WotLK Healing Compendium v3.0 [theorycraft, specs, etc] - Page 8

Sinndir · 11/12/08, 7:26 PM

Originally Posted by Dagma

The original post may be correct. The implication is that there is a half chance on each crit, the chance of each NON-proc is (1 - C/2), where C is the crit chance.

Chance of a proc, on a single hit: $\Pr(1|C) = C/2.$

Chance of a single non-proc: $\Pr(0|C) = 1 - \Pr(1|C) = 1 - C/2.$

Chance of n non-procs: $\Pr(0|C,n) = \Pr(0|C)^n = (1 - C/2)^n.$

And that looks the same as the implied calculations above.

Hmm that looks very good. Perhaps Liths looked incorrect because of the reasoning. I personally am trying to get a model of the chance per cast of CoH that would result in a SoL proc. I guess you could just take the opposite of your answer. Something like this perhaps?:

C = Crit Percentage (where 1.0 = 100%)
n = number of chances to proc (n = 2 for Binding Heal, n = 5 for CoH, n = 6 for glyphed COH)

Chance of n procs: $\Pr(0|C,n) = \Pr(0|C)^n = 1 - (1 - C/2)^n.$

Example #1:
Binding Heal
C = 21%
n = 2
$\Pr(0|C,n) = \Pr(0|C)^n = 1 - (1 - 0.21/2)^2.$
$\Pr(0|C,n) = 1 - (.801)$
$\Pr(0|C,n) = 0.199$
Or a 19.9% chance to get a SoL proc.

Example #2:
Circle of Healing
C = 21%
n = 5
$\Pr(0|C,n) = \Pr(0|C)^n = 1 - (1 - 0.21/2)^5.$
$\Pr(0|C,n) = 1 - (.5742)$
$\Pr(0|C,n) = 0.426$
Or a 42.6% chance to get a SoL proc.

Example #3:
Circle of Healing glyphed
C = 21%
n = 6
$\Pr(0|C,n) = \Pr(0|C)^n = 1 - (1 - 0.21/2)^6.$
$\Pr(0|C,n) = 1 - (.514)$
$\Pr(0|C,n) = 0.486$
Or a 48.6% chance to get a SoL proc.

This seems right as between examples #2 and #3 the chance increases which is right because as you get more chances to have the outcome you want (a SoL proc) the higher the chance of getting one should be.

Imua · 11/12/08, 7:40 PM

Originally Posted by Dagma

The original post may be correct. The implication is that there is a half chance on each crit, the chance of each NON-proc is (1 - C/2), where C is the crit chance.

Chance of a proc, on a single hit: $\Pr(1|C) = C/2.$

Chance of a single non-proc: $\Pr(0|C) = 1 - \Pr(1|C) = 1 - C/2.$

Chance of n non-procs: $\Pr(0|C,n) = \Pr(0|C)^n = (1 - C/2)^n.$

And that looks the same as the implied calculations above.

That's it exactly. The math itself is trivial as well. (Well, trivial to put into a computer)

Is there a good way to put a table in here?
Just for reference:

First % is non-Glyphed. Last column on the right is if you have Glyphed CoH:

Crit%    % of Proc    % of Proc
5.0         11.89         14.09
10.0        22.62         26.49
15.0        32.28         37.36
17.5        36.73         42.27
20.0        40.95         46.86
22.5        44.94         51.13
25.0        48.71         55.12
30.0        55.63         62.29
35.0        61.78         68.47

So yeah, at 20% Crit rate on a Glyphed CoH, you have a 46.86% chance to proc SoL. Again, if you spam it twice in a row, you're not guaranteed 100% to proc, but like almost 75%.

(Just for fun, you hit 50.0% chance to proc SoL at 25.89% crit chance on a non-glyphed and 21.82% crit chance on glyphed)

Havoc12 · 11/12/08, 8:31 PM

People are forgetting a critical factor with SoL. Overwriting procs. Although the calculation takes overwriting per cast of CoH into account it is very difficult to make a reasonable estimate of how many overwrites you get from multiple casts of CoH.

What I can assure you is that 1 SoL use per 5 seconds (you DONT care about how many procs you get) is the absoludely limit of usability. Its in fact absurdly low. The most reasonable estimate of SoL is 1 use per 10 seconds.

Strings where you get multiple procs in a couple of casts then no procs for 3 or 4 casts are fairly common and they result in very high proc wasting

constantius · 11/12/08, 8:58 PM

You do realize that 1 use every 5 seconds is effectively 1/3 of your casts being free? It doesn't matter. If I get a free Flash Heal every 2 CoH, that's entirely sufficient. It's more than sufficient. I'm unlikely to use more than that.

Razzberry · 11/13/08, 11:30 AM

It seems like it would be useful to discuss [Ember Skyflare Diamond] and [Revitalizing Skyflare Diamond] in the meta gem section as well.

Llnith · 11/13/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Crosshairs

I started looking at the [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] as an alternative. However I am not sure spirit will be my top stat so proccing 300 spirit and then trying to cheat the 5sr, might not be possible.

You know I saw that and was wondering the same thing if that +90 agi was spirit if that was your best stat....guess its something to get building.

I take that back, looking back at the comments, there is an option to pick up either 90 str, 90 agi, 90 int, or 90 spr.

Isin · 11/13/08, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Razzberry

It seems like it would be useful to discuss [Ember Skyflare Diamond] and [Revitalizing Skyflare Diamond] in the meta gem section as well.

It seems to me that the Skyflare Diamond is going to scale the best and provide the most mana efficiency. If you have 1000 intellect, the 2% intellect bonus is worth about 12 mp5 for a holy priest. Unless I am reading the Revitalizing wrong, it only increases your crit heals, but not the chance to crit, so this is not getting you any more HC or SoL procs; the only mana efficiency you get from it is potentially more Serendipity procs.

That being said, at 1000 intellect, the [Insightful Earthsiege Diamond] still provides more intellect overall and has the benefit of the mana regen. As I believe our limitation will be mana and not healing throughput, I think priests should go for the IED over either of the other two.

[Edit: OK, I read your post wrong- you think they should be included in the section. I agree, if just for the discussion.]

alkis · 11/13/08, 2:00 PM

I searched briefly through the thread and didn't find a mention about an Improved Holy Concentration bug. Sometimes it procs and I get no Imp. HC buffs, sometimes I get 1 and sometimes I get 2. Is this a known bug? Or am I missing something?

siegfried · 11/13/08, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by Isin

It seems to me that the Skyflare Diamond is going to scale the best and provide the most mana efficiency. If you have 1000 intellect, the 2% intellect bonus is worth about 12 mp5 for a holy priest. Unless I am reading the Revitalizing wrong, it only increases your crit heals, but not the chance to crit, so this is not getting you any more HC or SoL procs; the only mana efficiency you get from it is potentially more Serendipity procs.

That being said, at 1000 intellect, the [Insightful Earthsiege Diamond] still provides more intellect overall and has the benefit of the mana regen. As I believe our limitation will be mana and not healing throughput, I think priests should go for the IED over either of the other two.

Question 1: Would the benefit of 3% heal critical count towards Divine Aegis->Rapture? If so, wouldn't this benefit Discipline mana regen?

Question 2: If I understand correctly, you are saying that the 2% intellect would surpass the 21 intellect bonus after 1000 int limit is reached. If so, wouldn't you say that Skyflare would be more beneficial than IED?

Question 3: Wouldn't the Skyflare be better in every way just because throughput is beneficial for Rapture regen? Is it negligible? I can't tell.

Isin · 11/13/08, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by siegfried

Question 1: Would the benefit of 3% heal critical count towards Divine Aegis->Rapture? If so, wouldn't this benefit Discipline mana regen?

Question 2: If I understand correctly, you are saying that the 2% intellect would surpass the 21 intellect bonus after 1000 int limit is reached. If so, wouldn't you say that Skyflare would be more beneficial than IED?

Question 3: Wouldn't the Skyflare be better in every way just because throughput is beneficial for Rapture regen? Is it negligible? I can't tell.

2) It passes it at 1050 Intellect, and has synergy with Mental Strength, Kings, etc. But both effects of the IED help mana regen, while the other effect of Ember Skyflare only helps throughput (it's effect on Rapture is negligible).

Crosshairs · 11/13/08, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Sinndir

Crosshairs, do you know if the +90 agility is there for sure or is it +90 to a stat of your choosing then procs your highest stat? One way or another as a priest it should proc either intellect or spirit both of which increase our regen.

I don't have a lot of information yet, but it appears there are 4 according to the comments in wowhead. Int and Spirit are suppose possibilities. I was thinking of getting the spirit one to help ensure i have more spirit then int.

Plitschplatsch · 11/13/08, 5:17 PM

Int card vs Spirit card

The proc rate appears to be 100% with a 45 sec internal gcd giving it a 33% uptime or in other words ~190+ of the stat over time.

from World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Forum Index

from first post:
Discipline: 132 intellect = 1% crit, 31.3 Mp5
Holy: 150 intellect = 1% crit, 30.9 Mp5

So for holy the int trinket would equal 1.25% crit and about 40mp5 (correct my math if i make a mistake)
for inner focus tricks:
5* 005575 * (1000+300 for earring) * sqrroot(1000+300 for card proc) = 1306 mp5

Replenishment: 0.206 Mp5 / int (shamelessly ninjaed from Constantius post) *190 = 39mp5

Now of a holy priest gets a proc of the spirit version of this, uses Earring of Soulful Meditation/ Spirit World Glass ,does the usual Inner Focus trick and has some good timing to get 10 seconds oo5sr at 1000 spirit and 1000 int:

5 * 0.005575 * Spirit * Square_root ( Intellect ) = 5* 0.005575 * (1000+600) * Square_root(1000) = 2820 mp5

So at 10 seconds oo5sr: 5640 mana every three minutes additional to the increased mana regen with the constant spirit
and the random procs which can't be used for the 5sr.
I'll use the formula from the first post
Holy: 150 spirit = 46 Mp5 + 43 spellpower
and say 190 Spirit equals about 59 mp5 and 54 spellpower

So assuming 10 seconds oo5sr every three minutes:
Spirit: 59 mp5 , 54 spellpower , 31mp5 from inner focus = 90mp5 , 54 spellpower
Int: 40mp5 , 1.25% crit , 14 mp5 from inner focus, 39mp5 Replenishment = 93 mp5 1.25% crit

Not the result i hoped for tbh. I hoped that the spirit card in combination with inner focus oo5sr would beat the int version. But it seems that int reigns supreme as regen stat, even when doing nasty stuff with inner focus.
Any thoughts to my math/ideas?

bbartlog · 11/13/08, 5:33 PM

Practically speaking, can we imagine a situation where having these two talents together means we want our tank to have *less* health?

Assume I have both these talents, and:

- I'm in a single-target (tank) healing situation
- I'm casting a lot of Greater Heals
- I try to always time my heals to land when the tank is below 50% health, so as to get the Test of Faith bonuses
- I have a fair bit of crit (let's say 24%, plus 6% for Test of Faith if applicable)

Roughly I'm guessing my GHeals are going to be hitting for 9K-9.7K health and critting for 13.5K-14.5K. At lvl 80, 9K is not going to be enough to take any kind of tank from 40-50% life up to full; but 13.5K might or might not be, depending on tank gearing and gear choices.
Now obviously if there is spike damage in the form of crits, crushing blows, thrash attacks or what have you then having a lot of tank life to buffer it outweighs any benefit of getting Serendipity mana refunds.
But what if the encounter is more of a grueling endurance fight, where the tank has to stand in a fire (or equivalent) and take very predictable damage for a long time, and your main worry is going OOM? In this case, being able to get Serendipity procs on your crits, while still getting the benefits of Test of Faith, would be quite nice.
How well this could work would depend on how well you could land your heals within a narrow window of tank life. But for the sake of argument, say that you can reliably land a GHeal when the tank is between 35% and 50% life, with any value equally likely.
If the tank has 25K life, the amount to be healed is 12.5K-16.25K. About 40% of my crits will get Serendipity, 30% of my casts are crits, and I get 25% mana back on these. Average overhealing for Serendipity cases is less than 1K life. Total mana efficiency gain looks like about 2% (3% before accounting for overheal loss) averaged over all my GHeal casts.
If the tank has 30K life, the amount to be healed is 15K-19.5K. Only 4-5% of my crits will get Serendipity and the overall discount is negligible.
Note that if we make tank life much lower then we start to lose so much to overhealing that Serendipity is no longer desirable - getting back 1/4 the cost of a GHeal is not useful if we had to overheal by 3K to do it.

While I don't expect anyone to actually click off their Fort buff to try to min/max in this particular way, I think it's an interesting thought experiment.

Incoherence · 11/13/08, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by bbartlog

But what if the encounter is more of a grueling endurance fight, where the tank has to stand in a fire (or equivalent) and take very predictable damage for a long time, and your main worry is going OOM? In this case, being able to get Serendipity procs on your crits, while still getting the benefits of Test of Faith, would be quite nice.

As a practical matter, such a situation doesn't really happen, and even if it did happen you'd still have to ensure that there were predictable effects on your ability to time heals (and that you had constant latency).

My recollection was that you'd be healing for ~7k and critting for 10.5k when you hit 80, and that tanks had 25-30k health, meaning that you can't get Serendipity and Test of Faith on the same heal anyway; possibly if Guardian Spirit is up and your tank is on the low end of that range.

bbartlog · 11/13/08, 8:29 PM

~7k and critting for 10.5k when you hit 80

This sounds low, especially for a deep holy priest. Suppose I have 2000 spellpower.

- base healing for Rank 9 GHeal is 3950 (range is 3950-4590)
- coefficient seems to be about 1.85 (I've seen values of 1.8, 1.85 and 1.88 cited)
- 5/5 Empowered Healing adds another 40% to the spellpower bonus
- 5/5 Spiritual Healing adds 10% to all healing

(3950+((2000*1.85)*(1.4)))*1.10 = 10,043

Now, maybe I'm way off on the coefficient (I have more confidence in the other numbers), but it needs to drop by a very large amount to reduce the standard GHeal to 7K.

The bigger flaw IMO is that 2-3% is close to the most you can gain (maybe with really high crit you could do a little better), which seems like it wouldn't be enough to make up for the loss of safety from reducing the size of your tank's life buffer.

Tainter · 11/14/08, 4:19 AM

I find Serendipity a bit odd. It's actually quite difficult to get the maximum usefulness out of it.

Obviously the ideal situation for making use of it is if the holy Priest overheals for exactly 1. But not only is an overheal of at least 1 necessary to make use of Serendipity, but there's also a maximum. More than 25% overhealing with Serendipity is worse than no overhealing without Serendipity in terms of efficiency (but at least the target is then full health).

The problem I have now is crit. Most of my heals won't crit. So I target the 1 to 25% overhealing range for non-crits. So every time I'm successful in hitting that range I'm completely negating any bonus healing out of crit. I just don't gain any extra healing.

On the other hand I could try to have my crits be in the 1 to 25% overhealing range. But then whenever I'm successful my non-crit heals will not benefit from Serendipity.

Let's say I've got 25% crit chance. My potential effective healing (without any overhealing) is then: Non-crit output + 0.25 * 0.5 * (non-crit output) = 1.125 * (non-crit output).

Case A)
Let's assume for a moment I'm a genius (or extremely lucky) and all my non-crit heals overheal for exactly 1. Then I have a permanent 25% cost reduction from Serendipity. But I never make any use of my crit healing. So I get (1 / 1.125) = 89% of potential healing for 75% cost. (Ratio: 1.187)

Case B)
All my crits overheal for 1. Then I get 100% of my potential healing for (75% * 100% + 25% * 75%) = 93.75% cost. (Ratio 1.067)

For serendipity purposes I should just try to forget that my crits heal for 50% more. It's nice that crits make getting Serendipity more likely, but really I shouldn't be using it like that. So at maximum Serendipity use I "only" get holy concentration, improved holy concentration, surge of light and inspiration from my crits.

Of course nobody can use Serendipity like that. It is literally impossible to use perfectly. And if you're spamming heals in a throughput fight you won't care much anyway. But then again in the same situation I can probably utilise Rapture much better.

I guess I don't like Serendipity much.

Edit:
I thought about this some more and perhaps Serendipity is a very clever talent. If you need efficiency then you're better off ignoring your crit healing and take the higher cost reduction chance. If you need throughput on the other hand you could try to use your crits completely at the cost of efficiency. A general trade-off between efficiency and effectiveness is actually quite desirable.

The Not So Evil · 11/14/08, 7:38 AM

Using Rawr, I dressed a character up in T7-25 and some random pieces in the remaining slots, fully enchanted and gemmed, and then compared [Item not found!], [Comet's Trail], [Item not found!] and [Item not found!].

Obviously, if mana is your problem, [Comet's Trail] is the better choice. That goes for both Discipline and Holy.

[Item not found!] seems to be clear #1 for both Holy and Disc if mana is no longer a problem (The gear I picked was heavy on Crit), followed by [Item not found!]. [Item not found!] is not far behind however, and is the better choice if you cannot fit 3 Red gems.

Metagems should now be properly implemented for next release, and hopefully I will have most trinkets added as well. Glyphs is next on list after that.

Working a bit on Trinkets, and 2 trinkets might need a swing with the nerfbat, as they are phenomenal if you are somewhat drained on the mana. [Item not found!] and [Item not found!].

According to Wowhead comments, [Item not found!] so far has no known internal cooldown. Depending on your critrate and what spell you are using and how many targets you hit, it can equal from 100mp5 to 400mp5. Would not surprise me to see it have a 45s internal cooldown eventually, putting it around 75mp5 - 100mp5.

If [Item not found!] procs once every 2 minutes, it equals (assuming 30% meditation) 15s/120s*(100%-30%) = 8.75%, or nearly as much as 1 point in Meditation.

siegfried · 11/14/08, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by The Not So Evil

Working a bit on Trinkets, and 2 trinkets might need a swing with the nerfbat, as they are phenomenal if you are somewhat drained on the mana. [Item not found!] and [Item not found!].

If [Item not found!] procs once every 2 minutes, it equals (assuming 30% meditation) 15s/120s*(100%-30%) = 8.75%, or nearly as much as 1 point in Meditation.

AFAIK, Blue Dragon has always been that good, and in the right situations, way better than Memento (or similar.) I doubt Blizzard will nerf the card just because it is a scalable item. The SotD on the other hand, probably needs a nerf, especially for Discipline and Paladins.

Cunegonde · 11/14/08, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Tainter

I find Serendipity a bit odd. It's actually quite difficult to get the maximum usefulness out of it.

Obviously the ideal situation for making use of it is if the holy Priest overheals for exactly 1. But not only is an overheal of at least 1 necessary to make use of Serendipity, but there's also a maximum. More than 25% overhealing with Serendipity is worse than no overhealing without Serendipity in terms of efficiency (but at least the target is then full health).

Edit:
I thought about this some more and perhaps Serendipity is a very clever talent. If you need efficiency then you're better off ignoring your crit healing and take the higher cost reduction chance. If you need throughput on the other hand you could try to use your crits completely at the cost of efficiency. A general trade-off between efficiency and effectiveness is actually quite desirable.

Rapture is a 36 point talent down the discipline tree, so it's really not something you can easily compare to serendipity, which falls at the end of the holy tree.

But:

Rapture returns mana for every heal at .025*~10,000 @ level 70 which is about 250 mana per greater heal cast regardless of over healing. It also returns mana based on absorption from shields. Serendipity, on the other hand, is returning .22*10,000 @ level 70 (obviously in both scenarios I'm imagining a 10,000 mana pool) that's about 220 returned mana per over heal. Obviously rapture is an overall better mana return.

Serendipity is not something you spec holy for. You spec into holy to be both a powerful AOE healer as well a sufficient tank healer. You will make heavy use of CoH and your other instant heals, such as PoM and SoL procs. Discipline priests in PVE provide raid utility, strong tank healing, and powerful absorption. You will make heavy use of Greater heals as well as flash heal and penance.

You are able support spam healing as a holy priest because of the mana saving talents, but you will be less efficient than a discipline priest would have been for that purpose. Serendipity is a way to make flash heals affordable and to make up for taking away the ability to down rank greater heals. It's not intended to give holy priests the same greater healing abilities as a discipline priest.

Incoherence · 11/14/08, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by The Not So Evil

If [Item not found!] procs once every 2 minutes, it equals (assuming 30% meditation) 15s/120s*(100%-30%) = 8.75%, or nearly as much as 1 point in Meditation.

First of all, Blue Dragon has always been that good; it's just incredibly unreliable and gives exactly zero throughput benefit, so even though it was technically the best in slot regen trinket in BC after 2.4 (and maybe even before that; I can't remember), and a lot of people had it from pre-BC, it wasn't commonly used.

But it's per-cast, so in order to get a proc every 2 minutes you'd need to cast a spell every 2.4 seconds, which you probably can't pull off for long. And with the new emphasis on intellect, you're probably not going to have proportionally as much spirit regen at 80 as you did at 70, so it becomes somewhat less useful than before.

The Not So Evil · 11/15/08, 4:45 AM

Originally Posted by Incoherence

First of all, Blue Dragon has always been that good; it's just incredibly unreliable and gives exactly zero throughput benefit, so even though it was technically the best in slot regen trinket in BC after 2.4 (and maybe even before that; I can't remember), and a lot of people had it from pre-BC, it wasn't commonly used.

But it's per-cast, so in order to get a proc every 2 minutes you'd need to cast a spell every 2.4 seconds, which you probably can't pull off for long. And with the new emphasis on intellect, you're probably not going to have proportionally as much spirit regen at 80 as you did at 70, so it becomes somewhat less useful than before.

As Discipline, each Penance tick can proc it. Your PW: Shields can, your Flash Heals can, perhaps even your Prayer of Mending could. You are easily passing one cast/2.4s. As Holy, you are below 2.4 second Greater Heal quite fast.

The reason I believe it suddenly looks so strong is the removal of Chain Potting. That and the new focus on *Mana* (which is why Intellect is so good).

It did not use to stand out as much as it does now.

Imua · 11/15/08, 12:52 PM

I have a question regarding the importance of Divine Fury (reduced casting time by up to .5 sec) for a Disc spec priest. Now, in the past, it was completely obvious that this was a must-have talent. It buffs your GHeal immeasurably because of the reduced casting time without reducing the coefficient.

However, as a Disc priest, I find myself VERY rarely casting GHeal. This makes me now wonder if it's even worth it. You obviously want to spend those points somewhere to eventually get Inspiration - but are Imp Renew or Spell Warding better than reducing the cast time on a spell you rarely use? (And I say this as a lvl 72 now - who knows how things will change at 80 or if/when Blizz does their revamp)

Witchsong · 11/15/08, 1:51 PM

The compendium states base mana is 3875... Is that for level 80? 'cause the level 70 one gotta be significantly lower than that if the Rapture formula is gonna be correct...

Tainter · 11/15/08, 3:06 PM

Witchsong:
Yes, that's for 80. This is the WotLK compendium. In this thread 70 doesn't matter anymore. 70 base mana is somewhere around 2600.

Arrox · 11/15/08, 5:00 PM

This is regarding Penance.

I am leveling as Deep Disc and to start out with it, it all went fine. However, now im experiencing the same that was the problem with Mindflay. My penance last tick gets cut away. Using the lag indicator on my casting bar I start my next cast once penance hits the highlighted latency mark but still the last tick's gone missing.

Are there anyone else that can confirm that happening to them aswell?