It's not going to be so straightforward... I think there are going to be a few different scales for pawn.

As it's often necessary to convince tanks, here's a counterargument that I got several times and that could probably still be made post 3.0 (though not for 25-mans, where a hunter will always be available):

Unfortunately many tanks run with a rather low amount of hit rating, especially feral druids. This may not be ideal, but many do (and perhaps some itemization issues are a good reason for this, too). In that case, the 3 auto-attack swings may not be a given.

In 10-mans without a hunter, the point as such is valid, but my rationale so far has been that shielding buys the tank more time to build threat preventing post-pull healing aggro than he really loses by receiving a bit less damage.

My main is a holy priest but I have a feral druid as alt and I tanked with him heroics, kara, magy, a bit of ssc/tk...
You always go in with shapeshift + enrage, thats enough rage for 2 hits mangle + maul and after u get the first hit u still get enogh rage to hit another 2 times (even with the shield). So you need s**t load of bad luck to miss all 4 attacks..
It never happened to me and I tanked more than 6-7 months the most I missed 2 times in a row but that was not enough for the dps to overaggro.

EDIT: Of course we are not talking here about mages that start nuking in the second u make the pull (PoM pyro and stuff like that :P)

I am not sure about it, but that is what data suggest. Following are all the Greater Heals from wow web stats link that have not the proceeds of the MH exalted ring in it:
5596
5491
5351
5369
5445
5433
5243
5617
5228
5407
5339
5450
5646
5279
5398
5238
5398
5525
5347
5370
5379
5258
5235
5404
5322
5334
5223
5519
5280
5358
5297
5452
5509
5472
5483
5603
5255
5233
5280
5405
5429
5447
5248
5279
5631
5435
5237
5393
5591
5354
5518
5278
5558
5348
5422
5499
5348
5233
5315
5288

Arithmetic average of this values = 5389. If average value of unimproved GH is 2609 and the spell power of the gear was 1317 then the computed value of the heal should be for a holy tree with 2 points in Empowered Healing(16%), 5 points in Spiritual Healing(10%) and healing value of spell power having a coeficient 1.85:
healing = (2609 + 1317*3/3.5 * 1.16*1.85)*1.1 = 5535 using method with haste not influencing the result
healing = (2609 + 1317*2.83/3.5 * 1.16*1.85)*1.1 = 5384 using method with haste included into empowered healing modifier.

If there is a mistake in my formulas I would be glad if you point it out.
The values for casting naked fit ok with data as well.

Penance still has the facing requirement in 3.0.3.

Greater Heal Rank 7
32% of base mana 40 yd range
3 sec cast
A slow casting spell that heals a single target for 2396 to 2784.

(2396+2784)/2= 2590

Not 2609 assuming wowhead is correct.

Also its still random numbers, so it is possible the numbers are just off due to the sample set.
Your average is between the ranges if we assume the normal 3/3.5

5300
5727

But some of your heals fall below this. If we assume the 2.83/3.5 the min should be 5190 which your numbers fit better with....


I guess I will look at it a bit more when I have time, I can do it with and with out haste etc to get a better feel for it.

EDIT: Wowhead is different to the spell book, but the spell book has hasted cast times and talented mana values as well

EDIT 2: The way you have used empowered healing looks off as well?

(2609 + 1317*3/3.5 * 1.16*1.85)*1.1

It should be (2609 + 1317 * (3/3.5 + 0.16) * 1.85) * 1.1

I also thougth healing was 1.88 x spell power.

I am going to give up posting until i have a real look at it

The correct formula for calculating the value of a gheal is



Using your numbers you expect your gheal to heal on average for (2609+1317*(3/3.5*1.88+0.16) )*1.1 = 5436

The difference between your numerical average and this value is less than 1%. I can run a stat test on it, if you want, but I do not expect the difference to be statistically significant. Using 2.83 as the value you get 5303, which is just as close to the expected number.

If the co-efficient is 1.85 then the value without including haste is 5398, and with haste included its 5268.

Your data makes it appear as though that the correct co-efficient is indeed 1.85. You can make absoludely no conclusions concerning the effect of haste whatsoever.

Now that all that is out of hte way.

1) The way you have done your experiment is absoludely unacceptable. You cannot confidently identify differences of 1-2% with your methodology, especially without statistical analysis. Any conclusions made are not on a firm basis. The correct way to determine the coversion of spellpower to healing is to use spells whose base is either a single fixed number (e.g. HoTs) or does not vary appreciably, then vary the amount of spellpower that you have. Casting a heal whose base value varies by something like 10% and tring to detect 1% differences is just unacceptable really. Until you can do the experiment properly there is no reason to deviate from 1.88.

2) Getting your formulas right before you begin saves you a lot of wasted effort

3) I can assure you that haste has absoludely no affect on spellscaling whatsoever. This is very very simple to determine, as there are plenty of high haste procs and abilities going around. You will notice no drop in healing values when you get heroism, IHC or power infusion. Also there are priests running around in full sunwell gear with a great deal of haste and no one has noticed any reduction in the amount of healing from gheal/fheal. That reduction would be very noticeable.

I was not trying to prove, that haste influences bonus coefficient. I have tried to find a reson for discrepancy between observed data and calculated ones.

But I was indeed mislead by the wording of Empowered Healing tooltip, stating that heals gain another x% of the bonus healing effects. Correct wording should be according Havoc's formula another x% of the bonus spell power. (That was the reason for my 3/3.5*1.16*1.85 instead of 3/3.5*1.85+0.16)

Thank you for the correction.

Really? I've yet to experience this. Granted, levelling grants you more spirit, which, with Spiritual Healing, would bolster the spell's power, but I've seen absolutely no reason to believe that simply levelling up makes spells more powerful. Do you have proof that this is the case?

Like I said, it's very small. I remember noticing it on my mage, where Fireball gained 1 damage every level, or something similar. It certainly applies to Demoralising Roar for Druids, which gains 1 AP reduction per level up to the next rank (which is why people were confused as to the Druid one being 3 AP lower than the Warrior one, while the Druid one is trainable at 77 and the Warrior one is trainable at 80, or something like that).

So far I haven't seen 4 misses in a row, but I have seen bosses look at me very shortly after pull with our druid tank tanking without being misdirected. In these cases, the WWS showed 3 misses in sequence, or with one white hit in between. I have seen this specifically with Nalorakk and Halazzi in Zul'Aman, both of which - can - hit very hard, requiring early and heavy healing.

To get back to the point: though this is a valid point that can be made (and is made by some tanks), preshielding is still better than not doing it. Maybe it's possible to construct a case where preshielding actually hurts, but I'm positively sure this will really be a rare case and will have to involve tanks with low amounts of hit and expertise.

Shielding tanks should not create any rage problems in 3.0. I have healed heroics where incoming damage was so low I healed almost exclusively with shield, and still the dps were not tearing aggro off the tank, this was without Replenish or Blessing of Sanctuary, on small and large pulls. From everything I've seen between live and beta, threat is just not a thing to worry about right now.

Your totals looked a lot lower than the ones I had been using, which I got from adding up values from items actually found so far on the beta, so I took a look over the approximations you had given here to find one with an easy comparison. Compare to Signet of Hopeful Light from the wowhead Wrath site (no item link because they go to the wowhead main site where the item does not exist). The signet has:

I reordered the stats to show the comparison, but haste rating, int and spirit have the same item point cost, so the comparison works. Your approximation of items stats does not line up with actual items that have dropped, which have consistently higher stats. I don't think WoWWiki's formula is really that reliable. The totals you listed are closer to the totals for blue level 200 items than purple ones.

I'm sure most of you have heard that Blizzard is considering a 6 second CD to CoH (if not, source).

I don't have experience raiding at 80 in Beta, and was wondering what some of your opinions were on this matter. Do we have the tools to deal with the raid damage coming in without spamming CoH? I imagine Chain Heal will be able to fill in most of the gap left, and for the rest we'd be able to Renew/Flash Heal/PoM/PW:S, but like I said I'm not aware of how the fights at 80 work.

I agree with putting a cooldown on both CoH and WG, 6 seconds is however very very hefty and will make stacking an issue. 3-4 seconds is more realistic or remove the smart targetting and keep it off cd.

In my opinion, it doesn't make much sense discussing CoH cooldown in respect to beta content a 80, because Blizzard doesn't plan to change CoH and Wild Growth in isolation.

If you watch the discussion (summary of blue answers here: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Examination on CoH's overuse), it becomes clear that an introduction of a cooldown would also very probably be accompanied by a reduction of raid damage and an increase in single target damage, including changing encounters and modifying tank equipment.

The plan clearly seems to be to prevent CoH and Wild Growth spam while still enabling holy priest and druids to perform a full raid healing role.

Dukes is absolutely right. Every spell you learn, whether damage or healing, increases very slightly as you level, before you get the next rank.

So, for example, GH:7, learned at 68, and having a base value as indicated by WoWhead, actually heals for ~ 15 more at level 70, because you continue to gain 'power' in it as you level. Not much, clearly, but some. You can see this exhibited in the Beta thread where a couple of times I corrected people's base healing amounts with actual in-game level-80 amounts which were not the same.

In regards to the debate between SOL and Lolwell/HP. Do either of you have any hard numbers yet or is it all still specualtion? I can easily see the benfits to both, but pure specuation and assuming 20 procs over a 200 sec fight is not a very convincing argument. Especially considering KJ is far more than 200 secs even post nerf. I havent timed it but I'd estimate its about double that. Using that fight as an example though I can see either being incredibly useful. Being able to toss a flash on the move could easily save lives. That being said tossing down a lightwell under the bubble right as everyone collapses could help mitigate that one jerk spreading fire and help healing up the damage taken from the aoe. Honeslty I think it comes down to the proc rate. Sure there will be times it is wasted, BUT the one time it saves your own life or someone elses it makes up for the 5 previous uses that were over healing/missed. The CD on Lightwell still only makes it situationally useful IMO. 24 free flash heals throughout KJ is potentially saving your raid. Dropping the lightwell will buy you a little oo5sr, but I think I've Oomed on that fight once and it was terrible luck with the mana burn and getting no regen breaths from the dragons.

In our particular case we'll probly have one of us spec'd each way. With me paying attn to Ora and other officer responsibilities mid fight I'll probly take the Lightwell/HP approach as its more "fire and forget" if you will and let Ikasha deal with micro managing procs. Regardless as soon as someones able to get some comparative wws parses I'd be interested in seeing them. And as others have said thanks Nidiba for the awesome job.

To be honest, I'm not sure exactly sure what hard data you're looking for that would convince you either way. SOL is tied to your crit rate. That means that its effectiveness is tied not only to the particulars of your spec, but also to the type of fight you are in and the types of spells you cast. Right now, I almost always get a SOL proc whenever I cast COH, whereas when I'm chain casting gheal, its a less frequent occurrence. Further, the number of talent points you have at 80 makes it very easy to pick up both lightwell and SOL without sacrificing too much. The tradeoff is more throughput on your base spells, for situational tools that increase your mana efficiency and/or allow you to do multiple things at once. Even if you could model it, it seems to me to come down to a personal choice and playstyle issue.

I need an explanation on this please. Tooltip says that chance for getting SoL is based on crit chance of FH, GH and BH.

Surge of Light can proc off any spell crit, damage or healing. It doesn't matter what spell you're using, as long as it can crit.

It's Holy Concentration that's limited to FH/GH/BH.