Priest: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 8

Nomad_Wanderer · 12/03/08, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by constantius

Mostly, as Nuuru said, I don't want it bouncing to me. I don't really need PoM. But with 19.6k raid-buffed HP, it almost never goes to the rogues who are down 3k, because 23k-3k > 19.6k. It's stupid. They had (maybe still do, I haven't double checked) the same issue with the smart targeting on CoH: it was targeting the people with the lowest overall HP, not the people *missing* the most HP. It was really odd on beta to hit CoH and watch it miss the MT repeatedly because even though he was down 8k HP, he still had more than anyone else in the room. I believe they fixed it, since I haven't seen the same thing happen on Live, but I might be mistaken.

I think I saw this behavior last night, where CoH was targeting people that didn't need the heals... I was with a paladin in Naxx10, so he wasn't group healing enough to cause such a high miss rate in CoH, so maybe..

Then again, I had 4 imperial IPA's during the raid too, so I could have been hitting Holy Nova...

I'll try this again tonight this time without the IPA's.

Has anyone been successful in getting a [Je'Tze's Bell]? I'm really liking how this trinket looks, but I'm really disappointed at how blizzard set this up.. Put it in raid content as a boss drop... Not a world drop FFS. I feel like I have no chance to get it, even with all of icecrown and 1/3 of Storm Peaks left to do quest/contentwise.

Also, I have not done the math yet, but High MP5 values+Meditation+Rapture+Divine Aegis looks interesting....

For example, I hit close to 500 mp5 raid buffed last night. Along with meditation and 1.05k spirit, and 900ish int, That made me stop and think.. wait a sec.. With the right spec and glyphs am I close to free flash heals or at least majority refunded?

I'm sure that blizzard made it so you can't get free heals, but if you can get to even 60% cost reduction, that makes your mana pool close to 2x....

lassenc · 12/03/08, 10:05 AM

I am redoubting my current main/offhand vs. a single staff.

[Handbook of Obscure Remedies] and [War Mace of Unrequited Love]

or

[Staff of Draconic Combat]

I can find pros/cons for both items

bbartlog · 12/03/08, 10:20 AM

For example, I hit close to 500 mp5 raid buffed last night. Along with meditation and 1.05k spirit, and 900ish int, That made me stop and think.. wait a sec.. With the right spec and glyphs am I close to free flash heals or at least majority refunded?

I'm sure that blizzard made it so you can't get free heals, but if you can get to even 60% cost reduction, that makes your mana pool close to 2x....

You can get close. But the relevant stats are int (or rather the size of your mana pool, but for practical purposes it's the same thing) and spellpower, assuming Disc priest with Rapture. It sounds like you would have to change your spec and gearing pretty significantly to aim for this goal, though. Anyway, even if you could get totally free flash heals and/or Penance (and I don't think you can with current gear), at some point well before 0 cost casts the cost reduction means that you can cast spells indefinitely, at which point it doesn't make sense to pursue further efficiency gains.

Thorongil · 12/03/08, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by bbartlog

You can get close. But the relevant stats are int (or rather the size of your mana pool, but for practical purposes it's the same thing) and spellpower, assuming Disc priest with Rapture. It sounds like you would have to change your spec and gearing pretty significantly to aim for this goal, though. Anyway, even if you could get totally free flash heals and/or Penance (and I don't think you can with current gear), at some point well before 0 cost casts the cost reduction means that you can cast spells indefinitely, at which point it doesn't make sense to pursue further efficiency gains.

It will be hard for Flash Heals (impossible with current gear), but it´s no problem to actually get Mana refunded from Penance with current items from 10/25mans.

Nomad_Wanderer · 12/03/08, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Thorongil

It will be hard for Flash Heals (impossible with current gear), but it´s no problem to actually get Mana refunded from Penance with current items from 10/25mans.

Has anyone done some TC on where there's numbers are? and how close people can get to them?

Thorongil · 12/03/08, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Nomad_Wanderer

Has anyone done some TC on where there's numbers are? and how close people can get to them?

I normally refrain from quoting myself, but in this case it´s viable, I think: http://elitistjerks.com/f77/t35208-w...19/#post995128

€: I´ll add the cap numbers (read "which values do I need to get free [Insert Random Spell]") as soon as I have time.

bbartlog · 12/03/08, 11:45 AM

At what point is BoK better than BoW?

I assume you're sort of looking for a stat cutoff at which the scaling of BoK makes it better. For Disc priests, that point comes pretty early because of their massive gains from int:

Suppose you have a Disc priest with 1000 int and 800 spirit (raid buffed but before blessing is applied). These are low numbers.

BoK will increase spirit by 80. That's worth 70 mp5 of OO5SR regen, so 21 mp5 via Meditation.
BoK will increase int by 100. The extra mana alone is worth about 25 mp5 (over five minutes).
The added shadowfiend regeneration is worth another 10 mp5 (again, if we spread it over five minutes).
If we do something like 450K effective healing spread over 150 casts, then total Rapture returns will be around 110% of our mana pool, so the additional 1500 mana in the pool is worth another 28 mp5.
The added 0.6% crit from our 100 int is worth about 3 mp5.

So even for this hypothetical raider, with low stats and what look to me like rather poor returns on Rapture, BoK is worth 87 mp5 compared to 91 from BoW. When we consider the added stamina that BoK also gives, I'd say that even in this situation it should be preferred.

The situation is somewhat different for a Holy priest. Assume similarly entry-level gear: 900 int and 900 spirit (raid buffed but before blessing):

BoK increases spirit by 90. That's worth 75 mp5 of OO5SR regen, 23 mp5 with Meditation, but more like 28 mp5 if we assume 10% of time OO5SR.
BoK increases int by 90. That's worth 22 mp5 for the extra mana alone (over five minutes).
The added shadowfiend regeneration is worth 9 mp5.
The 23 spellpower we gain (via Spiritual Guidance) is worth about 5 mp5.
The added 0.55% crit we gain is worth about 3 mp5.

The total here is only 67 mp5; unless we are desperate for the extra stamina we would want BoW for this priest. Although the need for stamina is pretty situational I would generally give it a value of 1/6 that of mp5, which makes the value of the stamina boost from BoK probably about on a par with 10 mp5.

If you rerun the above numbers assuming 1200 int and 1000 spirit (raid-buffed), which is actually fairly good, then you get 36mp5 + 30mp5 + 12mp5 + 5mp5 + 4mp5 = 89 mp5.

Bottom line, I'd say that BoK is better for Disc priests when their int+spi total around 1800 while for Holy priests that number is more like 2200.

Isin · 12/03/08, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by lassenc

I am redoubting my current main/offhand vs. a single staff.

[Handbook of Obscure Remedies] and [War Mace of Unrequited Love]

or

[Staff of Draconic Combat]

I can find pros/cons for both items

The War Mace also comes out very well for us because there's no "wasted" itemization on stamina. Obviously stam is not a stat any of us plug into our spreadsheets or calculators, but if you keep dying on grobulus or something, it's something to consider.

Frankly I have almost never been impressed by staves in this game. It seems like if you can acquire a MH and an OH of equivalent iLevels to the staff, you will always get better overall stats. According to wowwiki, a staff should have a slotmod of 1.0, and a MH and OH should have an overall slotmod of slightly less than that, but I have never seen this in practice.

Rodandwa · 12/03/08, 3:21 PM

Quick question on Rawr. I'm currently Disc spec'd with around 14% unbuffed haste. Choosing "Disc Tank (Penance/PW:S/ProM/FH)", I get the following stat values:

Haste 2.68
Int 2.34
Spell Power 1.91

Anyone have an idea why haste is coming out so high?

The Not So Evil · 12/03/08, 4:26 PM

Haste comes out that high mostly because it helps you get the burst healing out when the tank needs it. When haste gets this valueable, it means your mana regen for the Options set is sufficient.

Itemization wise, 1 SPP = 0.855 Haste, so 1.91 SPP equals 2.234 equivalent in Haste Rating itemization.

Cahrin · 12/03/08, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Auvii

Nothing?

I confirmed the Rapture bug last night.

Lhyssa · 12/03/08, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Isin

The War Mace also comes out very well for us because there's no "wasted" itemization on stamina. Obviously stam is not a stat any of us plug into our spreadsheets or calculators, but if you keep dying on grobulus or something, it's something to consider.

Frankly I have almost never been impressed by staves in this game. It seems like if you can acquire a MH and an OH of equivalent iLevels to the staff, you will always get better overall stats. According to wowwiki, a staff should have a slotmod of 1.0, and a MH and OH should have an overall slotmod of slightly less than that, but I have never seen this in practice.

I generally found MH + OH to have more brute spellpower, while a staff tends towards larger blocks of pure stats (STAM, INT, SPI, MP5). But, it seems like the stat gaps are a little closer between the two in WotLK.

Sinndir · 12/03/08, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Lhyssa

I generally found MH + OH to have more brute spellpower, while a staff tends towards larger blocks of pure stats (STAM, INT, SPI, MP5). But, it seems like the stat gaps are a little closer between the two in WotLK.

We basically have 3 options for the BiS weapon slots. (Staff or MH/OH)

[Torch of Holy Fire] + [Matriarch's Spawn]
vs.
[Spire of Sunset]
vs.
[Staff of Restraint]

I do not include [Damnation] as it currently has inferior spellpower compared to the other two staves. Even with the under-budget of spellpower, there is still too much wasted item value on stamina on Damnation and the Staff of Restraint is a better choice.

Spire of Sunset - 87 Stam, 101 Int, 99 Haste, 461 SPow, 23 mp5
Staff of Restraint - 85 Stam, 108 Int, 84 Spi, 68 Crit, 461 SPow
Torch + Matriarch - 78 Stam, 90 Int, 43 Spi, 80 Haste, 586 SPow, 15 mp5
vs. Spire of Sunset: Gains of (+43 spirit, +125 SPow) for a Loss of (-9 Stam, -11 Int, -19 Haste, -8 mp5)
vs. Staff of Restraint: Gains of (+80 Haste, +15mp5, +125 SPow) for a Loss of (-7 Stam, -18 Int, -41 Spirit, 68 Crit)

Really it all depends what you want. If you want the crit go Restraint. If you want Haste, go Sunset, but the best overall seems to be the Torch and Offhand... but you'll be fighting other classes for it where you will almost be in the clear for staves.

MegaKenny · 12/03/08, 7:21 PM

Why'd you do your comparison with [Matriarch's Spawn] instead of [Accursed Spine]? Just out of curiosity.

Kashir · 12/03/08, 7:32 PM

Isn't the primary advantage of MH + OH (compared to 2H) that the stat budget is distributed between two items rather than one? Putting 90 int on a staff is more expensive than putting 45 int on each of a MH and OH.

In addition, the Spellpower on weapons is fixed with iLevel (thus, a staff will never have more Spellpower than MH + OH), and Spellpower tends to be the most powerful stat for both healers and casters.

The only way a staff will ever come out better is if the stat distribution is much better than the alternative. For example, one possible solution would be to allow 5 different stats on a 2H, but restrict MH + OH to 4 stats each. That might balance it reasonably well.

With that said, I love my staves just because they generally look cool. That's enough reason for me to stick with them!

Sinndir · 12/03/08, 7:37 PM

Originally Posted by MegaKenny

Why'd you do your comparison with [Matriarch's Spawn] instead of [Accursed Spine]? Just out of curiosity.

The stamina and intellect of the two items are the same so it becomes:

11 spirit, 32 haste, 1 spell power vs. 43 crit rating.

I'll make that trade anytime.

Nurru · 12/03/08, 7:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kashir

In addition, the Spellpower on weapons is fixed with iLevel (thus, a staff will never have more Spellpower than MH + OH), and Spellpower tends to be the most powerful stat for both healers and casters.

This is false. Refer to Weapons - Items - World of Warcraft. Despite all four staves being ilevel 213 there are varying spell power values.

Sinndir · 12/03/08, 7:39 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

This is false. Refer to Weapons - Items - World of Warcraft. Despite all four staves being ilevel 213 there are varying spell power values.

So Nurru, do you think [Damnation] has the correct spell power? If that is true, then I definitely have no intention of taking it.

Nurru · 12/03/08, 7:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sinndir

So Nurru, do you think [Damnation] has the correct spell power? If that is true, then I definitely have no intention of taking it.

You would have to check the item formula, but at a glance it seems like that crit is costing the item significantly. I wouldn't expect it to be buffed.

Shaejin · 12/03/08, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by Nomad_Wanderer

Has anyone been successful in getting a [Je'Tze's Bell]?

I just had one drop an hour ago, I'll post some WWS data in the forum in a day or two.

Starfire · 12/03/08, 8:12 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

You would have to check the item formula, but at a glance it seems like that crit is costing the item significantly. I wouldn't expect it to be buffed.

Actually, at a glance, it looks like the weapon dps is 7 higher. The spellpower on weapons is usually converted from the dps the weapon would normally have. It seems bugged, but it probably won't be fixed.

Shaejin · 12/03/08, 8:13 PM

Does anyone know how Pain Suppression reduces threat?

A. It reduces 5% of all threat acquired during its 8 second duration.
B. It reduces 5% of total threat acquired over the entire fight, all at once, as soon as it lands on its target.

Tooltip: "Instantly reduces a friendly target's threat by 5%, reduces all damage taken by 40% and increases resistance to Dispel mechanics by 65% for 8 sec."

MegaKenny · 12/03/08, 8:27 PM

By reading the tool tip I'd go with B.

Roywyn · 12/03/08, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

You would have to check the item formula, but at a glance it seems like that crit is costing the item significantly. I wouldn't expect it to be buffed.

Spell Power on weapon only depends on item level, and always has been since BC.
Damnation/Nexus Staves are under budget, they should be 461, probably seeing a fix soon.
And [Titansteel Guardian] borked in several ways I think.

Also, the Kel'thuzad Mace (and Sword) are ilvl 226, while the staves are 213 and thus are effectively 1 tier behind.
Which makes them not a fair comparison to begin with.

Asti · 12/04/08, 12:13 AM

I remain out of WoW, but still curious about priest healing mechanics (yay theorycrafting). So a few questions:

- Does Twin Disciplines' 5% bonus apply to SoL-instantized Flash Heals or Smites?
- Is anyone using Test of Faith in their raiding spec? If so, why? I can't see how it's particularly useful, as odds aren't great that your tank will survive long if left at 50% (or less) to get the bonus healing/crit.
- Are there any addon timers that track Weakened Soul's countdown on targets? I presume so, but curious as to which ones folks are using. For disc priests, this seems like a premium for getting a solid rotation down.
- I keep hearing 57 as a magic number for the cookie-cutter Disc and Holy builds, but I haven't been able figure out where the 57th point goes in Holy (see Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for the 56 that seem obvious). Any ideas?

Thanks for the answers, and hope this helps the community.