I'm hoping this is the right place to post this question. I'm a shadow priest. I've done some reading, and have decided that I should drop martyrdom, because I do not do any PVP and do strictly dailies / quests / raids (I am however level 80). This frees up 2 talent points for me to play with. I was thinking on one of the following, which fortunately are all max 2 points:
Improved Power Word: Shield (Only 3 pointer), get a little bit of extra time out of it?
Improved Psychic Scream: It's just an idea...
Improved Vampiric Embrace: Can heal myself better in raids, so the healer doesn't have to focus on me?
Psychic Horror: Not sure how great this one is, but again it's just another idea.
What should I put the 2 points in, or should I keep martyrdom? If you can add a brief blurb to why that'd be great. If this is wrong forum please let me know!
Geminie being the top healer to benefit from replenishment. (overall mana, not ticks.) He has a higher HPS time (Compared to me) which would suggest consuming more mana, thus having an overall lower mana pool average. (More Replenishment ticks)
Only having 1 replenishment class, and having less mana on average made more of an impact as to the reason why he received more mana from replenishment, as opposed to having 3k-3.5k smaller mana pool.
In any event, I would still like to confirm if its looking at total mana vs. a persons individual percentage when calculating "10 people in the raid with the lowest mana"
It looks to me like replenisment is being applied based on total mana remaining and not percent mana remaining. If we look at the WWS report you linked and consider not total mana gained but the number of ticks recieved and the average size of those ticks (indicative of mana pool size) it becomes clear.
If it were based on total mana and not percent mana, then the Ret Pally, the Hunter that was there for the entire raid and the Enhancement Shaman should have basically 100% uptime on replenishment because their mana pools are so small - unless your casters are running OOM they wont spend much time below those hybrid mana levels. Looking at your WWS the top 3 in terms of ticks of replenisment and indeed the ret pally, the hunter and the enchanment shaman.
If it were based on percent mana remaining I would expect the distribution to be a little more even, although maybe the "spikiness" of those hybrids' mana pools could cause the disparity seen.
It just seems to really not value crit. It would also be interesting to hear how the incoming 6s CoH cooldown will change the stat weightings people plan to use.
It just seems to really not value crit. It would also be interesting to hear how the incoming 6s CoH cooldown will change the stat weightings people plan to use.
Intellect is far too high, and MP5 is should be at the lowest. Dwarfpriest.com has been wrong before and he/she is wrong again. The 'best' gear list that is listed there also has some pretty big flaws (like [Sympathy] being the best chest).
You need to gear yourself to be able to not worry about regen (this is the state I am at), once you hit that I personally prefer the following priority on stats:
The reason mp5 is rated so high is because there are fewer points of it. For example [Spire of Sunset] compared to [Staff of Restraint] are roughly the same usefulness, but the weights make the mp5 vs. the spirit a 23 vs. 45.36 point relationship. Makes sense to me.
In conclusion, according to Dwarfpriest, the [Spire of Sunset] is better (which I don't agree with,) but the [Staff of Restraint] would probably be a better choice due to the higher point values of haste gear vs. crit gear on other item pieces. Mp5 isn't worthless, it just isn't as 'wow!' as spirit is.
Intellect is far too high, and MP5 is should be at the lowest. Dwarfpriest.com has been wrong before and he/she is wrong again. The 'best' gear list that is listed there also has some pretty big flaws (like [Sympathy] being the best chest).
You need to gear yourself to be able to not worry about regen (this is the state I am at), once you hit that I personally prefer the following priority on stats:
I'm think you're wrong about mp5. Want to provide any math? Point for point, you get more regen from mp5 than either int or spirit, and int and spirit are roughly comparable in terms of regen. Rather than go through the math again, see Constantius' excellent post here.
The reason nobody likes mp5 isn't because it's not a strong stat, but because it's a very expensive stat.
Edit: Beaten. Incidentally, I agree with Siegfried that the [Staff of Restraint] is better than [Spire of Sunset], although the difference is quite small. The problem with Dwarfpriests stat weights is that the value of stats changes based on your gear, talents, and healing style. It's not as bad for healers as it is for tanks and DPS classes (who have stat caps), but it still means "one size fits all" stat weights are going to be rough guidelines at best. The best bet is to actually do the math via a spreadsheet or the ever nifty Rawr tool.
I'm thinking about trying out Hyperspeed accelerator on my Holy Priest as my haste is only about 7 % atm. Would you say its worth the loss of spellpower? I'd probably make a /use macro combined with GH
Prayer of Mending: Will now only benefit from the healing talents of the priest who cast the original spell.
Can anyone venture a guess at what that means?
There is a well documented bug in the holy theorycrafting thread that basically occurs when you have a disc and a holy priest in the same raid. If the disc priest has an active prayer of mending that is overwritten by the holy priest's prayer of mending, and then the holy priest's PoM crits, it can give the disc priest the instant-cast no-crit flash heal buff. I think there are some other procy buffs that have been proccing the same way.
Can anyone share what Deep Holy stat weighting they use currently?
I've been using this:
Spell Power
1
Stamina
1
Intellect
2.2
Spirit
2.6
Mp5
5.2
Haste
3
Crit
6
Making crit that high sometimes leads to some funky results; but then, once your gear is to the level where you're not going OOM every fight, might as well stack the healing output stats.
I also don't follow the results blindly, I try to keep my Haste above 9%, even if it means taking a lower-valued item.
I'm think you're wrong about mp5. Want to provide any math? Point for point, you get more regen from mp5 than either int or spirit, and int and spirit are roughly comparable in terms of regen. Rather than go through the math again, see Constantius' excellent post here.
The reason nobody likes mp5 isn't because it's not a strong stat, but because it's a very expensive stat.
I'm not wrong about mp5. It is a subpar stat because it doesn't scale. 10 mp5 will always be 10 mp5 in any situation, casting or not, innervated or not. It doesn't scale with raid buffs.
What math do you want me to show you?
Take a loot at my armory, I have very high regen and when buffed seen numbers of ~1500+/600+. Combine that with mana spring totems (~106 mp5, it stacks and we put 2 shamans in our healing group so ~212 mp5), Blessing of Wisdom (~109 mp5), Replenishment (~275 mp5) and you get numbers of around 1000mp5 while casting. Trust me, I don't need anymore regen so mp5 is utterly useless to me. Throughput is what matters and thus I value my stats as I posted above.
Haste vs. Crit for disc healing.
In Const's second post for the Healing compendium he lays out a nice set of gear for deep holy priests.
One thing I notice is that those choices seem to value haste by a large margin. As disc, I am unclear as to the strength of that stat. Const's benchmarks make a lot of sense for Holy priests who use GH and don't have the benefit of Borrowed time or enlightenment or penance for that matter. (Though i suppose the mere fact that we want to try and squeeze more spells in any given time duration means that even the gcd effect makes haste worthwhile.)
I guess I had viewed crit > haste for disc, while most of the gear on const's gear post seems to value haste higher. Should I be valuing haste as equal to or more valuable than crit? (Sinndir's stat weights certainly seems to value haste more than crit.) Crit heals proc more DA which in turn means an increase in total throughput. Though of course, holy uses crit for SoL procs and Holy Concentration as well.
Haste vs. Crit for disc healing.
In Const's second post for the Healing compendium he lays out a nice set of gear for deep holy priests.
One thing I notice is that those choices seem to value haste by a large margin. As disc, I am unclear as to the strength of that stat. Const's benchmarks make a lot of sense for Holy priests who use GH and don't have the benefit of Borrowed time or enlightenment or penance for that matter. (Though i suppose the mere fact that we want to try and squeeze more spells in any given time duration means that even the gcd effect makes haste worthwhile.)
I guess I had viewed crit > haste for disc, while most of the gear on const's gear post seems to value haste higher. Should I be valuing haste as equal to or more valuable than crit? (Sinndir's stat weights certainly seems to value haste more than crit.) Crit heals proc more DA which in turn means an increase in total throughput. Though of course, holy uses crit for SoL procs and Holy Concentration as well.
Crit is very good for Holy, I just don't prefer it. As I have stated before, I don't need regen and I find crit to be more of a regen stat than a throughput. Do I have a bunch of crit pieces? Damn straight because I know there will be fights or situations where I do plenty of Greater Healing and IHC proccing is phenomenal.
Surge of Light also is just not that good I keep finding
Crit is very good for Holy, I just don't prefer it. As I have stated before, I don't need regen and I find crit to be more of a regen stat than a throughput. Do I have a bunch of crit pieces? Damn straight because I know there will be fights or situations where I do plenty of Greater Healing and IHC proccing is phenomenal.
Surge of Light also is just not that good I keep finding
His post was more about Disc weighting than Holy.
For Discipline we already get 5% haste from talents and another 25% on Borrowed Time. Without trying you're going to end up with 15% haste in a raid before BT is even factored in. We also have Power Infusion to use during burst/enrage situations if we desire. On top of that, your main spells are Power Word: Shield, Flash Heal and Penance. None of these benefit from haste a great deal (although lowering the GCD is useful). Crit will not only increase returns from Rapture (assuming no overheal) but it also results in Divine Aegis. It basically is an excellent stat for regen, throughput AND preventive healing for Discipline by way of DA. I can't really imagine any Disc Priest weighting haste over crit because of all this.
It basically is an excellent stat for regen, throughput AND preventive healing for Discipline by way of DA. I can't really imagine any Disc Priest weighting haste over crit because of all this.
I agree and would add that DA procs are very friendly in a multihealer environment because they are relatively immune to overhealing. So even if you lose a heal to overhealing, if it crits then 30% of it is "saved" from overhealing as a DA shield. This sets up a situation where more crit potentially leads to less wasted healing from overhealing, which is possibly counterintuitive.
Unfortunately, it's very easy to undervalue the benefit of DA shields because there is currently no easy way to measure their effect -- i.e. they don't show up in the commonly used meters at all.
I'm not wrong about mp5. It is a subpar stat because it doesn't scale. 10 mp5 will always be 10 mp5 in any situation, casting or not, innervated or not. It doesn't scale with raid buffs.
What math do you want me to show you?
Take a loot at my armory, I have very high regen and when buffed seen numbers of ~1500+/600+. Combine that with mana spring totems (~106 mp5, it stacks and we put 2 shamans in our healing group so ~212 mp5), Blessing of Wisdom (~109 mp5), Replenishment (~275 mp5) and you get numbers of around 1000mp5 while casting. Trust me, I don't need anymore regen so mp5 is utterly useless to me. Throughput is what matters and thus I value my stats as I posted above.
Right, right, scaling. Sure. So let's look at int, quoting directly from the post I already linked you...
1 intellect = 0.1875 Mp5 (Replenishment)
1 intellect = 0.208 Mp5 (6 minute fight, mana pool size)
That works out to 0.7865 Mp5 per point of int. Add the effect of kings and we get 0.86515 Mp5 per point of int. On the other hand, Mp5 gives 1 Mp5 per point of Mp5 (I know, it surprised me too). So, yeah, I'd say you ARE wrong about Mp5. Point for point it is a very powerful regen stat, weakened only slightly by the fact that it doesn't scale.
Your argument about "not needing more regen" is fine, but not really helpful when constructing stat weights. And, notably, you don't appear to be following your own advice - for example, your weapon is enchanted with Spirit, not Spellpower. Since the only throughput effect of the spirit enchant is roughly 13 spell power, that choice doesn't make a lot of sense unless regen isn't actually worthless for you - in which case we come back to "how can I give up the smallest amount of throughput to get the regen I need?", and the answer is "by valuing regen stats properly". And in that case, mp5 isn't worthless.
Unfortunately, it's very easy to undervalue the benefit of DA shields because there is currently no easy way to measure their effect -- i.e. they don't show up in the commonly used meters at all.
When you say "commonly used meters", that implies that there are uncommonly used meters that do track absorption. Do you know of one?
Right, right, scaling. Sure. So let's look at int, quoting directly from the post I already linked you...
That works out to 0.7865 Mp5 per point of int. Add the effect of kings and we get 0.86515 Mp5 per point of int. On the other hand, Mp5 gives 1 Mp5 per point of Mp5 (I know, it surprised me too). So, yeah, I'd say you ARE wrong about Mp5. Point for point it is a very powerful regen stat, weakened only slightly by the fact that it doesn't scale.
Your argument about "not needing more regen" is fine, but not really helpful when constructing stat weights. And, notably, you don't appear to be following your own advice - for example, your weapon is enchanted with Spirit, not Spellpower. Since the only throughput effect of the spirit enchant is roughly 13 spell power, that choice doesn't make a lot of sense unless regen isn't actually worthless for you - in which case we come back to "how can I give up the smallest amount of throughput to get the regen I need?", and the answer is "by valuing regen stats properly". And in that case, mp5 isn't worthless.
Sigh, I'm going to stop replying to you soon if you don't look at my gear in total.
I've had the same staff since our first Naxx-10 run and have had very unlucky drops/or passed the better items (read: Torch KT 25) to other healers because I don't 'need' them. Thus, I still have spirit. I'm not going to drop an absurd amount of money on an enchant I'm just going to replace, but when I do get a great weapon... you guessed it +63 spellpower is going on it.
I don't need more regen, if you have read any of my other posts you would see me say that before. Please stop trying to troll and just realize that mp5 is our weakest stat.
Assuming 1000 spirit is very poor; as is 6 minute fights (we had 3 last naxx and that was with bad server lag), my armor shows 1148 spirit unbuffed and fully raid buffed I'm over 1400. Thus, for both reasons, the value of the intellect is higher. Anyways, if you'd like to continue talking about this you can PM me.
Originally Posted by Promethia
-snip-
Unfortunately, it's very easy to undervalue the benefit of DA shields because there is currently no easy way to measure their effect -- i.e. they don't show up in the commonly used meters at all.
Promethia, do you know a way of finding the sources of the total DA procs throughout the night via WWS? (and/or perhaps a way of discerning which PW:Shield are from which priest?)
Is there really still nothing that can track this? The combat log tracks it, perhaps it is on WWS' end?
Is there really still nothing that can track this? The combat log tracks it, perhaps it is on WWS' end?
The combat log can track someone gaining DA or PWS (Check abilities in WWS), but there is no way to tell the source of any absorb effects. You can do some rough math for contributions this way, but it isn't remotely definitive.
I don't need more regen, if you have read any of my other posts you would see me say that before. Please stop trying to troll and just realize that mp5 is our weakest stat.
Assuming 1000 spirit is very poor; as is 6 minute fights (we had 3 last naxx and that was with bad server lag), my armor shows 1148 spirit unbuffed and fully raid buffed I'm over 1400. Thus, for both reasons, the value of the intellect is higher.
Your math is still wrong, and you've missed my point entirely. The goal is to get sufficient regen (which, as you've stated so repeatedly, you have) by giving up the minimum amount of throughput. Even with the assumptions you make, mp5 is not - point for point - a Holy priest's weakest stat, and advising people to treat it as worthless does people who read your posts a disservice.
(And that'll be my last post on the matter too. If you still don't understand the math, I recommend reading the really excellent information in the WotLK Healing Compendium, which covers this in detail.)
In my guild there are 3 active holy priests (incl. me) 2 of them are deep holy, and I got Divine Spirit to buff the raid.
Priests, druids, locks really benefit from +spirit. But because I have DS I only got 50 points in holy.
What is more valuable for the raid? Me improving other healers? Or just improving myself?
And... how good is Guardian Spirit (ever since WotLK I have been 21/50/0, so I don't know)
In my guild there are 3 active holy priests (incl. me) 2 of them are deep holy, and I got Divine Spirit to buff the raid.
Priests, druids, locks really benefit from +spirit. But because I have DS I only got 50 points in holy.
What is more valuable for the raid? Me improving other healers? Or just improving myself?
And... how good is Guardian Spirit (ever since WotLK I have been 21/50/0, so I don't know)
I'm a Shadow Priest and pretty much always have been, so my experience with it might be a bit limited, but the biggest use I've seen for Guardian Spirit in the current t7 content has been for Sarth+3 drakes where you want to have a rotation of "saves" for your tank during breaths while Vesperon+Shadron+their disciples are up.
The Holy Paladins at least seem to bring 1 save each as does each Holy Paladins with Guardian Spirit or each Disc Priest with Pain Suppression.
The more of them you have the more leeway your DPS has to kill Shadron before the tank dies, but if you've got so many Priests that raid (and I assume you have some Paladins) then it's possible you might not really need it yourself.
01/05/09, 8:41 PM
Similar Threads
