This means it is absolutely safe to do PS at start of a boss fight. As for the API, I can see the 5% effective drop, what I am unsure of seeing is the 5% reduced threat generation during duration of the buff. Hmmm unless there is a threat generation ability that a tank can use that is a known constant threat. I'll have to ask my guild tanks.
With my current gear and spec (CoH+GS, 17/54/0), Rawr.HolyPriest set to Auto Raid is telling me that spellpower has a significant component of "HPS-Sustained" (blue bar), which I suspect is pretty close to "regen."
How does spellpower help regen? The only thing I can think of is Serendipity. I'm baffled.
It doesn't help regen, but it does increase your HpS. Accordingly, it increases your sustainable HpS, since assuming static regen, more spellpower = more throughput = more HpS = more sustainable HpS. If you can sustain 5000 HpS with a certain level of regen, and you gain 200 spellpower, you can then do ~ 5200 HpS (numbers completely made up, YMMV, no guarantees given, all warranties void when package opened).
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
I'd like to know a little more about what you guys think about trinkets as regards to holy priests. There's been some discussion about some scenarios and some specific trinkets, but I'm curious on a more overall scale.
1) What is your ideal combination of two trinkets? If you had all the trinkets, which would you use by default?
1A) Assuming that either Je'Tze's Bell and/or Greatness are in there, what would it be without those two relatively difficult to acquire trinkets? That is, say, only specific instance boss drops, Naxx, OS, Malygos.
2) If you had all available trinkets, in which situations would you use which set? Say, Patchwerk vs Malygos vs Sarth+3 vs Kel'Thuzad, which I think of as exercising different priest strengths.
For discussion's sake, here is a list of what I consider to be interesting holy priest trinkets, in rough order
Obviously, some are more useful in certain situations than others, but what do you find yourself using more often in general? That is, is there anything in that ordering where you think a lower item would be more useful than a higher item?
Yknow, I've seen the Illustration of the Dragon Soul pop up on a lot of these lists, and I'm wondering if I'm missing something. While it's unparalleled as a throughput trinket, it offers nothing in terms of regen.
The Soul of the Dead is very strong. It returned 5400 mana to me yesterday on a 6 min fight, which is about 75 mp5, not counting the passive crit bonus.
I personally would put the Dragon Soul below both the Majestic Dragon and the Soul of the Dead, without even factoring in the fact that you'll have to go through all your casters to get the Illustration.
I'll have to give it a try on our raids this week, see how it feels. It just doesn't seem stronger than SWG or the Owl. Perhaps I'll try it over the SWG and try to get some numbers for myself.
The Illustration is just flat out throughput, yes. There's plenty of fights where I just don't need more regen. There's times where I simply need to be hitting hard when I'm able to, for short intense fights. Picking it up will likely have to wait, with the casters' interest in it, it's true.
How much more healing output should a Holy Priest have ahead of a Disc Priest if I were to look at a WWS, assuming similar gear/skill? Basically I have no idea how to judge performance for our Disc Priest but the numbers I'm seeing are terribly low, I just don't know how much of an impact the Disc spells that don't show up as healing on WWS impact that (bubbles, etc).
Shit I might as well post it. She already left the guild, but this would be helpful if we have any more Disc apps, so I have a better understanding of the spec and how to judge performance.
How much more healing output should a Holy Priest have ahead of a Disc Priest if I were to look at a WWS, assuming similar gear/skill? Basically I have no idea how to judge performance for our Disc Priest but the numbers I'm seeing are terribly low, I just don't know how much of an impact the Disc spells that don't show up as healing on WWS impact that (bubbles, etc).
Shit I might as well post it. She already left the guild, but this would be helpful if we have any more Disc apps, so I have a better understanding of the spec and how to judge performance.
For starters, she has points in Reflective Shield which has no PvE benefit and requires sacrificing good points somewhere else. I'd say she was casting Prayer of Healing too much, but I don't know what your healing strategies are. She isn't casting PWS enough judging by only 170 Glyph procs over the course of the whole night. She should be using that almost every time the 4 seconds are up, especially on encounters like Sapphiron and Loatheb. Penance seems to be underutilized as well, but in an instance as easy as Naxx there are many cases where it's simply not needed.
A Disc breakdown is usually going to look something like: Flash Heal, Penance / Prayer of Mending. Binding Heal / Prayer of Healing for the breakdown.
For starters, she has points in Reflective Shield which has no PvE benefit and requires sacrificing good points somewhere else. I'd say she was casting Prayer of Healing too much, but I don't know what your healing strategies are. She isn't casting PWS enough judging by only 170 Glyph procs over the course of the whole night. She should be using that almost every time the 4 seconds are up, especially on encounters like Sapphiron and Loatheb. Penance seems to be underutilized as well, but in an instance as easy as Naxx there are many cases where it's simply not needed.
A Disc breakdown is usually going to look something like: Flash Heal, Penance / Prayer of Mending. Binding Heal / Prayer of Healing for the breakdown.
That list is pretty much right on, penance is huge, a lot of times I'll drop it on the tank even if they don't need a ton of healing just to keep grace up. Shield should be used whenever it is up with every 3rd going toward the main tank to keep weakened soul on them as much as possible.
I run the heals for our raids and am typically on the MT, even seeing that their heals (at least until the patch when CoH changes) are going to be significantly lower than a Holy priests, the reason for that is that Disc priests are as much about preventing damage as they are about healing it. Look for glyph procs for shield, look for grace buffs on the raid and look for divine aegis procs. I think I added it up out of a lark and for a night where I only showed 2.4mil on WWS i totalled over 4.3 if you included the damage I prevented.
It's very hard to compare trinkets in a vacuum. Even if you know you want a regen trinket, say, knowing how good Soul of the Dead is is hard without knowing how much crit vs haste you have.
So the following is just my personal preferences for 3.0.8, i.e. post CoH cooldown. (For what it's worth, we usually run 1 CoH (me), 2 resto shaman, and 2-3 holy paladins, with sometimes a prot paladin pretending to help heal. Also if needed I can usually get one if not two innervates depending on fight, and 10/25 man. Finally, I really like greatness for timing shadowfiend too, because either bloodlust happens at the start of a fight or the shaman manages to hit it .1 seconds before shadow fiends/mirror images are summoned....)
Greatness (int)
Jet'ze's Bell
Soul of the Dead
Illustration of the Dragon Soul (assuming 200 not 260 spell power)
Majestic Dragon Figurine
Spirit World Glass
Everything else is I think a notch down, except for maybe the JC and alchemy trinkets.
I have found the best way for analyzing disc performance is to look at the healing received by the tank, assuming your disc priest is responsible for tank healing. Raid healers will always have much higher overall numbers than tank healers due to having more damage available to heal, so comparing the two isn't really fair or worthwhile.
Using the WWS you posted, the chart at the bottom of the page linked below shows the healing received by the tank (Okragos) in all boss fights:
Selane is third in healing done to the tank but is approximately equal to the two druids ahead of him/her (2.1 mil vs 2 mil vs 1.9 mil), so I would say he/she was doing an alright job.
I think this is an important point for analyzing all healers' performances with WWS or Recount, that we have to take into account their assignments in the raid. Players exclusively healing raid damage will always be higher on the meters because there is simply more damage to heal up.
How much more healing output should a Holy Priest have ahead of a Disc Priest if I were to look at a WWS, assuming similar gear/skill? Basically I have no idea how to judge performance for our Disc Priest but the numbers I'm seeing are terribly low, I just don't know how much of an impact the Disc spells that don't show up as healing on WWS impact that (bubbles, etc).
Shit I might as well post it. She already left the guild, but this would be helpful if we have any more Disc apps, so I have a better understanding of the spec and how to judge performance.
Well, this is a problem I have dealt with and tried to explain a few times to no avail. A big portion of bringing a discipline priest to raids are the power word: shield being greater than other priests, divine aegis stacking a shield on the healing target, grace (if you don't have a blessing of sanctuary), and Divine Spirit (note, not imp: ds). Since the discipline priest deals alot with absorption, it's very under-represented on your wws as well as healing meters.
The only things you may see on your healing meters are penance, flash, gheal, and maybe a power word: shield heal (most disc priests pick up that glyph). Realistically, you're putting your disc priest as a single target healer on a MT or OT, and your discipline priest basically evens out the bursty damage your tanks are taking. This really is harder to measure than absorption, but recount does show a good graph for it if you look at the incoming damage of your tank as a graph. Without a disc priest, your tanks incoming damage is going to have severe peaks. With on, the mitigation from absorption makes those big drops, smaller and easier to manage, allowing the other healers to be a bit more reactive with their heals (and stay outside of the 5sr if that matters).
Also, the disc priest brings 2 "oh shit" buttons: power infusion and pain suppression. Pain suppression is a reactive man's way to throttle the incoming damage. It differs from Guardian Spirit because it requires no healing to actually be effective (referring to the portion of guardian spirit that increases healing on the target). This is marvelous if you know the mob is about to take a big shit on your tank. Second, power infusion is one of those two fold spells. If you toss it on a DPS...they do alot more damage, helping to squeeze out that last 2% of a bosses health when things are falling apart. If the priest uses it on themself, it'll help cover a particularly bursty amount of damage. Since Power Infusion is not tied to the global cooldown, you can actually macro it to another spell like flash for a 1second flash heal, or gheal for a 2 second gheal. Realistically, both are tough to measure.
I'd say if you notice your tanks aren't dying alot, your disc priest is doing their job.
1) What is your ideal combination of two trinkets? If you had all the trinkets, which would you use by default?
1A) Assuming that either Je'Tze's Bell and/or Greatness are in there, what would it be without those two relatively difficult to acquire trinkets? That is, say, only specific instance boss drops, Naxx, OS, Malygos.
2) If you had all available trinkets, in which situations would you use which set? Say, Patchwerk vs Malygos vs Sarth+3 vs Kel'Thuzad, which I think of as exercising different priest strengths.
I'll start by noting some trinkets from your list that I think are simply rather inferior and not in contention for BiS:
- Figurine - Sapphire Owl. Easy, decent stats, but pretty much strictly inferior to Darkmoon Card: Greatness, and not as good as Spirit World Glass for regen.
- Egg of Mortal Essence. I like haste - if I can have it when I need it. Random haste procs on the other hand seem really underwhelming for a healer. The spellpower is nice but not as good as some others on this list.
- Living Ice Crystals. If used optimally the use effect is worth about 17mp5 in my opinion, making the trinket good for 60mp5 and not much else. Not bad, but having to remember to use the effect every minute is a drag and even then the Soul of the Dead should get you more regen without the need for management, and has some crit besides.
- Darkmoon Card: Greatness (+spirit). Spirit simply isn't (quite) as good as Int now, even for Holy priests. If you can get one of these cards you should get the Int one.
- Darkmoon Card: Illusion. Very similar to Je'Tze's bell, except slightly less spellpower and you need to arrange to take damage in order to get the regen effect, whereas the bell gives you its regen naturally from spellcast procs.
- Forethought Talisman: the proc isn't that good due to its randomness, so this really doesn't have much beyond spellpower going for it.
Some others that are better:
- Spirit-World Glass. Good, though very similar to the +spirit version of Darkmoon: Greatness. Maybe with very good management of the use effect you can get enough mp5 out of this card to make it better than the Darkmoon card, but I'm skeptical, and it would probably still be inferior to the +int version of the card.
- Majestic Dragon Figurine. Also kind of similar to the Glass and the +spirit Darkmoon card. Higher average spirit gain, but without the opportunity to manage a proc or use effect for added benefit. Whether you would prefer this over the Glass depends I think on whether you like managing stuff to squeeze out an optimal effect, or would prefer fewer things to look after.
- Spark of Life. Nice balance of throughput and regen, but ultimately a little short of raw power.
- Soul of the Dead. The mp5 from this should actually be pretty good on average, but on the other hand the proc is somewhat unreliable (25% chance on a crit). And the crit rating is obviously of interest to some builds (IHC/SoL focused) but less good for others.
- Je'Tze's Bell. Nice balance of spellpower and mp5, no special management required.
Best: Illustration of the Dragon Soul, Darkmoon Card: Greatness (+int).
It should be noted that the Dragon Soul is not just a *little* bit better than other trinkets, it stands head and shoulders above them. +260 spellpower is just worth a lot - see the rawr graphic posted above. The gap between the +int Greatness card and the other trinkets is not as large. These two trinkets (one great for both throughput and endurance, the other almost a pure endurance trinket) would be fine for 90% of fights. If I found myself in a situation where throughput were so critical that I felt like I had to swap out the Darkmoon card, many of the other trinkets provide very similar throughput improvements (by virtue of having about 100 spellpower), and I would probably actually go with the Mercurial Alchemist Stone. In general the question of which trinkets to use for different fights is going to come down to 'which trinket do you want to use with the Dragon Soul?', and is going to depend on the rest of your gear and whether you feel lacking in throughput or endurance.
This is marvelous if you know the mob is about to take a big shit on your tank. Second, power infusion is one of those two fold spells. <snip> If the priest uses it on themself, it'll help cover a particularly bursty amount of damage..
I know that in practice it might not work out as well due to latency and human reaction time, but I think I'd rather see a PI'd Holy Lights on the tank. A minor thing though.
My suggestion for evaluating said disc priest would be to count how many spells she casted, or rather how much time spent casting. Ideally she will use the maximum number of possible penances/shields per fight, and will be casting near 100% of the time. I can't think of anything else to take from a glance at WWS.
hymn of hope does it cheat the FSR being 'free' ?
feels like im casting but when I make things free with inner focus I cheat the rule.
kinda nice if i need regen so have sneaked out of fsr and can do this as well, Id test it but it makes me regen when i do :P im not sure if its pure hymn or Hymn + ofsr regen.
Im thinking can I double dip an int proc from darkmoon greatness? (int + int main stat proc)
try to get out of fsr for last 8 secs of 300 int so get some increased regen and then double dip the 300 int for hymn IF it doesnt break fsr.
You don't use any mana when channeling Hymn of Hope, so it's free.
Parsing discipline's effect is going to be difficult until they make mitigation and absorption more readily identifiable.
One suggestion for Power Infusion: I put a whisper macro as well as a say. That way my target KNOWS that they have Power Infusion and they'll hopefully use it accordingly.
It's easier to assess the power/skill of Disc Priest in a setting where healing is actually at least a little bit challenging. If you run Naxx10 with a Druid (or Shaman) and a Disc Priest maybe. But if you have three healers in Naxx10 with a Paladin, a Holy Priest and replinishement, then the Disc Priest performance is bound to look bad. The Paladin tank healing numbers on WWS always come up crazy huge. The Holy Priest will not let the Disc Priest do much raid healing.
Sure, the Disc Priest could just spam away and take the 80% overhealing. But what for? That's pretty pointless. From my experience I run out of mana quite a while before our Paladin when I spam heals (particularly because overhealing doesn't give Rapture). So that's not how I heal. If the Paladin has the tank covered then I keep Mending hopping around, grace up on the tank and top up whoever really needs it.
For some encounters we have particularly way too many healers. There I just use my hit-gear and throw Holy Fire, Mind Blast and Pain out whenever they're up. In fights with pulsed AoE (sapph maybe) shielding casters for reduced push-back is also a nice use of time (even though I'm not entirely sure if the Frost stuff causes push back).
Otherwise dispelling stuff and and evening out damage spikes on the tank is what I do. I rarely have more than 20% overhealing on any of my spells. There's just no value in competing for overhealing with a Paladin.
Saving stupid people who can't move out of AoE or otherwise take too much damage is something Disc is quite good at. So perhaps total deaths could be a decent measure of a Disc Priest's performance. For example one of our not-so-clever Death Knights got confused during Malygos phase 2 and ran around "outside" during the deep breath. Since I had mana to spare and cool downs ready I was able to save him. I'm reasonably confident that many other healers would have a harder time there than I did and a death there in 10-man has lead to failure by lack of dps for us.
After switching to disc for Sarth+3, I will probably play this spec a while in other raids as well, and it made me wonder what dps would benefit the most from Power-Infusion.
Is there any general concensus about which caster-class benefits the most from that 20% haste?
I generally just switch Recount to Damage Done and give it to the top caster, provided I don't need to walk across a room at KT to get in range.
I think all casters nowadays have some effects which influence their rotation so that it's not just a simple "cast as many X as possible" anymore. They often need to weave in secondary spells and (self) buffs to maintain their DPS so I doubt it's a simple linear calculation to see who gets the most out of it. My gut feeling says that probably Moonkin and Mage are amongst those that get most out of it, but that's just guesswork really.
Ideally someone who can boost their spell power/crit/damage somehow while affected. Maybe a Mage with Arcane Power or Combustion would be best. Mine usually either goes to our Destro Lock or Frostfire Mage.
A mage, destro lock, or moonkin would all be good targets, elemental shaman post patch.
Don't just do it though. Talk about when you're going to do it. My guess would be to use it on them when they get cooldowns back up after the first bloodlust, but ymmv.
Mages either have a talent or the mage I was running with had a trinket that, when activated, prevented me to put PI on him. When I had him selected and he activated it, my button turned red.
Shadowpriests in MF/MB spamming mode love it as well.
01/13/09, 3:24 PM
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