stuff and missed a day or 2 .
Im pleased to see my poor maths was only a few mp5 out on the holy MP5 90int bonus.
My adding the 300 stat procs into the base calcs for the trinkets worth do seem needed at least.

Morakks post was good ty but was mainly about the FSR and replen, int benefits in many other ways same as listed for the 90 stat static amount.
Also as its a random proc from a spell i wouldnt consider it to have a normal OFSR average either - if you assume 10% ofsr all the time as a fight average, then a proc caused by a spell cast (unless PoM renew tick) is starting the OFSR - coh being the worst as instant means 5 secs before you enter ofsr from the proc. IE unless you plan and watch these procs average ofsr rates do not apply if you do then maybe you can get more than 10% ofsr with good play and a little fight time luck, but not as easy to benefit from as fiend always will be, or if you have the time to ofsr a spirit proc why not hymn an int proc.

I cannot agree 300 spirit proc is 20 mp5 more than int, if anything its gonna be less mp5 than Int in the real world.

I would love to see something put back into spirit for us, but we already gain more than virtually everyone else from it so i dont think we are even on bliz make spirit a more viable stat list (cept deep disc)....Now an Int nerf that could happen.

 

the_nell_87

Well, you do make some good points. 90 int passively is clearly better than 90 spirit, since the bigger mana pool benefits you permanently.

But with an int proc; Hymn and Fiend would work better if triggered then. And we would gain more mana from replenishment (or JoW) while an int proc is up. But really, apart from a negligible amount of crit, all an int proc gives us is mana. And really, apart from those above-mentioned abilities, a 15 second proc increasing your max mana pool isn't exactly great. It's a very situational proc. Sure, if you need mana, and can time certain abilities around it, it would give much better mana efficiency than a spirit proc. But on a fight with no mana problems, it's a pretty rubbish proc.

On the other hand, a spirit proc will give you spellpower (which is good when chaincasting, and you don't get out of the 5SR at all) and also gives you mana regen (especially if you time IF around the proc). The spirit proc is the best of both worlds, since it'll increase both your spellpower AND your regen, and it'll be more useful across different fights.

The main annoyance with the trinket, as far as I'm concerned, is that you have little control over the stat which procs. In my current gear, unbuffed, Int is sitting about 100 points ahead of spirit (even more if i got the +90 int version of this trinket, which I would). But I'm still going after upgrades, so I have no idea which would be my naturally higher stat with 'best in slot' gear, and fully raid-buffed. I have the feeling that it would still be intellect, but I know the numbers would be similar. And I think it would really gimp me too much if I was to gem, enchant, elixir and food buff for spirit, simply to get this proc.

The design of the proc on this trinket works great for most other classes and specs. Tanks with shields, ret pallies and DKs will get +str with a +str proc with few issues; hunters, rogues, enhance shammies and feral druids get +agi with an +agi proc with few issues, and pally healers and shaman casters get +int with a +int proc with few issues. But for those of us who use spirit pretty much equally with intellect, it's not as easy for us to choose which stat will proc. It'll basically require certain gear sets or gems, enchants, etc, just to get the trinket to proc in the right way. And I don't think it's worth all that hassle.

 

Crow

Distomos,

The fact, that static +int is better than static +spirit in terms of regen is obvious for anyone who read (and understood) OP. However what was new to me here (and as far as I recall - new to this thread) is that +300 int proc is far better than +300 spirit proc. I recall Constantius recommending some (many) pages ago, to get +90 int but to keep spirit higher. It turns out, that all it takes is a single shadowfiend during a proc for int proc to outweight spirit proc by far.

The first post quoted only covers the static bonus. Morakk compares the static regen you gain from procs and summaries with "there are things you can do (...) (shadowfiend, cheat the 5sr) to help one more or the other." What I believe to be new to this thread are following observations:
* The effect of shadowfiend usage during int proc has a great weight in proc comparison
* You virtually can't get enough OO5Sr time for spirit proc to even compare to int proc
* While you claim that +300 spirit vs +300 int is a preference thing it turns out that +300 int gives you almost 1800 more mana than +300 spirit over a 5 minute fight (30 mp5), and double that amount (which is over 40 mp5 for a 7 minute fight) if you can use fiend two times.

While those observations might have been clear to some readers at first glance, I doubt they were to all.

 

Morakk

About my post on Greatness.

If you want to see which is better, you really, really need to do the math yourself. (Or get help with it, I'm sure any number of people would help you out here.) When I posted, it was mostly because I observed that people seemed to be assuming that if 1 int > 1 spirit, then 300 int > 300 spirit, or that maybe Constantius thought the opposite when he said to go static int/spirit proc originally.

The point is that spirit based mana regen is not linear in intellect, and it's not immediately obvious whether the diminishing returns on intellect let spirit catch up, if you have to take 300 of one or the other. It turns out though, that in most reasonable cases that intellect should be better.

I run very low on int and spirit, so for me the replenishment component outweighs anything else, even if I never manage to time it with shadowfiend.

Constantius is running considerably more spirit based regen than I, due to wearing all slots with spirit (I have several crit + haste slots), socketing choices, wearing a spirit trinket, and having slightly better gear (~4 more int/spirit per slot because he has 226/213 loot and I still have some 200). For him it will be somewhat closer, in terms of the regen you just get. But intellect probably still is worth a little more regen, but perhaps not enough that he wouldn't choose spirit since he prefers the spell power over the crit.

This is almost certainly the most regen on a trinket in game whichever proc you end up with. Whether it's worth the money, or using over a mixed trinket like soul of the dead, isn't a question that everyone will have the same answer to.


On the topic of the proc being unpredictable.

It's a 35% proc on spell cast. You almost always have it every 45-50 seconds, so while you can't pinpoint precisely when it will happen, it's not too hard to have a feel for when the next proc will be and plan accordingly. The ICD mechanic is certainly better than the 2% proc on Blue Dragon, as you can essentially guarantee that you'll get (fight length in seconds)/50 procs per fight. Once I went through a few fights with it, I sort of had a timer in the back of my head for it, and could feel the proc upcoming.

 

Havoc12

The higher int gets the greater the value of spirit.

The idea of not being able to get ooFSR time anymore is something that you cannot argue in one line. Post the fights where you think you can't get ooFSR time and why. 80% ooFSR is a very common assumption when calculating regen times and its considered conventional wisdom.

10% ooFSR time is basically 6 seconds of ooFSR time per minute.

Hymn of hope is worth 0.13% of maximum mana per 5 seconds. It increases the mp5 value of int by 0.022mp5 and has a minimal impact in the int vs spi discussion. If you are holy you must have spirit, you want to have 3:2 spirit at 1500 (raid buffed) int and 1:1 spirit at 2000int (raid buffed).

If you have ooFSR time and you break it to use shadowfiend, you have committed a crime against priesthood. Shadowfiend returns the same amount of mana at all times, so you can use it right after a cast. Hymn of hope does not activate the FSR.

1% Critical is not equal to 0.5% more healing per point, the reason is that criticals have a naturally higher overheal and their value is reduced much faster with overheal than the value of normal heals. That means using 0.5% per point grossly overstimates the value of crit for throughput. For a holy priest the main value of 1% crit is increased IHC procs and surge of light if you want it.

Int procs are worthless for priests, for a very simple reason. Getting an int proc mid fight does not give any mana at all. Any int gains only increase your mana pool. That increase has to be filled in by resting or regenerating. Proc spirit is a lot more valuable to a priest than proc int.

 

Morakk

This is not really valid on fights that don't permit freely shadowfiending at any time, hence the half a page of discussion on when to use him on sartharion + drakes in the other thread.

 

Isin

This doesn't even make any sense. Even if you are disregarding replenishment, which is huge, even the "spirit based" mana regen formula factors intellect in.

Regardless of whether or not you think the spirit or int proc is better, you can't just say things that are blatantly untrue.

 

bbartlog

So many errors in one post it's hard to know where to start.

First of all, 80% iFSR was a reasonable assumption in TBC. It matches what I saw in some fights (like heroic BM). But looking closely at the changes in WoTLK suggests that the percentage is different now and that priests will spend more time iFSR, like 90%. The reasoning is fairly straightforward: in an intensive fight, the percentage is going to be closely tied to how many spells you can cast in five minutes before you go OOM, and that number has gone up. In the one WWS I actually analyzed in depth (Sapphiron) I saw iFSR of 92%.

Second of all, proposing that someone should aim for '3:2 spirit at 1500 int' either reflects a gross ignorance of current gear levels or is purely hypothetical. This would be 2250 spirit, 1500 int, and no you can't reach those numbers with current gear (nor the 2000/2000 that you suggest for 2000 int).

Breaking ooFSR time to use shadowfiend would be situational. Calling it a crime against priesthood is silly. If I know I'm about to have to start casting a flurry of heals in 3 seconds anyway and my mana is desperately low, casting shadowfiend as the first spell seems like a no-brainer (int proc or no). In any case, in the context of this thread the main point is that casting shadowfiend during a +300 int proc will get you quite a lot of extra mana. Assuming this does boost the returns, you get 1800 extra mana... which is more than you will lose by sacrificing the oFSR time.

As for int procs 'giving no mana at all', even without Replenishment, Shadowfiend, and Hymn of Hope, the int affects the passive regen rate about half as much as spirit does.

 

Kaacee

I know there are a lot of variables involved, but how accurate are the WoWHead Weight Scales for Disc and Holy?

Discipline

Spell Power: 100
Crit: 95
Int: 59
Haste: 47
Spirit: 36
Mana Regen: 36

Holy

Spell Power: 100
Mana Regen 93
Haste: 89
Int: 88
Spirit: 85
Crit: 63

Items - World of Warcraft

 

◊ Cadfael

And that was holy spec. Discipline priests's main mana returns are Replenishment and Rapture. And both are directly inflluenced by max mana. I actually just went back over my log from Monday's Sarth+3 and found a 597 mana replenishment return tick. This at 2.5% max mana ceiling means that I most likely had 23'880 maximum mana. With more int the capping ceiling of rapture would have been higher and I would have gotten more mana. These effects apply immediately. Int proc is good for Disc spec !

 

Isin

I'm not sure I am reading this right, but are they saying that 1 spellpower is > than 1 Intellect or 1 Mp5?

If so, then this does not match my personal stat weighting preferences, no. Are these weights supposed to be relative to their item budget? If so, that might make more sense...

 

Kaacee

I am not sure I totally understand the process, so I am quoting this from the source.

I am not sure if the Mana Regen value is MP5, or if it consolidates all the stats that contribute to mana regen.

 

Morakk

It means mp5.

 

• constantius

As far as the proc from Darkmoon Card: Greatness goes, I'm sticking to my guns on Spirit being more useful. If you get an Intellect proc, and don't activate anything (which is likely-ish, since timing a shadowfiend on tough fights is not that easy), you get some mana back. You gain some crit. But if you get a spirit proc, you can either use IHC, SoL, Hymn of Hope, or Inner Focus to screw with the 5SR and get a full tick @ +345 spirit. If you get two, it's awesome.

Obviously this is for holy. I'm always going to advocate the OO5SR option, because that's how priests are built. Unless you're wearing some *really* wacky priest gear (like every Mp5 option available to us), your OO5SR regen should be at least 2x your I5SR. For me at the moment, it's almost 3x raid-buffed. Play with that, and make it work for you. My final gear build (without 4-piece T7) looks to be almost 1500 spirit raid-buffed, with 1150 intellect. That's over 1500 Mp5 OO5SR; almost 1600 actually.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

ildon

This is not true.

Source

I definitely expect something to change, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it to change before 4.0/next expansion. Remember during beta, mana regen was supposed to be "hard" again in 3.0, yet here we are in the introductory raid tier with almost unlimited mana and dropping down to 4-5 healers. And this is post-mana potion nerf, post-shadowpriest nerf, etc. Maybe it's because the content is so easy, or maybe it's because their attempts at making mana "matter" again failed.

Any short term changes are probably just going to be bandaids or temporary fixes to keep content challenging, but it's pretty clear a larger, more comprehensive change is in order.

 

• constantius

The largest context of that quote that you all keep referring to is dps classes, especially mages. For the first time in living memory, all healers are in the same boat: effective infinite mana if you manage your cooldowns right. On easy content. Even paladins can't sustain infinite mana on Sarth+3.10, which is the only real test of skill and gear in the game at the moment. I highly, highly doubt they're going to screw with the mechanic until they see us in Ulduar, against real content, and see just how much mana we sustain.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

Malodorous

I read this forum a lot and come here for advice. My question is why is the [The Sanctum's Flowing Vestments] ranked over [Valorous Robe of Faith]. I noticed it in your best in slot list and even rawr tells me it's better. Ive read through all of this trying to do my research on haste. Ive noticed a lot of talk about it but no real answers. Is dropping this much spirit and even the MP5 worth it.

Healing for me lately has been a lot of raid healing, I know CoH will be getting nerfed so haste wont be effecting this as much. I don't use Gheal really anymore so my question is, what is haste good for. Spamming flash heals? I'm sitting at about 10% haste right now, maybe it will be more useful at a higher number? Is 25% haste worth getting to?

 

bbartlog

Short answer, those weights are not very good at all. Spellpower worth 50% more than Int, point for point, for a Disc priest? No. Crit worth almost as much as Spirit for a holy priest? Again, no. And mp5 is usually considered to be worth more, point for point, than other stats; it only ends up not being favored in actual gearing because it is so expensive in Blizzard's itemization scheme.

The only context in which those gear weights make any sense to me is if someone figures they're past the point of having mana problems of any kind and just want to improve their throughput. In that case the weights are closer to good though I would still disagree with some of them.

 

Ranc

I appreciate the time and post and pointers you have given me

Id agree you can hit 10% oofsr easy any fight, infact with phases etc 80% is not a big deal either. With 25 man regen the way it is, there isnt many fights that you NEED to get yourself much extra planned oofsr is more my point. CoH+6 and its worse.

If hymn of hope is really only worth 0.13% of my max mana per 5 secs then thats the worst tooltip ever, i wanted 10% like it said 10% when i wanted it in one lump with the bonus 300 int proc included seemed good oh well. nice to know it doesnt activate fsr.

Spirit gives SP and it is better than crit, but crit on auto target CoH isnt such a certain overheal, crit on FH and GH is certainly going to have a fair overheal %but then again FH/GH without downranking is a fair chance of some overheal anyway.

Spirit gives SP and spirit gives great OFSR, but SP is upping output while entering OFSR is downing output. Int doesnt match regen (when you can ofsr spirit) or the crit match the SP from spirit, but INT gives me both at the same time. Molten core days that spirit model of one or the other was unbeatable for rotations, wotlk and int's both together is just as viable.


'Int procs are worthless for priests, for a very simple reason. Getting an int proc mid fight does not give any mana at all'.
Nope, A mid fight proc is exactly why I want it to be INT for regen and crit (IHC) without stopping to try for oofsr

my calcs for the 300 int proc element were -
crit on the base stat (+0.45% averaged proc - assume 1pm proc)
replenishment (+14.06 mp5 ave proc)
mana pool (nil proc) <.......
from 1 fiend (fiend after proc for approx 20 mp5)
meditation (+14.55 mp5 proc)
holy IHC (+8.55 mp5 proc)
+mana tide which i forgot about on my initial post

If theres a need to work the FSR again in future due to regen or fight changes, I'll restack spirit to a higher level but until that time Im going try for 2.5-2 int/spirit ratio with half a mind on gearing for dual specs

TY Morakk nice info on the trinket. I suppose the best thing about the trinket is it gives you what you weight most and the real choice is made when you gear. Id say its a slightly better trinket for you if you value Int more, still nice either way but if you favour Int this is probably your best trinket in game, if like constantius you have more spirit then you'd have to think about a pure SP trinket replacement by now

 

Morakk

Out of curiosity with what consumables is that?
[Kreeg's Stout Beatdown]? >.>

 

gakutomagnum

Are you keeping at least two pieces?

 

• constantius

Yes, keeping 2 pieces (atm, helm & gloves, simply because I have shoulders, am 3rd or 4th in line for helm, and next in line for legs. Just a drop% choice).

Consumables:
- 40 stam/40 spirit food (just for sake of argument; I normally use 40 stam/40 crit)
- Mp5 flask
- Spirit scroll
- regular raid buffs
- Majestic Dragon Figurine x10

It's not that hard. Remember how much BoK and SoR scale as you start getting more and more spirit.

Say you have 1000 unbuffed, without your trinket up. That's actually 952 spirit before SoR applies.

952 + 54 (Imp GotW) + 64 (Scroll) + 40 (food) + 180 (trinket) = 1290
1290 * 1.10 * 1.05 = 1490 spirit.

So if you have 1009 character-sheet unbuffed spirit, you have 1500 raid-buffed, assuming what I did above. Of course, if you have Divine Spirit or a nice buffbot friend with Mistletoe, you can get even higher. It'd be hard to do it without the Figurine, I admit, but still very doable. I have 981 at the moment and I'm missing legs/helm/haste offhand/bracers/belt, all of which are small spirit upgrades. I also haven't put spirit on my bracers, which would instantly get me to the "magic mark".

[e] To the above asking about T7 vs Sanctum: think about it. You lose 20 spirit and 20 Mp5, but gain 66 haste. That's a worthwhile tradeoff for any priest, no matter what spec. The 20Mp5 costs so many ilvl points that removing it gives a ton of flexibility for good (better?) stats.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein