• Valoran

Cast bar latency counters display your latency when you start casting the spell and are only meant as a guideline. A mod like quartz doesn't update latency at the end of the cast, so any "cut off" is likely due to a slight change in latency and not nesscessarily indicative of a bug.

 

Thorongil

Basically, you do not really have big need for Divine Fury in 5man while leveling. You´ll be able to nearly exclusively heal with Penance, Flash Heal, PoM and in case you should need a GH just toss a shield before doing so and you´re down to 2.5

However, at level 80 you will want to specc Divine Fury. Firstly, as you correctly pointed out, you will want to have Inspiration and impRenew as well as Healing Focus are pointless. Spell Warding has its uses but is vastly inferior to Divine Fury. You will rarely save anything in a group by taking 10 % less spell damage, while a quicker GH will save you numerous times. You´ll also find yourself using GH as soon as you do Heroics/Raids. You simply need the spell to cover those times when Shield, PoM and Penance are on cooldown and that happens all the time unless you are severly overgeared.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Idril.png

 

Incoherence

But you're not going to be able to keep that up for long. Discipline might be able to sustain that cast rate with Penance, but Holy absolutely can't chain-cast Greater Heal for more than a couple of minutes. If you're not casting, you can't proc Blue Dragon.

Intellect is so good now for a completely different reason. The reason intellect is so good is because a number of regen effects are now based on your max mana. Intellect's effect on spirit regen is not terribly high (the breakpoint where 1 int becomes more spirit regen than 1 spirit is when you have roughly twice as much spirit as you do intellect). But since Replenishment/Mana Tide/Shadowfiend all work based on your max mana, more max mana, and therefore more intellect, increases the potency of these abilities.

Which brings us to Blue Dragon. Compare a level 80 priest with the 3.0 mechanics against a hypothetical level 80 priest with the 2.4 mechanics, with the same level of gear but not necessarily the same pieces. The 2.4 priest would have higher base regen. Why? Because the 3.0 priest has more crit and more intellect, because those two things help him more than more base regen. In other words, Blue Dragon is comparatively LESS effective now. People are looking at it because it's a scaling regen trinket which has always been good, not because it's any better now than it was pre-WotLK (where it was the best available regen trinket, although lacking in +healing or now spell power).

 

Tashia

I don't think you are wrong here, don't know if the math is correct but I am leveling as holy spec and at lvl 75 have 7k GH and 10-12k crits (that's GH rank8) and +15k crit with guardian spirit (I have around 1300 spellpower).

So 10k GH with rank 9 and 2000 SP seams very reasonable.

 

Xokati

Hello
Spellweave set or Moonshroud set for priest?
First gives more healing(hastle) 2nd more spirit(regen) and stamina(survavibility). What is your opinion?

 

• constantius

Neither, get T7. The cloth pieces aren't even worth making, tbh. T7 chest is available from badges, so run 30 heroics and be done with it.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

Xokati

Oh i didnt notice this, anyway [Robes of Crackling Flame] looks nice.

 

Thorongil

Not really. Lacking Spirit does not really make them desireable for Holy and Haste in general is of no real use, unless you are completely fed up with Reg and Crit, which you won´t be in blues/Naxx-Gear. Anyways, that question would fit neatly in the new Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread but it has no real relevance in the theorycrafting thread.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Idril.png

 

Cosi

My priest is in greens so this is better then what I have at the moment: [Pigment-Stained Robes]

I was going to use those for my heroic runs to get T7. There might be better ones somewhere but that's what I found when I went searching the other day.

Edit: I see we have a new thread for this stuff. My bad.

 

mjs9893

Forgive the ignorance of this post if this has been discussed before.

Has anyone looked at a hybrid healing build such that was popular per WotLK?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Is it worth giving up those goodies deep holy to pick up more stats talents in the mid disc tree?

I was disappointed with disc's apparent throughput. I never ran out of mana or even came close, but it feels like i just wasnt healing enough for a full disc build. Of course i say apparent as I really can't see how much my shields "heal" for and how much damage was prevented from grace ect. But it just didnt feel like I had the umph that deep holy did. I ended up relying on the glyphed nova for a good chunk (30%) of my 5 man healing.

I was looking for something that included circle of healing, but had more sustainability than deep holy did.

I plan on running deep disc for single target healing and flipping to holy to fill the raid healing role in 10 mans, but was unsure what my holy build should be.

Please help me with my misconceptions because it seems that no one is thinking about this kind of build.

 

Isin

The talents you're getting in Disc don't make up for the talents you're skipping in Holy. Mental Strength is very good, but it's hardly game changing. Enlightenment is ok for pvp and soloing, but actually pretty unimpressive for pve. If you're not going deep enough in Disc to get Rapture, you're better off spending the extra points in holy to improve your spells there.

I also don't understand your rationale for point choice in holy. Healing Focus is unattractive for PVE in comparison to pretty much anything else. Missing Serendipity is a big mistake in my opinion.

I'm not sure why you found deep holy "unsustainable", but if you're skipping Serendipity, that might be a big part of why. IHC will also help you with mana issues after you have a good amount of crit.

 

bbartlog

I think the jury is still out. It's true that if you choose gear to take maximum advantage of some of the new talents (notably Rapture, or Veiled Shadows), which is to say, you stack a ton of int rather than maximizing passive regen by stacking spirit, then Blue Dragon is a bad gear choice for you.
A lot depends on what we think typical (spirit-based) mana regen is going to look like at 80. If gearing is such that you can simply get double the stats at 80 that you can at 70, passive regen holds up very well. My stats at 70 were (roughly) 600 spirit and 450 int, which gives a ballpark figure of 600mp5 OO5SR:

5*(sqrt(450)*600)*0.009327=594

At 80, optimistic assumptions about itemization would get us

5*(sqrt(900)*1200)*0.005575=1004 mp5

while a more pessimistic model (based on some beta toons I've seen) looks more like 1000 spirit and 800 int, which gets about 800 mp5.

In either case, one useful way to look at it is to ask what the average mana discount is, per spellcast. Since we already have meditation, the mana return of getting 15 seconds of full regen is only 70% of the above values (x3 since it 3 5 second periods). Proc chance is 2% as always. These values don't account for the fact that that we would presumably have spent some time (of the following 15 seconds) OO5SR anyway, so should be further discounted by a percentage equal to the percent of time we think we will spend OO5SR.

At 70, mana return is (600*70%)*3*2% = 25.2 mana (per cast)
At 80 (pessimistic) it's (800*70%)*3*2% = 33.6 mana
At 80 (optimistic) it's (1000*70%)*3*2% = 42 mana

The ratio of base mana at 80 to base mana at 70 (which determines all spell costs) is 3863/2620 or about 1.47 to 1. If spell mix is unchanged and nothing else changes, the trinket would have to give an average discount of (25.2 * 1.47) or 37 mana to be at the same level of power as it was previously. This is within the range estimated above.

However, there are other factors that actually improve the Blue Dragon rather than just keeping it on par. For a deep holy build, especially, new talents and glyphs mean that we will be able to (and presumably will be) casting more spells, for less mana (as a % of base) than we did previously. This gives us more chances to proc Blue Dragon and means that the average discount (or mana return), measured as a percentage of spell cost, is higher.
In particular:
- IHC and SoL mean that we get an additional spellcast at no cost a significant percentage of the time
- Serendipity's discount allows for additional casts
- glyphed Renew means we will cast Renew more often; reduced cooldown on PoM (via Providence) means we will cast that more often. This is relevant because these are both cheap spells (15% and 17% of base), and increasing their frequency in our rotation reduces our average mana-per-cast, making the average percentage discount of Blue Dragon larger (or increasing our chance to proc it per mana used, depending on your perspective).

Further, if we are casting more spells per unit time then the time we spend OO5SR will naturally decrease and the value of the Blue Dragon proc will correspondingly be greater.

 

bbartlog

I currently run a hybrid build to help me level, but I'm not under the illusion that it heals anywhere near as well as a pure disc *or* pure holy build. So far the idea has been to try to keep Mental Strength and Enlightenment (for strong passive regen and low/no downtime - also the 5% haste adds up when grinding) while still having Improved Healing / Spiritual Guidance / Spiritual Healing for some amount of healing power. Some back of the envelope math suggests I can heal about 80% as well as someone who is specced pure healing / deep holy.
I think the talent layout is an improvement in that respect - in TBC, I didn't feel I was missing much (outside a raid setting) by speccing as a hybrid. Post-3.0.2, while I still have a hybrid spec for reasons of versatility, I *do* feel like I've sacrificed some fairly significant abilities.

 

mjs9893

Thanks for the responses guys.

I just wanted to make sure i didnt miss a post about this already. It looks like i will have no need to be versatile when i can just spec one or the other when dual spec's become available.

Deep in one tree or the other depending on the role.

 

PowerBaton

Indeed, from both perspectives (tank healer, raid healer) hybrid build sucks as hell, You gonna be poor tank and raid (except party maybe) healer.

Go holy for raid, go disc for tank

 

Skwiz

Shouldn't you use .85 for your GHeal coefficient, not 1.85?

 

Clarity

Apologies if this question is out of place in this thread.

I was wondering what the make up of Wrath endgame raid healing looks like? I ask because the proposed cooldown on CoH certainly changes things. In TBC we were always short Resto Shaman in SWP, so I and my fellow healing priest were CoH 99% of the time to cover the AoE healing requirements. With these new changes I want to believe there is a lot more flexibility in raid healing roles (Druids with AoE heals! Priests using /gasp FH as a tank mainstay and PW:Shield!!) Perhaps it's too soon to tell, but if any endgame testers have some insight I would appreciate it.

 

Isin

How could people have tested something that's never been implemented? Though COH had the CD in very early beta, nearly everything else about healing was different, so it is impossible to say what the CD would do in a vacuum. Also, it has been stated by blue that any change to the CD would result in changes to other holy talents and other healer specs as well.

Right this would just be a call for speculation. Lets wait and see.

 

Sinndir

Though I agree CoH is/was a very powerful tool both today and in Sunwell you simply cannot say you were CoH'ing 99% of the time. At most you would CoH every cast between your PoM cooldowns. With a bit of haste you are looking at 7 casts every 10 seconds and one of them should be a PoM.

Now, though CoH is still very strong I find that I do not have the mana to sustain the long bouts of pressing the CoH button like I did pre-WotLK. I have been running 10 man (with 7-8 people) Naxx and Sartharion and have found that I use almost all of my spells. With 2 healers, sometimes 3, you need to be versatile and that happens to be our greatest strength.

Also, everyone should have the Flash Heal glyph it is simply glorious.

 

Clarity

My bad. Confusion abounds at my poor choice of words. We were spec'd CoH most of the time rather than one of us going Imp DS. I did not mean to imply we pushed our 2 key and nothing else.

I was more trying to get a feel for the flexibility of healing classes in raid roles, I personally found it somewhat inflexible toward the end of TBC but as has been pointed out speculation is pointless and really has no place here. Question answered, moving on.

 

Mojofabulous

I'm having trouble seeing the light in regards to Holy Concentration and Improved Holy Concentration. I look at the talents and I can see where the value is to be had in them. But under current circumstances I fail to see the application. Our crit for the most part is not that great, far less than pre-expac(I'm at 8.69% unbuffed atm) Obviously it gets higher in raids but this is already a big impact on the value of these two talents. Coh is not nerfed yet, I haven't heard anything about it since before the expac came out and until it is nerfed it's still a high use spell, spammed at times. If you're using coh more you're using flash and greater less, unless it's a SoL proc which can't affect HC/IHC.

Then come the fights where HC/IHC would become useful which are the same places where coh is less useful. I think Sapphiron is a great example of one of these types of fights. The only time I'm seeing any type of significant amount of crits is from CoH and PoM. CoH can't be used a heck of a lot on saph except when gathering behind ice blocks and at that point I'm usually desperately trying to regen mana. Even so, Coh doesn't affect HC/IHC. PoM doesn't affect it either, nor does renew. Almost all my healing during that fight is coming from pom renew and flash. Lets say the flash, which is the lowest on the totem pole of my choice in healing during that fight(though I definitely do use it) actually crits, I get a free flash, great, my 6 bounce pom probably already generated a SoL proc and what good does the haste do me? None, no one is dying fast in that fight, you can take your time choosing targets.

Long story short, until our crit is significantly higher due to gearing up and CoH takes a hit in terms of spur of the moment use I can't see justification for taking these two talents when you consider the alternative talents which give constant return to a greater range of spells.

Here are a couple talent builds as examples of what I mean:

Here is a fairly logical HC/IHC build: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...h=000000000000

This is the alternative: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...h=000000000000

Comparing the two builds, you gain from the alternative:

1. 4% spell power and get a .5 second cast mass dispel(scoff if you like but man is it nice in situations where your tank is taking a lot of dmg but you need to dispel more than 1 person asap or dispel a mob in a group and aren't sure which one it is without taking time to really look.

2. 6% intellect. Completely unbuffed thats just under 50 int and I'm no where near well geared in northrend terms.

3. 10% larger radius on CoH. There's been discussion about this in the prior pages and I've no need to argue it's merits vs downsides. If you are on the side that likes this talent, you could remove the 4th point from empowered healing to go 2/2 Holy Reach. This should really only be considered if you're going for an all out AE CoH spam-like build.

4. 20% less mana cost on PoM and PoH. Translates in to about 104 mana per PoM. Only time I use PoH is for loatheb but you'd save ~333 mana if you did use it.

5. An additional 25% chance to have your spell crits proc SoL

By going for the alternative you would lose:

1. 8% spell power benefit to greater heal and 4% to flash heal and binding heal.

2. 45% chance to gain a mana free greater, flash and binding heal after casting a critical greater, flash and binding heal. The next 2 casts after the proc are also 30% hasted.




What am I missing?

 

Isin

The short answer is that your crit is far too low. HC and IHC get commesurate value when your crit is around 20% raid buffed, and you should see between 25 and 30 at the end of Naxx10 and Naxx25 (I believe those are the numbers const threw out in his original post).

On another note, your HC/IHC build is hardly cookie-cutter. Taking DS is limiting you from getting deeper holy goodies, such as Divine Prov and Guardian Spirit. In a raid setting you should assume that you have another disc priest, or at the very least an affliction warlock, diminishing the need for you to spec DS. Mental Strength is nice, but you wouldn't pick it up in a deep holy build. HC/IHC also has great synergy with Test of Faith, which you're skipping. If you still want to pick up those other talents in the holy tree you mentioned (like holy reach) after all that, you should take them out of empowered healing.

The cookie cutter spec is the one provided by const in the OP. I will personally be moving some points out of holy to get Mental Agility unless the COH nerf comes sooner rather than later, in which case all bets are off.

 

Mojofabulous

Ya my point is that with current crit rates for people not swimming in 10/25 man naxx gear and coh not being nerfed yet, I see no point in having those talents.

 

Damien

I was wondering if there has been any discussion about the effectiveness of different specs for 5 or 10 mans vs. 25 mans?

I know that Silent Resolve isn't on anyone's list for raiding, but from the 5-mans I've run, I wouldn't go without it.

Are 5 people few enough that Discipline become superior? Are 10 people numerous enough to warrant Holy?

How important is Divine Spirit when you may not have any other class that can provide a spirit buff?

Is Guardian Spirit needed on "smaller" content, or is it used mostly for those predictable huge boss spike damage abilities?

 

Sinndir

Ahh fair enough. I've been running 10-man Naxx and Sartharion with a Disc Priest and myself as a full holy priest and we're having a great time healing. Strengths are that of a strong tank healer combined with a strong raid healer. I think that the Imp DS may not be needed (if you run with shamans), however you should definitely take normal divine spirit.