In my opinion it's MUST BE TALENTS with that instlantly proc heal from renew and chance to crit -> Holy Concentration it would beat flash heal as hell in numbers
I think the changes in rapture bring up some interesting possibilities:
The new rapture allows you to get a maximum of 12.5% of total mana back every minute. Which if you have 20K would be 2500.
In addition to that you could "conceivably" cast a PW:S on yourself... and if you were taking (or decided to take) dmg necessary to pop the bubble you would get the additional 2% mana back.... which would in turn give you 22.5% mana back every minute. Which would be 4500 mana back per minute with a negligible cost.
Correct me if I'm wrong... but it never says that the 2% return could not be returned to you.
Additionally with the people who are speccing their new talents.... make sure you are looking at both of your specs.
I think the changes in rapture bring up some interesting possibilities:
The new rapture allows you to get a maximum of 12.5% of total mana back every minute. Which if you have 20K would be 2500.
In addition to that you could "conceivably" cast a PW:S on yourself... and if you were taking (or decided to take) dmg necessary to pop the bubble you would get the additional 2% mana back.... which would in turn give you 22.5% mana back every minute. Which would be 4500 mana back per minute with a negligible cost.
Correct me if I'm wrong... but it never says that the 2% return could not be returned to you.
Additionally with the people who are speccing their new talents.... make sure you are looking at both of your specs.
It does not indicate the 2% mana return from receiving the shield would not be applicable to yourself, however throwing a shield on yourself with the sole purpose of gaining 2% mana back seems rather redundant. The cost of PW:S would most likely make doing this a wash IE waste of a GCD. Even if you do decide to take unneeded damage to break the shield its pointless because of the 12 second cool down on the mana return effect. All you need to do is Shield somebody with aggro and you can guarantee it will break.
I think the changes in rapture bring up some interesting possibilities:
The new rapture allows you to get a maximum of 12.5% of total mana back every minute. Which if you have 20K would be 2500.
In addition to that you could "conceivably" cast a PW:S on yourself... and if you were taking (or decided to take) dmg necessary to pop the bubble you would get the additional 2% mana back.... which would in turn give you 22.5% mana back every minute. Which would be 4500 mana back per minute with a negligible cost.
Correct me if I'm wrong... but it never says that the 2% return could not be returned to you.
Additionally with the people who are speccing their new talents.... make sure you are looking at both of your specs.
This belongs in the Discipline healing thread, but I want to point out a few things. Due to weakend soul you could only cast 4 PWS on yourself per minute, so really it's more like 20.5% mana back every minute (best case scenario). The bigger problem is you say this has a negligible cost which is not true, each PWS will cost about 533 mana with the new talents. I will refer you to the math already posted in the discipline thread, but basically at around 24000 mana the new Rapture only makes PWS pay for itself, not provide some kind of mana boost.
Well its been confirmed and its 100% proc on crit plus it also includes renew!, thus the new regen formula for spirit regen for priests is
where k' is the new spirit regen constant, FSR is the time spent in FSR, C is crit rate and n is the number of HC procing casts per 8 seconds.
Total regen is now
As I suspected blizzard has nerfed priest regen by removing serendipity and converting IHC to regen that scales with spirit. The attempt was to boost the value of spirit, but reduce overall regen. Priests have taken a pretty large hit to regen, but at least we now have more incentive to get spirit.
Lets have a look and see what the new regen looks like with 95% FSR, 25% crit rate and n=3 at 1500 spirit/int
R = 657.6
The old regen assuming 80% FSR was 712.5. At 85% FSR it was 655.8 at 90% FSR it was 599.
The break even point if you had 80% FSR is now 4 casts per 8 seconds and 33% crit.
So our regen from spirit is basically the same or slightly worse since clearcasting was 5-15% FSR depending on the fight, but..... we lose clearcasting and serendipity. We are easily talking a drop of 200 mp5 here.
This is a massive nerf to priest regen,
=================================
Changes to PWS. I am really excited about them.
If you cast PWS on yourself and it gets used you gain back 2.5% of your max mana + you energise yourself with 2% mana. That 4.5% max mana, the best part is that you can now roll PWS. This can be massive in some fights. Lets talk saphiron. You know that the PWS is going to be used very quickly, by rolling PWS on the raid you can pretty much get 12-13 shields up per 15 seconds. That means you can potentially be getting back 32% of max mana every 15 seconds. This borders on OP.
The shield lasts for 30 seconds, so it really does have a good chance of being used up. Even in the simplest senario of two tanks you are looking at 5% max mana back every 15 seconds.
At 25k mana 2.5% is 625 mana, which means the PWS is free if used up. If used on yourself you will actually gain mana. More importantly have PWS on GCD, means a disc priest can maintain the 25% haste buff quite easily. Improved flash heal also means that the disc priest now does not really need greater heal at all.
The energising effects are also a good for utility.
These changes have pretty much made PWS a main heal for disc. My only concern is that disc priests may end up just spamming PWS a lot.
The changes are also nice for PvP, and they will help mana a lot, but they won't really do much for suvivability.
Now does anyone know if I should take "Improved renew" with "Empowered renew" Seems very similar?
Either you intend to use Renew frequently (in which case you should take both talents) or you don't (in which case you don't need either talent).
If you absolutely cannot take both in your build (for example in a 10-man build where perhaps you want to keep Healing Focus), I would shoot for Empowered Renew.
Reasoning:
The instant heal from Empowered Renew alone is worth as much as the whole effect from Improved Renew (15%). So both increase the total amount healed by 15%. In addition to that, it seems like the instant heal part can crit and thus trigger Holy Concentration. And on top of that, Empowered Renew makes Renew scale better with spellpower, so Empowered Renew is clearly worth much more than Improved Renew.
Originally Posted by Pewsey
Many of our snakes are 3m+ in size. They'll just take the lawnmower off you and beat the shit out of you with it to make you tender, then bite you and eat you.
As one of the few priests left who liked to heal heavy tank damage with stop casted Gheals the serendipity nerf will hit my playstyle quite hard.
I interpret the changes that priests will be moved more to the holy - raid healer and disc - tank healer side giving us two more specialised trees.
The raid healing abilities with the CoH buff, the PoH buff and the Renew buff make holy much stronger raid healers, the serendipity nerf is bad news for holy tank healing.
Havoc, your formula clearly assumes that the boosted regen from Holy Concentration is only functioning on spirit regen. Can you confirm from the PTR that Mana/5 regen from gear food and blessings is not included in this effect.
As the talent is written there are 2 equally valid interpretations. Yours and the assumption that they are simply taking the total regen from all sources as displayed on your paper doll and multiplying it by 1.5. This is very important as fully raid buffed your mana/5 regen is probably somewhere in the vicinity of 150 from blessings, food, elixirs and gear. Thus depending on which interpretation is correct you would have a difference of 75 mana/5 extra regen.
They attacked mana efficiance of the holy priests pretty hard. Perhaps it is better to just skip the whole Holy Concentration part of the tree and go deeper in disc for Mental Agility. Intuitively the mana return from it seems extremely underwhelming.
The changes with Empowered Renew should make it a more reliable raid/tank healing tool compared to now. Still might want to have Chain Heal for most of the raid healing.
As one of the few priests left who liked to heal heavy tank damage with stop casted Gheals the serendipity nerf will hit my playstyle quite hard.
I interpret the changes that priests will be moved more to the holy - raid healer and disc - tank healer side giving us two more specialised trees.
The raid healing abilities with the CoH buff, the PoH buff and the Renew buff make holy much stronger raid healers, the serendipity nerf is bad news for holy tank healing.
My math could be off, but I'm showing Serendipity as a buff to HPS if you're willing to switch from straight GH spam to a FHx3->GH rotation.
Assumptions: 2500 spellpower, 20% haste, 20% crit raid buffed ((1 + (0.5 * .2)) = 1.1 crit modifier)
Average GH = 4250, coefficient with 3/3 Empowered Healing = 1.8135
Average FH = 2040, coefficient with 3/3 Empowered Healing = 0.9068
I'm less worried about throughput of Gheal spam but more about sustainability without the mana regeneration from serendipity, without the mana regeneration from HC procs + Inner Focus breaks and (assumption on my part) longer fights in ulduar.
3x Fheal + Gheal + renew will be what i'll test first for holy tank healing, since the fheals should help in keeping up the new mana regeneration from HC.
Any statistical data between Healing Prayers and Surge of Light? Both gain benefit from 3.1 so it'll be interesting to see which is more useful. Holy is likely to still be better suited for raid healing rather than tank healing. I'm not sure the investment of the two points in SoL will out value that of HP given the mechanic change to Prayer of Healing.
Win! And surprised to find this patchnote is not so latest.
(...)
Meditation: Wwap position with improved PW:S. (ps: I'm not sure what's it mean yet)
(...)
Possibly they want to simply swap position of Meditation with imp PW:S in the skill tree. I bet people who respeced many times would often automatically click imp:pws when they intended to take medi.
With the change to OO5SR, will Inner Focus be as neccessary? Without the need to fight to get OO5SR as much, I figure I can spend that point elsewhere. I also took points out of SoL, and used them to buff PoH some more. But yeah, my main point and question is, do we think Inner Focus is still worth a talent point?
With the change to OO5SR, will Inner Focus be as neccessary? Without the need to fight to get OO5SR as much, I figure I can spend that point elsewhere. I also took points out of SoL, and used them to buff PoH some more. But yeah, my main point and question is, do we think Inner Focus is still worth a talent point?
I think you just linked the same spec as the one you quoted.
Even if we're not abusing OO5SR with Inner Focus anymore, a free PoH every 3 minutes is at least worth something. I think we're going to come to a point where you get to choose between Inner Focus, Desperate Prayer, and Lightwell. The Holy tree seems to be at a point where there's a small handful of points that you can adjust as you wish - all the talents involved are good, you just simply can't get everything. Is that a bad thing? Of course not. If we didn't have to make choices in talent trees, why have them in the first place? I do think these changes are going to lead to even more diversification in talent builds within the 14/57 (or 13/58) framework, though.
Any statistical data between Healing Prayers and Surge of Light? Both gain benefit from 3.1 so it'll be interesting to see which is more useful. Holy is likely to still be better suited for raid healing rather than tank healing. I'm not sure the investment of the two points in SoL will out value that of HP given the mechanic change to Prayer of Healing.
I personally am currently not specced for Healing Prayers, since Prayer of Mending doesn't feel to be a massive drain on my mana and I don't use PoH without Inner Focus that often. On the other hand I find Surge of Light to have its uses, especially when somebody needs a quick heal on the run, Vortex healing (CoH proccing SoL etc.), so it feels fairly useful.
To me it feels like 3.1 will make Healing Prayers a must have, since 20% reduced PoH cost when it actually sees a strongly increased amount of uses is pretty massive for only two talent points.
For me the talents where I'll have to see how many points I have to put in them:
-Spiritual Guidance. Wonderful talent but getting some competition now from for example Blessed Resilience.
-Blessed Resilience; for PvE the 'primary' component is still fairly useless, but the 1% healing per point is interested, as raised by Ellyh above. Needs some computations.
-Test of Faith. I personally like the more guaranteed bonus of just flat extra healing (the less RNG the better while healing IMO) Still a question though whether it is more desirable than overall healing bonusses. It can be seen in both ways I guess; on the one hand you don't want people to drop down below 50% normally, but there's plenty of times it unavoidably happens anyways. Depends in value on the amount of times we get low health from AoE (think Vortex) and need to be healed soon I guess.
-Surge of Light. Pretty useful, but with 57 points available I feel it's one of the talents on the bubble due to having to make choices.
Overall for now I'm leaning towards Test of Faith and Spiritual Guidance, but curious about the upcoming maths.
One thing I am also curious about it the working of the Empowered Renew talent. As an individual amount to be spread out over the ticks, 15% of our total spellpower isn't that incredibly impressive on its own, even when adapted by several talents. Empowered Renew will be fairly powerful anyways in that case, due to the initial heal. If it ends up being 15% of spellpower per tick however, that obviously makes it a rather powerful talent, and will boost the tick values of Renew a lot closer to Rejuvenation. Rather curious about that one, just like the actual effect of Holy Concentration as I find neither talent overly clear. Still waiting for my characters to be copied though sadly, so if someone gets there and could check, it will be most appreciated
Overall based on current impressions (with several things still unclear) I like the idea of the changes overall. Moving from mana returned on overhealing and haste/clearcasting from a double RNG to a situation where we trigger the haste by spellchoice and get mana regen from crits is a step in the right direction in my view. (even if the Holy Concentration numbers are still unclear atm) Combined with the changes to our raid healing spells, I think we will be moving to a healstyle with less emphasis on procwatching, which I find a good thing. (Even if cheating the 5SR was fun to do)
Also still curious about the future of Hymn of Hope; I just can't see any reason for its removal, aside from it being scheduled for replacement. It was a situationally useful spell which was sadly rather underpowered, grounds on which Blizz normally doesn't remove spells. Given the indication of them working on it, my guess would be Hymn of Hope being replaced with something new while Divine Hymn gets reworked, both of these coming in a future PTR build.
Some new glyphs Ive found, not sure if posted yet, didn't see a Greater Heal glyph =(
* Glyph of Guardian Spirit - If you Guardian Spirit lasts its entire duration without being triggered, your Guardian Spirit cooldown is reset to 60 sec.
* Glyph of Penance - Reduces the cooldown of Penance by 2 sec.
* Glyph of Pain Suppression - Allows Pain Suppression to be cast while stunned.
* Glyph of Dispersion - Your Dispersion ability now also clears movement impairing effects and makes you immune to them for its duration.
* Glyph of Mind Sear - Increases the radius of effect on Mind Sear by 5 yards.
Some new glyphs Ive found, not sure if posted yet, didn't see a Greater Heal glyph =(
* Glyph of Guardian Spirit - If you Guardian Spirit lasts its entire duration without being triggered, your Guardian Spirit cooldown is reset to 60 sec.
* Glyph of Penance - Reduces the cooldown of Penance by 2 sec.
* Glyph of Pain Suppression - Allows Pain Suppression to be cast while stunned.
GS glyph is nearly worthless, Penance glyph is amazing, and PS is obviously a very good PvP glyph (and a nice direct middle finger to rogues). Holy definitely needs another viable glyph still. At least the glyphs for Renew and PoH will have some usefulness now.
e: Now that you edited the Dispersion glyph in - I wonder if all classes get glyphs for their 51-pointers?
I personally am currently not specced for Healing Prayers, since Prayer of Mending doesn't feel to be a massive drain on my mana and I don't use PoH without Inner Focus that often. On the other hand I find Surge of Light to have its uses, especially when somebody needs a quick heal on the run, Vortex healing (CoH proccing SoL etc.), so it feels fairly useful.
To me it feels like 3.1 will make Healing Prayers a must have, since 20% reduced PoH cost when it actually sees a strongly increased amount of uses is pretty massive for only two talent points.
For me the talents where I'll have to see how many points I have to put in them:
-Spiritual Guidance. Wonderful talent but getting some competition now from for example Blessed Resilience.
-Blessed Resilience; for PvE the 'primary' component is still fairly useless, but the 1% healing per point is interested, as raised by Ellyh above. Needs some computations.
-Test of Faith. I personally like the more guaranteed bonus of just flat extra healing (the less RNG the better while healing IMO) Still a question though whether it is more desirable than overall healing bonusses. It can be seen in both ways I guess; on the one hand you don't want people to drop down below 50% normally, but there's plenty of times it unavoidably happens anyways. Depends in value on the amount of times we get low health from AoE (think Vortex) and need to be healed soon I guess.
-Surge of Light. Pretty useful, but with 57 points available I feel it's one of the talents on the bubble due to having to make choices.
Overall for now I'm leaning towards Test of Faith and Spiritual Guidance, but curious about the upcoming maths.
One thing I am also curious about it the working of the Empowered Renew talent. As an individual amount to be spread out over the ticks, 15% of our total spellpower isn't that incredibly impressive on its own, even when adapted by several talents. Empowered Renew will be fairly powerful anyways in that case, due to the initial heal. If it ends up being 15% of spellpower per tick however, that obviously makes it a rather powerful talent, and will boost the tick values of Renew a lot closer to Rejuvenation. Rather curious about that one, just like the actual effect of Holy Concentration as I find neither talent overly clear. Still waiting for my characters to be copied though sadly, so if someone gets there and could check, it will be most appreciated
Overall based on current impressions (with several things still unclear) I like the idea of the changes overall. Moving from mana returned on overhealing and haste/clearcasting from a double RNG to a situation where we trigger the haste by spellchoice and get mana regen from crits is a step in the right direction in my view. (even if the Holy Concentration numbers are still unclear atm) Combined with the changes to our raid healing spells, I think we will be moving to a healstyle with less emphasis on procwatching, which I find a good thing. (Even if cheating the 5SR was fun to do)
Also still curious about the future of Hymn of Hope; I just can't see any reason for its removal, aside from it being scheduled for replacement. It was a situationally useful spell which was sadly rather underpowered, grounds on which Blizz normally doesn't remove spells. Given the indication of them working on it, my guess would be Hymn of Hope being replaced with something new while Divine Hymn gets reworked, both of these coming in a future PTR build.
Bingo. It seems with the combination of CoH losing it's spam use and PoH receiving it's long needed attention, Healing Prayers should take priority to Surge of Light.
It looks like the only real controversy comes in the data supporting Blessed Resilience and Test of Faith. I agree that ToF will likely be better due to the fact that burst damage is going to happen and a 12% boost is likely to prevent a player from dying rather than a 3% constant. I'm sure others will look into the data with me, but even if it is the case that a 3% constant is better statistically, ToF will be best in a real pve encounter.
With disc. changes, and the new serependity and renew, I'm thinking about going holy at 3.1. I fear that disc will be more and more spam penance / PW:S and fh, with no interest for gh, no mana for bh or POH.
I'm still trying to figure which glyphs I'll use. Flash heal seems pretty necessary with the serependity changes, POH might be needed also, and what for the 3rd one : COH ? Renew ?
My choice is also not fixed for the talents. Is inner focus mandatory ? I could definitely use the point somewhere else.
I'll take the renew talents, I do like this spell, and we don't have lots (at most one) tree in our raid.
So, question is : which talents to skip ?
Lightwell ? Healing prayers ? SoL ? Test of faith ? Blessed resilience ?
I like test of faith. That's the kind of talents that is really useful when you need it, not when the content is easy and you just play kikimeters. mid-life characters is somehow 10k HP, it's still enough not to be near death. But that's also a talent where you need to win the healing race : you don't want to heal after the other heal that puts your target back to 51% HP.
Blessed resilience is not overpowered, but that's a decent healing bonus though.
I don't like SOL like surge, and it's an anti-combo with HC now (which is mandatory). But's it's also free mana, and the anti-combo is not so bad (you get the SOL proc just after one crit, so you do have the HC buff anyway, and just won't refresh it after 1.5s). And it's an instant heal.
Lightwell is only one point, and I think that my raid will learn to use it if I cast it.
Healing prayer will depends on fights, but as we are 4 priest often in raids, amoung a 8 healers team (7 often in raid for new content), I can imagine us using it a lot. Just attribute groups, and put chamans on the tanks xD
02/24/09, 5:34 AM
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