On the other hand, Mp5 gives 1 Mp5 per point of Mp5 (I know, it surprised me too). So, yeah, I'd say you ARE wrong about Mp5. Point for point it is a very powerful regen stat, weakened only slightly by the fact that it doesn't scale.
You cannot compare mp5 to spirit just like that because one point of each has a different cost in the item budget. 1 item point buys you 1 spirit, it only buys you 0,4 mp5 though.
Thus, point for point it is a very powerful regen stat, but as 1 spirit doesn't cost the same as 1 mp5, chances are you will benefit far more regen wise with an item that invests its points in spirit rather than in mp5. And there's the added benefit of increasing spellpower too (if you have the talent Spiritual guidance).
Last edited by Suhné : 01/08/09 at 7:33 AM.
Reason: clarification about spellpower benefit
I'm a Shadow Priest and pretty much always have been, so my experience with it might be a bit limited, but the biggest use I've seen for Guardian Spirit in the current t7 content has been for Sarth+3 drakes where you want to have a rotation of "saves" for your tank during breaths while Vesperon+Shadron+their disciples are up.
The Holy Paladins at least seem to bring 1 save each as does each Holy Paladins with Guardian Spirit or each Disc Priest with Pain Suppression.
The more of them you have the more leeway your DPS has to kill Shadron before the tank dies, but if you've got so many Priests that raid (and I assume you have some Paladins) then it's possible you might not really need it yourself.
At the moment, we're killing all the dragons, so you awnsered my question. In Naxx I never felt I needed it
In my guild there are 3 active holy priests (incl. me) 2 of them are deep holy, and I got Divine Spirit to buff the raid.
Priests, druids, locks really benefit from +spirit. But because I have DS I only got 50 points in holy.
What is more valuable for the raid? Me improving other healers? Or just improving myself?
And... how good is Guardian Spirit (ever since WotLK I have been 21/50/0, so I don't know)
If you're running 3 healing priests and druids+warlocks+shadow priests, having at least 21 in Disc makes perfect sense, and should be done. Guardian Spirit is good, no denying it, but it's situational. Better to have a raid buff that matters (and in 3.0.8, mages will request it as well) than to have a 3rd GS that you may never use.
Of course, ideally one of the priests goes 54/17/0 or some variant and is a pure tank healer, but if you want the power of CoH (even post-nerf, it's great), three holy priests is fine.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
Right, right, scaling. Sure. So let's look at int, quoting directly from the post I already linked you...
That works out to 0.7865 Mp5 per point of int. Add the effect of kings and we get 0.86515 Mp5 per point of int. On the other hand, Mp5 gives 1 Mp5 per point of Mp5 (I know, it surprised me too). So, yeah, I'd say you ARE wrong about Mp5. Point for point it is a very powerful regen stat, weakened only slightly by the fact that it doesn't scale.
Except that 1 point of mp5 is worth 2.5 times as much on an item as 1 point of intellect. So, point for point, intellect is twice as good as mp5, because 0.4 mp5 is worth as much as 1 intellect on an item.
Reword your statement, and I think it's correct *squint*.
What you meant to say is ...
1 point of Mp5 costs 2.5x as much (in ilvl point allocation) as 1 point of intellect. So, point for point, intellect is ~ 2x as good as Mp5, because the ilvl cost makes 1 intellect equal to 0.4 Mp5.
I think.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
I just want to throw out my stat preference as a disc priest since i haven't seen too much of a discussion on disc itemization.
Does this sound right?
1) Int
2) Spell power
3) Crit
4) Spirit + Mp/5- I imagine they are roughly the same as per Const's post.
5) Haste
obviously these are not absolute.
I think the goal is for raid buffed values of
2500 Spell Power
1500 Intellect Buffed. (Mana pool of about 24-25000)
about 1100 Spirit or Mp5 while casting equivalent to about 600mp5.
Crit- 27% holy.
any degree of haste above 10%.
I've noticed a lot of people ordering stats in the preference they want them for their build. Which is nice and everything, but it's completely meaningless without numerical weights.
Reword your statement, and I think it's correct *squint*.
What you meant to say is ...
1 point of Mp5 costs 2.5x as much (in ilvl point allocation) as 1 point of intellect. So, point for point, intellect is ~ 2x as good as Mp5, because the ilvl cost makes 1 intellect equal to 0.4 Mp5.
I think.
1 point of mp5 is "worth" 2.5 times as much as 1 point of intellect in ilvl value, yes. I should have clarified that.
Hi there, could anyone put together some item weights for me? I am currently level 78 and would like to make a list of the best items available pre-raid for me. But I'm kinda confused because in the big healing thread it says that int > spirit and that crit rating is very good. But all item weights I can find (including the one at dwarfpriest.com) has spirit weighing more than intellect and crit very very low.
I guess it's hard to make a perfect weighing scale for healing, but could someone aim me in the right directon for gearing up for raids in dungeon heroics? Is there a good "best pre raid holy gear available"-list somewhere that I have missed?
Preraid, get every piece you can with spirit on it. There may be a few epics with no spirit, but all the blues you get should have spirit. [Runecaster's Mantle] is a great example. Yeah, it has not crit or haste, but it has regen, which is what you should aim for. Once you have regen, replace those pieces with no crit or haste with Naxx/Sarth/Malygos gear. Pretty easy. :-)
Personally, I think relative weighting is misleading.
When I "rank" my stats what i am doing is ranking what I think needs to be done first in order to best do my job.
So for instance, as a baby 80 disc, I considered of HUGE importance to increase my mana pool and regen. This is why Intellect was so big. Spirit and Mp5 were not as large of a consideration for me as a Disc priest since I don't have as much o5SR regen, and INT would be the easiest to improve. Next of course would be total throughput, and Spellpower addresses that the best in terms of basic output.
The other rankings are essentially, "how do i choose between Item A and B when Int and Spellpower are relatively equal?"
What i find the most helpful in terms of gearing is figuring what my benchmarks are first, and then working towards them.
When you say "commonly used meters", that implies that there are uncommonly used meters that do track absorption. Do you know of one?
I do not know of even an uncommonly used one, no. I used the "commonly used meters" phrased simply because I can't exclude the possibility of an uncommon meter out there that does track absorb damage. I don't follow the latest mods very closely, so I might not know about it. Sorry for any confusion.
Originally Posted by Nurru
The combat log can track someone gaining DA or PWS (Check abilities in WWS), but there is no way to tell the source of any absorb effects. You can do some rough math for contributions this way, but it isn't remotely definitive.
Originally Posted by Sinndir
Promethia, do you know a way of finding the sources of the total DA procs throughout the night via WWS? (and/or perhaps a way of discerning which PW:Shield are from which priest?)
Is there really still nothing that can track this? The combat log tracks it, perhaps it is on WWS' end?
WWS doesn't do it at all, and I don't know of anything currently available. I have been using a combination of a database, spreadsheet, and a custom C# combat log parser to look at that myself, but it's a very slow and tedious process. I am currently working on a ~500,000 line parse of a naxx 25, but I don't have a quick method of summarizing results yet.
However, it is possible to sort out the source of the absorb events -- at least I have not yet run into a case where it was truely impossible to figure out whose shield absorbed what. There is at most one PW:S and one DA shield buff active on any given target, and the combat log records who the buffs come from.
The vast majority of the time, there's only one shield buff up from one source, so it's not hard then. Very rarely you may have a DA shield from one player and a PW:S from another. If you then see that the target absorbs xxx damage, then you don't immediately know which shield did it. However, one can generally figure it out by looking further on in the log. If someone has a case where they think it's impossible to tell, I'd be interested in seeing it, but such cases are rare enough that they would probably not have a significant effect on any metrics.
1 point of Mp5 costs 2.5x as much (in ilvl point allocation) as 1 point of intellect. So, point for point, intellect is ~ 2x as good as Mp5, because the ilvl cost makes 1 intellect equal to 0.4 Mp5.
In the context of item weights (which is what the entire string of posts has been about), that's not correct. Item weights are (theoretically) supposed to tell you how good an item would be for you. If I'm comparing two rings which are identical except one has 20 mp5 and the other has 20 spirit, the question I'd want answered is "which should I equip?". Using the assumptions in the Compendium, even for a Holy priest the answer is "the one with mp5", which is why mp5 has a larger item weight than spirit. Thus, point for point, mp5 is better than spirit.
It's also true that the ring with 20 mp5 must have a much larger item budget, probably comes from a much higher tier of loot, and would be a vastly better ring (at least for Holy; it'd be a closer question for Disc) if it had been itemized with the roughly 50 spirit it could have had instead of mp5. Thus, mp5 is a terrible stat.
Edit: Constantius - true, it's a very artificial example since gear decisions are rarely so clear cut - as you point out if the ring with mp5 had a higher ilvl it probably has more of all the other stats too. Bleh. I've still changed the example to be between spirit and mp5. That's rather more likely, and illustrates the point better I think.
Originally Posted by rooj
I just want to throw out my stat preference as a disc priest since i haven't seen too much of a discussion on disc itemization.
Does this sound right?
1) Int
2) Spell power
3) Crit
4) Spirit + Mp/5- I imagine they are roughly the same as per Const's post.
5) Haste
In general, int and mp5 are your best regen stats. If you're running out of mana, they should be prioritized at the top. Spirit is terrible, even if you desperatly need regen. If mana isn't a concern, then you'll probably want to boost throughput. In your case, you'd probably do that by prioritizing spell power, haste, and crit - probably in that order, at your gear level.
One useful tool for answering this sort of question is Rawr. Taking your gear and spec, some fairly typical raid buffs and consumables, assuming 90% spent in FSR, 6m fight, having Replenishment for 80% of the time, and assuming a tank healer role using GH to fill the gaps, Rawr spits out:
Int - 2.63
MP5 - 2.26
Spell Power - 1.96
Haste - 1.62
Crit - 1.48
Spirit - 0.83
You could usefully use those as stat weights, but they (obviously) are assuming you do need more mana. If that's not true, you won't get very good results without tweaking them a bit.
Last edited by Lazare : 01/09/09 at 1:12 AM.
Reason: Changed to using spirit as my example
In the context of item weights (which is what the entire string of posts has been about), that's not correct. Item weights are (theoretically) supposed to tell you how good an item would be for you. If I'm comparing two rings which are identical except one has 20 mp5 and the other has 20 int, the question I'd want answered is "which should I equip?". Using the assumptions in the Compendium, the answer is "the one with mp5", which is why mp5 has a larger item weight than int. Thus, point for point, mp5 is better than int.
It's also true that the ring with 20 mp5 must have a much larger item budget, probably comes from a much higher tier of loot, and would be a vastly better ring if it had been itemized with the roughly 50 int it could have had instead of mp5. Thus, mp5 is a terrible stat.
Except that this is a horrible argument, because items for cloth-wearing casters don't exist without Intellect on them. Not in a context we'd ever wear, anyway. Every single item we equip can be *assumed* to have Stamina, Intellect, and Spellpower in commensurate values to the ilvl of the item. It's a question of how much crit, spirit, haste, and Mp5 are on an item.
The context comes in basically when comparing the delta intellect. For example, say I have one item with 30 spirit and 30 intellect, and another with 25 intellect and 15 Mp5. The -5 intellect has to count against the item, and you don't just compare spirit vs Mp5.
Really, this is almost *never* a question of item choice at all, but rather of gemming. It's rare for us to be able to look at an item and deliberately "choose" a high intellect version. The only exception seems to be weapons, where using a staff enables us to stack intellect & spirit much higher than is possible on MH/OH (at the cost of, obviously, spellpower).
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
Our guild just started 25 man naxx, and we just ended our 2nd night on the last wing with our first Patchwerk kill. We ended up bringing in 2 extra healers for 8 total. Gimped the dps a lot, but killed him with a few seconds to spare. I Disc heal.
Q's:
1. 2 OTs just seems wrong, is the 2nd just a crutch? With 6x healers, wouldnt a better assignment be to set 4x on a single OT and 2x on MT? Then its just the job of the 4 good healers to keep OT health up so melee doesnt take a hateful. On paper, this seems easier to me, but is that easy to do in reality? (Does it really matter, as it will be trivial in another couple weeks???)
2. Are tossing HOTs a complete waste of time on this fight (except druid rolling hots)? As a disc priest, i didnt waste a GCD on anything but PWS, Pennance and FH for this fight.
Our guild just started 25 man naxx, and we just ended our 2nd night on the last wing with our first Patchwerk kill. We ended up bringing in 2 extra healers for 8 total. Gimped the dps a lot, but killed him with a few seconds to spare. I Disc heal.
Q's:
1. 2 OTs just seems wrong, is the 2nd just a crutch? With 6x healers, wouldnt a better assignment be to set 4x on a single OT and 2x on MT? Then its just the job of the 4 good healers to keep OT health up so melee doesnt take a hateful. On paper, this seems easier to me, but is that easy to do in reality? (Does it really matter, as it will be trivial in another couple weeks???)
2. Are tossing HOTs a complete waste of time on this fight (except druid rolling hots)? As a disc priest, i didnt waste a GCD on anything but PWS, Pennance and FH for this fight.
Thanks
1: Until you get to the point where your tank can take a hateful and still be >25k health every time, you *will* need that second OT in there. Unless you have healers keeping their casts desynchronised in order to guarantee the tank gets a heal between one HS and the next, but that's far more difficult than just throwing a second OT up there with one healer for the odd HS that slips through.
If you're looking to optimise your raid, I'd recommend looking at the number of healers first. 8 healers is 2 more than is probably ideal for Patch (and we did our third kill (I think) with 5 healers).
2: Renew is a poor spell to be using in nearly any circumstance these days, especially when throughput is a factor. Speaking of throughput, was there a reason you were using FH instead of GH?
DeeNogger: "No dot timer? Get your belt off, its spanking time."
I wouldn't say Renew is a poor spell when throughput is a factor; you have to remember Renew can be casted during periods when throughput is not a factor but it still will be up when you do need throughput. Renew can help your burst throughput. However, in this case your Penance / Power Word: Shield / Flash Heal really should be all the thoroughput you need. I'd say it doesn't hurt to cast Prayer of Mending either; especially since it can bounce to other tanks and put up Inspiration/DA.
Also, he's not using Greater Heal because he's a Disc priest and there's little point to use Greater Heal as Disc (there aren't enough talents to buff it).
Our second kill of Patchwerks was 1 Tank, 0 OT... well 0 melee all together... with 1 Disc Priest, 2 Holy Priests and 2 Resto Druids healing the Feral Druid tanking.
Oh and a Ret Paladin running around pretending to be useful...
(Yeah, there's a funny story... about 30 seconds in to the fight; all melee including both OT end up dead, except for the Ret Paladin... All healers just reacted by spamming the feral druid and all was well).
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Lately I've started picking up lots of Spellpower and Haste on my Priest, gladly trading out Crit, MP5 and Spirit. My DPS has begun soaring, and granted, I'm only level seventy three, I love almost a one second cast on Vampiric Touch/Mind Blast.
However, plenty of people are insisting that Crit > Haste. So, I decided to seek y'alls' advice.
In the eyes of ElitistJerks, which is better for a level Priest, Crit or Haste?
Lately I've started picking up lots of Spellpower and Haste on my Priest, gladly trading out Crit, MP5 and Spirit. My DPS has begun soaring, and granted, I'm only level seventy three, I love almost a one second cast on Vampiric Touch/Mind Blast.
However, plenty of people are insisting that Crit > Haste. So, I decided to seek y'alls' advice.
In the eyes of ElitistJerks, which is better for a level Priest, Crit or Haste?
Edit: I'm Shadow.
For leveling I'd take Crit over Haste. Haste fucks your sustainability (more mana you go through in the same time) while Crit does not and provides imp. Spirit Tap.
Anyways, as long as you're able to quest aka kill normal mobs, you should be fine.
Last edited by gsman20 : 01/09/09 at 9:30 AM.
Reason: Clarification
Also, he's not using Greater Heal because he's a Disc priest and there's little point to use Greater Heal as Disc (there aren't enough talents to buff it).
I believe you'll find that even for disc, GH has significantly higher HPS than FH (~25% or so, according to Rawr, which looks right). FH has a lot of advantages (cheap, fast, less overheal, better rapture returns, more flexibility), but if you want raw throughput, GH is still better - even for disc. (That's assuming 5/5 Divine Fury, but that's in the cookie cutter spec.)
My problem with using GHeal isn't comparing it to FH, but rather to penance. The only time i would cast GH is when a) big throughput is necessary, b) i have BT up, and c) Penance is on cooldown. Those conditions are not often all met at the same time esp since penance's cooldown is pretty low.
Since Penance does not consume BT, you should actually do PW:S, Penance, GH which causes GH to be still hastened.
Actually you should always do such a sequence when Cooldowns/Debuff timer allows. As soon as you cast Penance after PW:S you should decide wheter you follow up with a FH or rather use a GH.
Or how exactly do you spend your BT after Penance ? It's the perfect sequence to use a slow spell afterwards. You can even do PW:S on a random member if you really want to have BT up. While that is seldom useful in boss fights, I started to shield myself before I resurrect someone, especially if I have to run into range first as it really has a noticeable effect on the 10 second basetime resurrection.
My problem with using GHeal isn't comparing it to FH, but rather to penance. The only time i would cast GH is when a) big throughput is necessary, b) i have BT up, and c) Penance is on cooldown. Those conditions are not often all met at the same time esp since penance's cooldown is pretty low.
Out of curiosity, why did you pick up the shadow t7.25 mantle? Was it an archavon drop?
I picked up the mantle because at the time I was shadow. It wasn't until later that week that I respec'd to be disc. (And i spec'd disc primarily because the gear transition from dps was much easier). I have almost enough Valor tokens to get the heal shoulders soon. I plan on keeping valor shoulders and pants, and replacing chest and gloves with more disc items so i can keep 2 piece bonus.
I am very much still learning to be a healer after dpsing for so long. (Warlock in vanilla, and SP in TBC).
I do agree that BT > Penance> Any other cast time spell is the way to go. I was just pointing out that usually after a penance, the big throughput spell isn't usually necessary. I often find myself topping off a dps/OT or fellow healer with a FH at that point. This may not be the case if we ran with less healers. We just finished 25 Man Naxx this week (with an average of 5-6 healers), and I am sure once we start paring down a couple of healers I may have to change my heal style, in which case, GH may start to be needed.
(Incidentally, last night on a 10 Man Naxx run, where I was assigned to heal the MCd tanks, I did in fact use GH much more since the throughput was necessary.)
Out of curiosity, why did you pick up the shadow t7.25 mantle? Was it an archavon drop?
Sorry to digress, but I'm pretty sure archavon only drops gloves, robes or pants.
Also, have you guys seen these latest patch note changes on mmo-champion?
# [Spark of Life] now only proc from healing or damaging spells.
# [Forge Ember] now only proc from healing or damaging spells.
I assume this means that buffs or debuffs no longer trigger these, but what about Power Word: Shield, or Prayer of Mending? Has anyone tested these changes on the PTR?
01/08/09, 5:56 AM
Similar Threads
