At what crit rating would it be a good idea, as a full holy priest, to drop mental agility and max out HC/IHC?
Has more to do with the mix of spells you use and your healing role than with crit rating, as well as what shortfall you feel you're trying to address. Because you get a fair bit of crit percentage cheap or free, but stacking a lot more via gear is expensive, most holy priests are going to end up somewhere between 20 and 30% crit in a raid setting. That's not really a huge range.
In the current state of play (no cooldown on CoH) a lot of priests in 25-man seem to be getting most of their healing from Circle of Healing and Prayer of Mending, which means that Mental Agility might be better for them than full HC/IHC. After the cooldown for Circle of Healing goes in, the mix will change and I expect HC/IHC to become comparatively more valuable. Once there is actual post-3.0.8 data we can put some more actual numbers on it, but my guess is that no Holy Priests will be wanting Mental Agility once the CoH cooldown goes live.
What is the CoH cooldown going to do to our valuation of haste as AoE healers? It seems to me that I'm never going to want to cast anything that delays my next CoH, so any value of haste that doesn't let me squeeze an extra GCD inside a 6-second window is going to be functionally worthless.
any value of haste that doesn't let me squeeze an extra GCD inside a 6-second window is going to be functionally worthless
This would only be true if CoH were infinitely more valuable than the other spells you were squeezing in, so that any delay in using the cooldown (past six seconds) were a catastrophe. In reality, people will start squeezing in an extra cast well before they can actually get the time down to exactly six seconds, because getting (for example) an extra Flash Heal off is generally worth more than you lose by delaying your CoH by 0.3 seconds.
The situation is further complicated by the fact that Greater Heal's cast time is less than two GCDs. So someone who has 15% haste can't squeeze in an extra Flash Heal or other 1.5-second/GCD spell without delaying Circle of Healing, but they *can* do CoH->Flash Heal->Flash Heal->Greater Heal inside of six seconds, which comes to basically the same amount of healing. Similarly, even a small amount of haste (8%) will allow CoH->Greater Heal->Greater Heal inside the timeframe.
Basically, I agree with the idea that the value of haste is not flat, nor even a smooth curve of diminishing returns - but it's not some steep stairstep function either.
This would only be true if CoH were infinitely more valuable than the other spells you were squeezing in, so that any delay in using the cooldown (past six seconds) were a catastrophe. In reality, people will start squeezing in an extra cast well before they can actually get the time down to exactly six seconds, because getting (for example) an extra Flash Heal off is generally worth more than you lose by delaying your CoH by 0.3 seconds.
The situation is further complicated by the fact that Greater Heal's cast time is less than two GCDs. So someone who has 15% haste can't squeeze in an extra Flash Heal or other 1.5-second/GCD spell without delaying Circle of Healing, but they *can* do CoH->Flash Heal->Flash Heal->Greater Heal inside of six seconds, which comes to basically the same amount of healing. Similarly, even a small amount of haste (8%) will allow CoH->Greater Heal->Greater Heal inside the timeframe.
Basically, I agree with the idea that the value of haste is not flat, nor even a smooth curve of diminishing returns - but it's not some steep stairstep function either.
This is hokey. not your cycle, or the logic behind it, but rather the need for it The fact that we know have optimum haste numbers.. valleys and peaks if you will is dumb.
I.e if you're castign cycle is X,Y,Y,Z,X then H1 haste is what you are looking for.. as long as you stick with x,y,y,z,x cycle you won't get any more benefit from haste again until H2 haste.
I'm not sure there are that many fights where the cycle is that consistent tho.
Last edited by Nomad_Wanderer : 12/12/08 at 4:42 PM.
I apologize if this has been asked about previously. I have been raiding as Discipline for about two weeks and I love it. I am, however, curious about the talent Renewed Hope.
I apologize if this has been asked about previously. I have been raiding as Discipline for about two weeks and I love it. I am, however, curious about the talent Renewed Hope.
Renewed Hope is one of the most commonly dropped talents in the tree. It is really useful in times where you have an undergeared tank, or even you are a little undergeared, so as to increase throughput, Divine Aegis and Inspiration procs, and useful in conjunction with timed burst. It is one of the weaker talents in the tree, though. I think it's very worth taking to raid, not only because of the synergies with the high crit rate Disc priests tend to run with, but also because there really isn't anything better to take.
However, Improved Divine Spirit is completely useless is a raid environment because it does not stack with Flametongue Totem (which overwrites it), and is blown out of the water by Totem of Wrath. Normal Divine Spirit is still good, but since Imp DS no longer scales and is lesser than the raiding spellpower buffs, it's not worth taking unless your raid has absolutely no shamans.
I don't think it's that big a deal. Personally I value haste primarily for the improved reaction time, and secondarily for the improved throughput in single-target healing situations. Reaching some threshold where I can squeeze an extra cast in between CoH cooldowns seems kind of theoretical.
Anyway, when I ran a spreadsheet to look at this it turns out that adding a 2.5-second cast time spell (Greater Heal) to the options pretty well eliminates the flat spot in haste returns. If you *only* have 1.5 second casts to squeeze in between CoH casts, then there is a dead spot between zero haste and 5% haste where you gain no throughput: casting an extra Flash Heal would cause you to delay CoH by more than you would gain from the cast. If you want to also throw in some efficiency considerations then the dead spot extends a little further.
Around 5-6% haste, however, it makes sense to cast the fourth flash heal, even though we are delaying our Circle of Healing by over one second (7.18 second cycle or less). What we lose by delaying CoH we make up by not waiting around for the cooldown.
After that, the gains are quite linear up to 25% haste. You're gaining because you've already passed the point where it makes sense to squeeze in the fourth Flash Heal, and now what your haste is doing is reducing the time between CoH casts, back down to six seconds.
This conclusion is more or less the opposite of what was originally proposed. The size of the flat spot is fairly small because CoH is only about twice as good as Flash Heal in terms of throughput. If it were fantastically, improbably better then we would see a different result - a big flat spot where haste did no good, and a short span where we realized all the gains. Instead the flat is only about 5% of a 25% range.
What's the best strategy to use while healing Sapphiron.10 while disc? I kept PoM on cooldown as my top priority. I'd use PoH whenever it was needed and then kept to shielding and flashing when I couldn't do anything else. I kept the tank up as well but he didn't need much healing outside a penance+shield every once in a while. Am I gimping the raid by being disc specced on Sapphiron?
Hello,
I've been searching for information/feed back on the Nobles deck, in regards to priests (obviously), so many apologies if this has been addressed and I've just been too blind to actually stumble across it. So, I was wondering if it was ideal for a trinket to pick up, but also which to choose from, since the trinket can have Intellect or Spirit on it. Currently I am Holy (no plans of switching to Disc...unless somehow I am missing some great and grand knowledge that everyone else knows and I do not) and am an Alchemist (with trinket equipped). I do have the Egg of Haste from badges, and in hopes of having Spirit-World Glass trinket to drop. So, I guess it boils down to is 6 less spirit (or 90 more Int) a use of 36 more spirit (or 300 more Int) against a chance on cast for five seconds less than the use trinket, but able to proc every 30 seconds. (Hope that made sense...)
What's the best strategy to use while healing Sapphiron.10 while disc? I kept PoM on cooldown as my top priority. I'd use PoH whenever it was needed and then kept to shielding and flashing when I couldn't do anything else. I kept the tank up as well but he didn't need much healing outside a penance+shield every once in a while. Am I gimping the raid by being disc specced on Sapphiron?
I have healed Sapphiron.10 with 2 healers several times as Disc. Obviousily its a big advantage to have 1 shaman (Mana Stream Totem) and 2 Paladins (Kings and Wisdom) and Replenishment. Dont shield non-mana users, Keep Prayer of Mending on cooldown, and do use PW: Shield / Greater Heal combo. Also use Power Infusion on yourself whenever you feel you fall a bit behind.
Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules. Get Your Rawr 2.3.x!
If you're like most people, you have a few melee and a few ranged. What I typically do (as holy, but it applies equally well to Disc) is bounce PoMs off the melee, PW:S/FH/Renew the ranged, and occasionally use GHeal to catch myself up on someone who missed both of these things (or got caught in a Blizzard).
As Disc, you might consider PoM on the melee every cooldown (it'll easily bounce 6x for 4k+ each time in the 10 seconds), PW:S on mana users in range who don't have weakened soul, and use Penance on cooldown to top up the lowest person in range.
Ideally, whatever your job, if you're raid healing, you should rarely if ever have to think about topping up the MT. That's the other healer's job (if you run with 2 healers); one raid healer, one tank healer. I mean, obviously you could do the tank healing and get the other person to cover the raid, but if it's a paladin, Beacon is so OP that they might as well be on the tank.
As well, consider Glyph'ing Holy Nova for collapses, as you can keep the raid topped up quite nicely with PoM and Holy Nova for the 10+ seconds you're collapsing and hiding behind Ice Blocks.
In the end, if the raid lives, you did your job (provided you have enough mana to pull it off). Doesn't really matter what tools you use.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
I am sure this is a basic question but I've been looking for an answer and can't find it here or on other forums.
Situation: Multiple PoMs active in raid boss fight
PoM (A) cast at 1800SP
PoM (B) cast at 1750SP
PoM (C) cast at 1600SP
If they are all cast on melee who are tanking/DPSing within 20 yards, what is the mechanic of the jumping PoMs? To be specific, can on PoM jump on another? Say PoM (C) procs and 'smart' jumps to the lowest health, then PoM (A) does the same, does PoM (A) 'overwrite' PoM (C) because it is a more powerful spell?
In the other direction, if healer (C) try to cast PoM (C) on the Tank who currently has the PoM (A) buff, won't the caster get the "already a more powerful spell" rejection? If so, what if PoM (A) is on the Tank and PoM (C) tries to jump from another toon to the Tank? Will it simply end the spell, or will it look for another target to jump to?
Even though it might seem better to have 3 x PoMs floating about, if they are all 'smart' and jump to the lowest heal % toon, then the PoM cast at the higher SP will cancel the others out won't it?
Forgive me if this has already been posted--I glanced at Snowy's WWS thread for shadow priests, but nothing has been posted yet, and my guild is not currently running WWS.
What sort of DPS numbers are your shadow priests putting out on single target fights?
Would like to hear from all ends of the spectrum: casual and hardcore (if they even exist at this point in time), 10 and 25 man.
Forgive me if this has already been posted--I glanced at Snowy's WWS thread for shadow priests, but nothing has been posted yet, and my guild is not currently running WWS.
What sort of DPS numbers are your shadow priests putting out on single target fights?
Would like to hear from all ends of the spectrum: casual and hardcore (if they even exist at this point in time), 10 and 25 man.
Nhala, throughout our last full Naxx clear (Wed December 10th), our only shadow priest was as follows:
Overall damage averaging 3268 DPS (trash included)
Trash damage averaging 2940 DPS
Boss damage averaging 3505 DPS
Patchwerk with 3973 DPS (previous two Patchwerk kills were 3219 DPS and 4136 DPS)
If you want to look at specific parses, send me a PM.
Hello,
I've been searching for information/feed back on the Nobles deck, in regards to priests (obviously), so many apologies if this has been addressed and I've just been too blind to actually stumble across it. So, I was wondering if it was ideal for a trinket to pick up, but also which to choose from, since the trinket can have Intellect or Spirit on it. Currently I am Holy (no plans of switching to Disc...unless somehow I am missing some great and grand knowledge that everyone else knows and I do not) and am an Alchemist (with trinket equipped). I do have the Egg of Haste from badges, and in hopes of having Spirit-World Glass trinket to drop. So, I guess it boils down to is 6 less spirit (or 90 more Int) a use of 36 more spirit (or 300 more Int) against a chance on cast for five seconds less than the use trinket, but able to proc every 30 seconds. (Hope that made sense...)
Ideally you want intellect as the base stat, and you want to rearrange your gear such that you get a spirit proc. And yes, it's quite good.
I tried to search through the priest forum, but didnt find an answer/discussion on this topic, but:
Is my observation that Power Infusion overwrites Bloodlust correct? And thus actually decreases haste by 10% when applied to a person with Bloodlust? Is this intended/logical?
I tried to search through the priest forum, but didnt find an answer/discussion on this topic, but:
Is my observation that Power Infusion overwrites Bloodlust correct? And thus actually decreases haste by 10% when applied to a person with Bloodlust? Is this intended/logical?
PI does not overwrite Bloodlust/Heroism. The thing why you can cast it on bloodlusted people is that PI also reduces the mana cost by 20 %. So PIing a bloodlusted person still leaves them with 30 % less casting time but adds 20 % less mana cost (Definitely not worth doing it, of course. Never PI bloodlusted people but wait until it expires.)
I tested it on myself and I remember my GH casting time going up after using PI on myself. It was in a 10 man Naxx group, so I'll try again in a laboratory setting tonight. (I just realized that I might have forgotten that I still had borrowed time on the first cast)
What's the best strategy to use while healing Sapphiron.10 while disc? I kept PoM on cooldown as my top priority. I'd use PoH whenever it was needed and then kept to shielding and flashing when I couldn't do anything else. I kept the tank up as well but he didn't need much healing outside a penance+shield every once in a while. Am I gimping the raid by being disc specced on Sapphiron?
I did it last night, as one of three healers, but I suspect we could have done it with two easily once we got the positioning down. I'd second keeping PoM on cooldown; the difference in my healing total vs our holy priest can be completely explained by how much better he was than me at doing so. Is the problem you are finding throughput or mana?
I found that with people running every which way from blizzard, and getting caught myself, PoH was sometimes useful but usually not (I usually only cast it after the second ice block went off and I'd moved into position). I no longer use Greater Heal, and even if I did I probably wouldn't on this fight. The movement required is too high and people are taking lots of small chunks of damage (even Penance had 30% overheal, vs 19% overall). The key for me was hitting as many people as possible during the flight phase, to get them back up to the point where they could be healed the rest of the way later. As long as I was injured I used binding heal. I didn't focus primarily on Shielding, despite the predictable damage, since we had so much extra healing available during the ground phase. I suspect that if we'd had two healers that would have been the biggest difference.
The most important thing is for people not to stand in things. Until that happened the healing load felt absolutely overwhelming. Once they stopped getting tail swiped/standing in blizzard/standing in the middle when he takes off/dying to cleave the fight became easy and the fast, efficient healing from binding/flash/PoM didn't feel gimped at all.
I have recently made the conversion over to Disc, and have been trying to regem*, reequip myself for Naxx that I am starting this week. I have noticed during this process that my spirit is dropping way down, and hence my static mana regen (not including disc talents or replenishment).
I know I will find out more when I actually walk into Naxx this week, but I wanted to get some advice from other disc priests, that I am heading down the correct path.
* My gemming is kind of random as I haven't regemm'd all and I am kind of playing around with the blue ones. Not sure if I should just go straight spellpower after I get my one blue gem for meta.
Quick question on healing the Malygos encounter (Normal mode).
Last night I was the teamed up with a resto shaman and a holy pally. The only other times I've done Malygos I've had another AOE healer (Druid/Priest) so last night was the first time I encountered issues with the vortex. I found that I regularly had two people that were out of my range and received zero heals from my COH (could get a lucky POM bounce). The only way I worked around this was to use levitate after the vortex and COH/Surge of Light/PW:S those players on the way down.
Is there something obvious I'm missing? It worked out in the end but I'm wondering if there's something more I could have done.
Quick question on healing the Malygos encounter (Normal mode).
Last night I was the teamed up with a resto shaman and a holy pally. The only other times I've done Malygos I've had another AOE healer (Druid/Priest) so last night was the first time I encountered issues with the vortex. I found that I regularly had two people that were out of my range and received zero heals from my COH (could get a lucky POM bounce). The only way I worked around this was to use levitate after the vortex and COH/Surge of Light/PW:S those players on the way down.
Is there something obvious I'm missing? It worked out in the end but I'm wondering if there's something more I could have done.
Thanks in advance.
What we have done is have everyone stack before you get Vortexed. This seems to get rid of the range issue.
12/12/08, 11:57 AM
The fact that we know have optimum haste numbers.. valleys and peaks if you will is dumb.
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