If you're looking to increase throughput, [Eye of the Broodmother] is very much so BiS. Run RAWR, set up the right optimization parameters and let it rip, and see for yourself. 2nd best is one of the ToC trinkets. If you optimize for both throughput and longetivity, I'm not sure if it still makes it in. I ran RAWR when ToC first came out, and it definitely didn't know you could equip both versions. As such, Eye was still one of the two it suggested.
I have no idea if it does now, anyone know?
[Spark of Hope] specifically is one of those trinkets that's a great idea to hold on to. Some encounter mechanic in IC might make it a clear winner. If there is a mana drain encounter like we had in Hyjal, trinket priority swings dramatically.
In general, it is good practice to stock 3 or 4 trinkets of varying type and swap them in/out depending on the encounter. It doesn't take up much bag space, and has a significant effect on your output/efficiency to merit bothering with.
2x [Solace of the Defeated] is the clear best in slot option. If you only have one, Spark of Hope is a good option. [Pandora's Plea] is almost as good as well. And I'd use [Eye of the Broodmother] over spark if for some reason I had way, way too much mana. Those are the only options worth considering, I believe.
I'm in a gearing dilemma at the moment. Not quite sure where to post this, I'm guessing this is the best place for it. TLDR at the bottom. My main spec has always been holy. My gear so far had looked like this:
Fresh 80 to naxx 25 farm: ilvl upgrades is all that matters, gem for spell power while keeping socket bonuses.
Early Ulduar 10: Massive incoming raid damage on most fights. I felt my current gear can't cope. I assembled a fully new set of gear, about 12 pieces (mostly ilvl 200 epics with a couple of blues), all picked/socketed for haste. That set was so devastating to my spell power and regen that I'd only use it when I was solo raid healing. When I did use it however, relying on innervates to keep going, 1200 haste coupled with the new targeted PoH was very potent. Dropping to two healers gave us early kills on decon prenerf and a very early hodir hard mode kill when most of us were still undergeared.
Late Ulduar 10: As our dps geared up and we could run with 3 healers more comfortably, I ended up using my haste set less and less, as such it has fallen very far behind my main set that I stopped using it. My main set prioritizes spirit.
Ulduar 10 hard modes and ToC 10: I started getting called on to switch to disc and tank heal pretty often but my throughput was pathetic from carrying holy itemized gear/gems. So I readjusted/regemmed my gear. I got it to the point of being solid for both specs. In balancing the gear for both however, I deprioritized haste to the point of dropping to below 200 rating.
ToGC 10: We're hitting a brick wall with how tightly its tuned and we were discussing dropping back down to two healers. However, my haste set is archaic now and won't cut it. Simply regemming all my gear for haste won't be enough either, netting me 120 more, which would put me at an unremarkable 320 haste. Yet I can't really justify spending gold and badges on crafting high end haste gear when it could otherwise upgrade my main set overall. However, during actual raiding, I can't help but feel that my current gear simply has too much regen, too much spell power, too much crit, and not enough haste.
Its plainly visible for me. I'm at a loss.
TLDR
Do I gear up normally and wait for the rest of my guild to gear up for ToGC and simply accept that we won't get any kills until that happens? Or do I do a massive gear overhaul in an attempt to speed up our first ToGC kill while living with the fact that all this new gear will be no more than a downgrade/sidegrade that will collect dust in my bags once my fellow raiders gear up? Do I permanently switch to a haste heavy setup, accepting some downgrades to do it, and stick with that?
Remember, this thread is named "Simple Questions/Simple Answers", so if your post has a TLDR section, it's best to start with that.
Getting back to your question, the problem is that you are bringing three healers. Having done all the 10 man content in the game, there is only one fight where you need three healers to beat it when you first encounter it (Algalon) and one other fight where it's probably a good idea (Freya). Everything else, including all of heroic ToC, can and should be done with two healers. I assume your typical raid makeup is 2 tank, 3 healer, 5 DPS. We use 2 tank, 2 healer, 6 DPS, so that's 20% more damage (assuming our DPS players are roughly as good as yours). And 20% more damage means the healers need 20% less mana. The fights just don't last as long.
I guess my question is why you feel like you'd need to stack haste if you went down to 2 healers. Why not focus on high throughput, mana efficient heals instead, like Prayer of Mending and Circle of Healing, and stack spell power?
You're correct in that we're using the 2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps setup. As for stacking haste when going down to two healers, my premise is that since fights are much shorter, regen is less relevant. But when I'm the only raid healer, I have so many more responsibilities that it seems haste is the best way to accomplish them all.
For example, on Togc 10 Gormok, I can reasonably expect to be dealing with a fire dot on one ranged dps, fire dot on me, assisting on the MT with 4 impale stacks all at the same time, followed by having to heal Staggering Stomp a couple of seconds later. It seems to me that simply relying on finesse in spell selection isn't always going to be enough for these situations.
You can remove the fire dot from the equation, for what it's worth. As well, you shouldn't *really* need to assist on the Impale stack if you're running with a competent second healer, although you certainly can.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
You're correct in that we're using the 2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps setup. As for stacking haste when going down to two healers, my premise is that since fights are much shorter, regen is less relevant. But when I'm the only raid healer, I have so many more responsibilities that it seems haste is the best way to accomplish them all.
For example, on Togc 10 Gormok, I can reasonably expect to be dealing with a fire dot on one ranged dps, fire dot on me, assisting on the MT with 4 impale stacks all at the same time, followed by having to heal Staggering Stomp a couple of seconds later. It seems to me that simply relying on finesse in spell selection isn't always going to be enough for these situations.
The benefit of haste depends greatly on what spells you are casting. Haste won't increase how much Prayer of Mending or Circle of Healing you can cast, as these are cooldown limited, and these are your two biggest throughput spells. It won't make Renew tick faster either, and it doesn't give you appreciably more surge of light procs. But it will help if you're casting a lot of Prayer of Healing, Holy Nova, or standard Flash Heal. The real question is... are you casting spells that get better with haste? That will tell you whether you value haste or spell power higher.
On Gormok, I would probably keep a renew and mending on the main tank and keep a renew on the other tank if he has impale. I'd also rely on renew to heal up anyone who took a tick or two of fire. If they take more than that, I'd blow guardian spirit on them. My surge of light procs would go almost exclusively to the main tank, giving me a 3 stack of serenity. When the stomp comes, I refresh mending, then prayer of healing the melee group after stomp, and finally bounce a circle of healing off the main tank to top everyone off. The other healer in the raid would be focusing a bit more on the main tank and a bit less on raid healing. Given how I approach this fight at least, spell power is better than haste. Both are good.
I'm sure my gear is significantly better than yours, but even on day one, I didn't find this fight particularly challenging to two heal.
The benefit of haste depends greatly on what spells you are casting. Haste won't increase how much Prayer of Mending or Circle of Healing you can cast, as these are cooldown limited, and these are your two biggest throughput spells. It won't make Renew tick faster either, and it doesn't give you appreciably more surge of light procs. But it will help if you're casting a lot of Prayer of Healing, Holy Nova, or standard Flash Heal. The real question is... are you casting spells that get better with haste? That will tell you whether you value haste or spell power higher.
At least in the context of 25 man content, I disagree somewhat with your assessment on the value haste has for renew. I have found renew to be a fantastic spell to cast on as many dps as possible on fights with lots of AoE between damage spikes. Haste allows you to keep renew rolling on more targets.
For example, going in to Steelbreaker phase 3, I try to have renew up on as many characters as possible to make the transition easier while healers and dps are repositioning. Getting another cast or two of renew in can be very beneficial.
I decided to test a few gear adjustments in togc 10 last night. I upped my haste from ~150 rating to ~550 through various gear swaps and a little badge expenditure. I felt a significant difference. I was able to put out the healing required and I even had a little spare time to dps a bit. On our best attempt I held approximately 2k dps with 2k hps for the entirety of the Gormok encounter.
I did however feel the effects of the lessened regen towards the end of phase 2, and by the time we got to Icehowl, I was healing on fumes. We ended up wiping at 15% because of Icehowl's third charge connecting and taking out 3 people, but we finally felt that the fight was within reach.
I'm fairly confident now that serious haste stacking isn't going to be massively beneficial at the cost of extremely low regen, but it seems that my haste troubles simply stemmed from having very low haste to begin with. Once I reached the 400+ range of haste, I was pretty comfortable. I also have to thank you tedv, because once I had the idea in my head that this isn't a hard fight to heal, it felt much easier than before.
As for the levitate trick, I have to say that it did help us out substantially in learning the fight, especially when I kept it rolling on the MT healer, as well as prebuffing all the ranged with it. I told my raiders that this trick is simply a crutch for us to get comfortable with the fight and that we won't be using it next time, in preparation of it getting hot fixed soon.
If mana is a concern, make sure you use your Hymn of Hope at the right time, ideally at the end of either phase 1 or phase 2. And be sure to blow shadowfiend on Icehowl's first crash. If you're doing both of those and still running low on mana, you are best off looking for some kind of spirit regeneration break, ideally between phases or during a crash. And there's always stuff like potions and innervates if absolutely necessary.
Didn't they change fiend's mana return to be off # of attacks and not dmg done when they revamped it? If I'm not totally making that up, then the ideal time regenwise to use the fiend is right before you lust. Icehowl's crash just provides some decent damage done.
"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali
Didn't they change fiend's mana return to be off # of attacks and not dmg done when they revamped it? If I'm not totally making that up, then the ideal time regenwise to use the fiend is right before you lust. Icehowl's crash just provides some decent damage done.
Yes it returns a percentage (4 or 5?) of your mana pool with each attack.
I did however feel the effects of the lessened regen towards the end of phase 2, and by the time we got to Icehowl, I was healing on fumes. We ended up wiping at 15% because of Icehowl's third charge connecting and taking out 3 people, but we finally felt that the fight was within reach.
I think the way Tedv is explaining it is correct. If your arnt having mana issues till the end of Phase 2, then you should be popping Hymn of Hope at the end of Phase 2 in preparation for Phase 3, and if that is not enough for Phase 3 then pop Shadowfiend. The assumption is that you Bloodlust almost off the bat in Phase 2 to down Acidmaw, at this time mana is most likely not an issue.
Well the shadowfiend will restore the most mana when used in conjunction with bloodlust, but odds are that at the start of p1, you won't be low enough on mana to get full value from it. If you're below 40%, then by all means use the shadowfiend in conjunction with your lust on the wurms. Using fiend during the Icehowl crash is the next best option as shadowfiend deals a significant amount of damage.
All most every fight i am in i try to not use the hymn of hope and shadowfiend at the same time so when the cool down is back up it will be at a point where i could use more mana. I never had a problem with keeping the rotation of each along with a mana potion if needed
On ToGC25, I solo heal the raid while the other healers spam the hell out of the tanks in p1 of Beasts. I usually am at or close to dry by the time the Worms come out, at which point I pop my Hymn and either get Mana Tide and/or an Innervate and go from there.
I prefer to pop my Shadowfiend on Worms right after a fresh reemergence once my mana pool is low enough to get full benefit from the little bastard and reserve my Runic for emergency use only.
The way I see it, during Icehowl, the slam toward the wall and running back to him after the crash gives you some actual OOFSR regen, which is damn nice and mellows out the pressure on your mana bar.
Originally Posted by Lichdom
I decided to test a few gear adjustments in togc 10 last night. I upped my haste from ~150 rating to ~550 through various gear swaps and a little badge expenditure. I felt a significant difference. I was able to put out the healing required and I even had a little spare time to dps a bit. On our best attempt I held approximately 2k dps with 2k hps for the entirety of the Gormok encounter.
I did however feel the effects of the lessened regen towards the end of phase 2, and by the time we got to Icehowl, I was healing on fumes. We ended up wiping at 15% because of Icehowl's third charge connecting and taking out 3 people, but we finally felt that the fight was within reach.
I'm fairly confident now that serious haste stacking isn't going to be massively beneficial at the cost of extremely low regen, but it seems that my haste troubles simply stemmed from having very low haste to begin with. Once I reached the 400+ range of haste, I was pretty comfortable. I also have to thank you tedv, because once I had the idea in my head that this isn't a hard fight to heal, it felt much easier than before.
If you're having mana issues, don't dps so much.
Pre re-arranging your gems, did you dps at all? You're comparing apples to oranges. It wouldn't be a clean comparison unless you dps'd just as much before the adjustments or none at all during both conditions.
The fact that you had time to spare to DPS that much tells me that the adjustments you made are a massive improvement. You should a) Keep them, and consider other tweaks (like spec) to further augment your healing b) Stop DPSing. Especially in hardmode, you're there to heal.
Having done all the 10 man content in the game, there is only one fight where you need three healers to beat it when you first encounter it (Algalon) and one other fight where it's probably a good idea (Freya). Everything else, including all of heroic ToC, can and should be done with two healers.
I had a night of wipes on NR beasts heroic 10 man last night with a group of 2 tanks, 2 healers, 6 DPS and for the group we had, it just didn't seem doable, save from on an attempt with perfect RNG.
The group makeup was:
Prot Pala
Frost DK
Holy priest
Disc priest (me)
Combat Rogue
MM Hunter
MM Hunter
Surv Hunter
Ret Pala
Feral Druid
I felt horribly inadequate as tank healer on Gormok, loosing a tank towards the end of the phase almost every attempt. DPS in this group was well within safe limits though, on the very first attempt we had Gormok down with ~28 seconds to spare before worm spawn timer, but I lost one of the tanks just before he went down. So DPS was very much a non-issue, but I felt that healing was. It might be one of three things:
1) We need a third healer
2) We need a different healer setup
3) I need better gear (feel free to armory me and comment on whether this gear is viable for 10 man heroic ToC)
Obvious suggestions for group improvements would be adding a shaman for heroism and diversifying the healer duo, but we were working with what we had access to for the evening.
Mainly, I'm curious whether you based on your experience think that the fight should be doable with this setup?
1) We need a third healer
2) We need a different healer setup
3) I need better gear (feel free to armory me and comment on whether this gear is viable for 10 man heroic ToC)
1) If your group is mostly 10 man geared, the fight is - much - safer with a third healer. Your DPS seems to be very good, 28s before worm spawns is great, we had to tank/heal Gormok around 15s aside the worms. Looks like your DPS is good enough to allow for a third healer.
2) A holy priest isn't that great in that fight, as most of the healing is going to only a few targets. A holy paladin instead of the holy priest will help, but it will still be a challenge with 2 healers, except if your tanks are equipped far better than you.
3) Your gear is ok, but could stand some improvements from ToC normal. Personally, I would swap some int gems for spellpower. The equipment of your tanks is far more important during the Gormok phase.
Tips:
- Make sure the boss is fully debuffed at all times. If he's not - that further increases your problem, so make it your job to check for this always.
- Make sure the tanks are using as much mitigation equipment as they can. Many tanks gear for hp and threat. On Gormok.10 heroic, you will notice a few swapped pieces giving more armor and avoidance.
Originally Posted by Pewsey
Many of our snakes are 3m+ in size. They'll just take the lawnmower off you and beat the shit out of you with it to make you tender, then bite you and eat you.
Combat Rogue
MM Hunter
MM Hunter
Surv Hunter
Ret Pala
Feral Druid
I felt horribly inadequate as tank healer on Gormok, loosing a tank towards the end of the phase almost every attempt. DPS in this group was well within safe limits though, on the very first attempt we had Gormok down with ~28 seconds to spare before worm spawn timer, but I lost one of the tanks just before he went down. So DPS was very much a non-issue, but I felt that healing was. It might be one of three things:
1) We need a third healer
2) We need a different healer setup
3) I need better gear (feel free to armory me and comment on whether this gear is viable for 10 man heroic ToC)
Firstly, Disc works well on Northrend Beasts, so you should not be feeling too inadequate here. Inspiration is reducing the physical damage Gormok deals out by 10% and your shields are useful against Impale stacks and quick saves on people with Fire stacks. Make sure you're only on the tanks though, do not venture off onto the raid except for shield the raid. Gormok hits like a truck, so your focus needs to be on the tanks. Make sure your Pally bubbles off some of the stacks towards the end if your having trouble catching up with healing.
However I would definitely encourage you to attempt it with 3 healers. If yourself or your other healer gets hit with a Snobald, there's a LOT of damage for 1 healer to take care. It's easy to handle on normal ToC until the Snobald is dead, but on heroic, more often then not it's going to be a wipe. Same thing during phase 2. If the other healer is hit with Toxin/Fire and can't get it off in time, you're not going to be able to single heal the rest of phase 2.
Definitely consider putting in a shaman somewhere for Heroism. Drop a hunter for a Resto shaman if possible, giving yourself that 3rd healer and that extra dps during Icehowl. There's no need for 3 hunters here. If you have made it to phase 3, you may have noticed that you have only a limited times that Icehowl will do his charge before he Berserk Enrages (3 i believe, maybe 4). So save your Heroism for phase 3.
Other than the fact i think 2200 spell power unbuffed is a bit low for ToGC, your gear seems fine to handle the encounter. Like Hegen said above me, try swapping some of those Int gems for pure spell power.
Your raid makeup is really not ideal. You have no bloodlust, for example. That will slow your DPS which in turn will tax the healers. You have no mage, so the tanks aren't getting Amplify Magic. That's another 255 spell power on your heals that you've just lost. Also, if the Holy priest wasn't bouncing Mending off the tanks and keeping Renews on both of them, your healing will be harder as well.
Your raid makeup is really not ideal. You have no bloodlust, for example. That will slow your DPS which in turn will tax the healers. You have no mage, so the tanks aren't getting Amplify Magic. That's another 255 spell power on your heals that you've just lost. Also, if the Holy priest wasn't bouncing Mending off the tanks and keeping Renews on both of them, your healing will be harder as well.
I agree that a shaman would be very helpful indeed, but as previously mentioned we had pretty strong DPS even without one (28 seconds to spare on Gormok). The mage is a good point though, but... We had the option of bringing one, but opted not to for the sake of having a synergistic physical DPS (hence the reason we asked our rogue to go combat instead of his normal assn spec). Since it in the end proved that tank survivability and not DPS was our weak point, it might have been wiser to go with the mage.
The holy priest was assisting with tank healing, yeah.
We'll be back on it with 3 healers, and I've regemmed my gear a bit for more throughput, sacrificing a bit of regen. Thanks for all the input.
2) A holy priest isn't that great in that fight, as most of the healing is going to only a few targets. A holy paladin instead of the holy priest will help, but it will still be a challenge with 2 healers, except if your tanks are equipped far better than you.
I completely disagree with this statement. Phase 1 Beasts is tailored to Holy priest raid healing, imo. A timed, predictable, party wide burst dmg is completely countered by a Serendipityx3+PoH cast, followed by CoH.
Mending & Flash Heal spam takes care of the Fire Bomb damage, and there is ample tank healing time as well.
I solo heal the raid during p1 on ToC25H as holy, only really needing *some* help if I am Snobold'ed. And even then I can still heal melee to a greater extent with CoH and Renew spam and still have time to mending ranged firebombed people.
In ToC10H, I have ample time to heal the tank b/c I can burst up anyone else in no time. I've done ToC10H as Disc and Holy and both excel at all fights in their duties (tank vs raid).
small question, in my 25toc raids our guild all ways has 4-6 druids, would i not want to worry about mana regen with so many and just gem for spell power and increase the out put of my heals. i also have never had a major problem with the regen so i cant decide
You could start by swapping to SP trinkets if you have them. Do this, b/c in cases where you need more regen, you can simply put your Spi and Int trinkets back in mid raid without any trouble. If you are still finding that you don't have mana issues, then consider regemming for higher throughput via Spell Power, Haste, and Crit.
You have m5 gems in your holy set. At the very least, if you changed those to spirit, you'd experience a negligible difference in regen but increased throughput. Your gloves have no enchant at all on them. I'd suggest changing your m5 gems/enchants to spirit and/or spellpower.
If you've never had a major problem with regen, then go for throughput. Why would you try to find a solution for a problem you don't have?
09/29/09, 2:06 PM
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