Since the patch, and with the change of the Shadow Weave procs on Mind Flay and SW: D, I was trying to come up with a certain rotation that got 5 stacks very quickly on a boss. Since most trash pulls won't need 5 stacks, this is just for opening up on bosses.
But I'm wondering, and I hope someone can fill me in here, but when SW: P is applied, does Mind Flay refresh the INITIAL power of the first cast SW: P, or does the refresh update the power output to a new number? I am thinking its the prior of the two, but I'm not sure. If the above is the case, if you cast SW: P when you are at 4 stacks of Shadow Weaving, will the power of SW: P reflect the 4th stack or 5th stack of Shadow Weaving?
If the case is that there must be 5 stacks before casting SW: P, I came up with the following rotation:
VT>MB>DP>MF>SWP>(VE)>MB
(i threw VE in here because it helps out on heals a bit, but its optional)
from then on just refreshing VT, DP, and VE. I think this is the best initial rotation so far, as it gives the 5 stack up front, and lets you get in 2 MB's before VT runs out.
If, however, that the cast of SW: P at the 4th stack of Shadow Weaving gives the effect of 5 stacks to the SW: P debuff, then this would work better:
Not only do you delay SWP, but you use MB before buffs/debuffs are likely up on the mob.
You're going to be using your fiend early on anyway, so for DPS by delaying SWP you're wasting a bit. Something like:
SWP > VT > DP > SWD > MB > SWP will ensure SWP has 5 stacks up, crit/dmg debuffs will be up and you'll still have a good chunk of increased modifiers for your initial MB.
Not only do you delay SWP, but you use MB before buffs/debuffs are likely up on the mob.
You're going to be using your fiend early on anyway, so for DPS by delaying SWP you're wasting a bit. Something like:
SWP > VT > DP > SWD > MB > SWP will ensure SWP has 5 stacks up, crit/dmg debuffs will be up and you'll still have a good chunk of increased modifiers for your initial MB.
Well with my opening MB, I'm not too worried about all the modifiers, as the next MB's I cast will probably have all debuffs/mods on the mob and will get the full benefit.
I save my SWP for so long is because, from what I've read, the SWP ticks reflect when the SWP was initially cast and what debuffs were on the mob at that time. So waiting for most, if not all, of the debuffs/mods are up ensures I don't have recast SWP unless it falls off due to dealing with adds or something.
But I'm wondering, and I hope someone can fill me in here, but when SW: P is applied, does Mind Flay refresh the INITIAL power of the first cast SW: P, or does the refresh update the power output to a new number? I am thinking its the prior of the two, but I'm not sure. If the above is the case, if you cast SW: P when you are at 4 stacks of Shadow Weaving, will the power of SW: P reflect the 4th stack or 5th stack of Shadow Weaving?
The following things are recalculated on every tick of the DoT:
The presence of CoEl/Earth&Moon/Ebon Plaguebringer on the target.
The following things are recalculated whenever you refresh SW:P with Mind Flay:
The caster's spell power.
Everything else, both buffs and debuffs are only calculated when you manually cast SW:P.
Well with my opening MB, I'm not too worried about all the modifiers, as the next MB's I cast will probably have all debuffs/mods on the mob and will get the full benefit.
I save my SWP for so long is because, from what I've read, the SWP ticks reflect when the SWP was initially cast and what debuffs were on the mob at that time. So waiting for most, if not all, of the debuffs/mods are up ensures I don't have recast SWP unless it falls off due to dealing with adds or something.
Casting SWP first off the bat helps in so many way:
* You debuff Misery for the raid, 3% to hit.
* You give MB a 10% damage boost, and you get 1xSW to start with.
* VT opens up the Replenishment proc. DP can either be cast in lower priority or higher depending on the encounter (AE vs Non-AE; Unholy DK present [30% disease boost]).
* SWD can crit, which gives the chance for IST (really minor) and Glyph of Shadow.
* MB can also crit, which gives you another shot at IST and Glyph of Shadow.
On top of it all you get 5xSW (which is not re-figured when SWP gets refreshed via MF) so re-apply SWP and depending on which order you took to get there, either MB will be off cooldown, or you should be able to fit 1 MF in before MB is off cooldown. By the time you re-apply SWP, all necessary debuffs should be on the target, and you'll only get 1-2 ticks, and you've used up a GCD, and a little extra mana.
PS: Reason being for 6 spells to be cast is that SW is applied after the spell hits the mob. So if you have 4xSW and cast SWP, SWP is only getting 4xSW instead of the 5th stack it applied.
Last edited by etrnl : 01/29/09 at 3:25 PM.
Reason: Adding mention for why SWP is re-applied
Casting SWP first off the bat helps in so many way:
* You debuff Misery for the raid, 3% to hit.
* You give MB a 10% damage boost, and you get 1xSW to start with.
* VT opens up the Replenishment proc. DP can either be cast in lower priority or higher depending on the encounter (AE vs Non-AE; Unholy DK present [30% disease boost]).
* SWD can crit, which gives the chance for IST (really minor) and Glyph of Shadow.
* MB can also crit, which gives you another shot at IST and Glyph of Shadow.
On top of it all you get 5xSW (which is not re-figured when SWP gets refreshed via MF) so re-apply SWP and depending on which order you took to get there, either MB will be off cooldown, or you should be able to fit 1 MF in before MB is off cooldown. By the time you re-apply SWP, all necessary debuffs should be on the target, and you'll only get 1-2 ticks, and you've used up a GCD, and a little extra mana.
PS: Reason being for 6 spells to be cast is that SW is applied after the spell hits the mob. So if you have 4xSW and cast SWP, SWP is only getting 4xSW instead of the 5th stack it applied.
I'm not sure how casting SW:P first has any relevance to your 3rd, 4th and 5th points. Would you care to explain?
The upside of casting SW:P first is that your first Mind Blast does 12.2% more damage. Your first DP does 2% more damage. Your first VT does 2% more damage. Then you're at 4 stacks and have the choice of using SW which would do 2% more damage than if you had used it earlier, or you use Mind Flay and you've wasted 1 stack of Shadow Weaving (as it applies 2 and they're calculated before that first tick) and so you just gain 20% on that first Mind Flay.
You also get a couple of extra ticks of SW:P in across the entire fight.
The downsides of casting SW:P first are:
It in effect makes you lose half a tick of VT and Devouring Plague and pushes back your Mind Blasts a bit more.
You still need to cast SW:P later on when you've built up 5 stacks of Shadow Weaving so you're giving up 1 entire GCD's worth of Mind Flay (or pushing back other spells) as well as in practise probably missing out on part of a SW:P tick.
The only way to be sure what's better is to actual start using numbers.
Assuming it's off cooldown, Mind Blast is the most damage you can pack into a single GCD. It would stand to reason that you'd want to get that cooldown working as soon as possible in a fight. The main constraint would be pulling aggro, or the fact that you need to move into position before you can start casting.
In practice, I normally do VT as the mob is moving towards the tank on the initial pull, DP + SWP (+ VE if appropriate) as I am moving into position, and then a Mind Blast. This gives the tank some time to establish a good aggro lead before I start hitting the mob really hard.
But I would Mind Blast right out of the gate every time if I could do it without risking an aggro pull. Even though it would be somewhat gimped without proper debuffs on the mob, over the course of an entire fight it would essentially be an additional Mind Blast for free. I haven't done the math, but it seems that should more than outweigh the penalty of not having a full stack of weaving up on the first MB cast.
Fights where you start in motion:
Anub'rekhan, Maexxna, Noth, Heigan, Loatheb, Gluth, Thaddius, Sapphiron, Sartharion
Fights where you start standing still:
Patchwerk, Grobbulus, Horsemen, Malygos
Fights where it really doesn't matter:
Faerlina, Razuvious, Gothik, Kel'thuzad
If you're starting the fight in motion, there's absolutely no reason not to apply Pain first. If it doesn't matter, you can do whatever you want. If you're starting the fight standing still, then you can argue about which cast order provides a miniscule advantage, but you STILL can't Mind Blast off the bat because you might gain aggro, and especially on Horsemen and Malygos it will probably take several seconds for the tank to properly position the boss, resulting in you having plenty of time to cast Pain ANYWAY, meaning that the only fights for which this discussion is at all relevant are Patchwerk and Grobbulus.
I'm not sure how casting SW:P first has any relevance to your 3rd, 4th and 5th points. Would you care to explain?
The upside of casting SW:P first is that your first Mind Blast does 12.2% more damage. Your first DP does 2% more damage. Your first VT does 2% more damage. Then you're at 4 stacks and have the choice of using SW which would do 2% more damage than if you had used it earlier, or you use Mind Flay and you've wasted 1 stack of Shadow Weaving (as it applies 2 and they're calculated before that first tick) and so you just gain 20% on that first Mind Flay.
You also get a couple of extra ticks of SW:P in across the entire fight.
The downsides of casting SW:P first are:
It in effect makes you lose half a tick of VT and Devouring Plague and pushes back your Mind Blasts a bit more.
You still need to cast SW:P later on when you've built up 5 stacks of Shadow Weaving so you're giving up 1 entire GCD's worth of Mind Flay (or pushing back other spells) as well as in practise probably missing out on part of a SW:P tick.
The only way to be sure what's better is to actual start using numbers.
Right, the 3rd, 4th, and 5th points don't have much to do with casting SWP first, that's my bad. It was more of an explanation towards the opening sequence. This sequence wouldn't have been viable previously due to the more power debuff error you'd get trying to reapply.
It does push back a tick of VT and DP. The focus of the rotation, at least in my view, is that it boosts MB and gives that oddity we have currently (4 spells that are either instant or take up the GCD). Using SWD to apply the fifth stack should also allow a full MF channel (0.5s out of MB cd). Yes you'll have an extra 0.5s during that channel where MB is off cooldown (assuming 0 haste), but it's looking like the best loss.
I guess you could go with MF clipped at the GCD, over SWD, if you absolutely do not want to lose that 0.5s where MB isn't off cooldown, which of course is the most optimal. I'll have to play around with this a little more.
I was under the impression that the reason you waited to build shadow weaving to 5 stacks was because SW:P doesn't take that into account during the refresh with mind flay. Is that no longer the case or am I missing something on why the opening sequence no longer seem to matter?
I was under the impression that the reason you waited to build shadow weaving to 5 stacks was because SW:P doesn't take that into account during the refresh with mind flay. Is that no longer the case or am I missing something on why the opening sequence no longer seem to matter?
SWP still doesn't take SW stacks or % based increases into effect, nothings changed in that respect. SWD not longer applies 2xSW, and SWP can also be reapplied without having to wait for it to drop off (fixed bug), this is what's opened up the opening sequence discussion.
This is just a combination of my thoughts and a clarifacation of Atherias post.
What Ive seen as the new consensous for a shadowpriest opener (well the predominant one) is MB, VT,MF,DP,SWP, but for DPS sakes, wouldn't it be more feasable to cast SWP, add a SWD and drop the MF, so you could cast while getting into position, get the SWP buff on both MB and SWD, and still have a GCD before you MB comes off CD to recast SWP (if the simple math is right SWD,VT,DP,SWP with 240 haste (.12sec per GCD) should land you at 5 stacks SW with SWP up at full, with .02 sec left on MB CD) Leaving a starter of SWP,MB,VT,DP,SWD,SWP,MB...
Additionally this is not the most mana effecient opener, with casting SWP twice, but at higher gear levels (raid buffed 18K mana + with 700 spirit) I never run out of mana on boss fights with my fiend, disp, and pots.
Just wanted to toss this out as food for thought, if theres any distinct lapses in my logic pls point them out to me. (maybe the extra MF ticks makes up for the 2 SWP ticks and the inc dmg, maybe something else, but right now I cant justify a better opener)
Last edited by swankholyman : 02/03/09 at 4:46 PM.
Hmm when SW used to give 2 stacks id go MB > SWD > VT > DP > SW:P.
Atm im doing MF > MF> VT > DP > SW:P, I guess i could throw a dot up initially but i figured the 8% extra damage i get off VT and then the 10% extra damage on the 1st DP/SW:P made up for that, I'm probably wrong though. Everything has felt a tad awkward since the SW nerf.
Everyone keeps talking about the dangers of casting Mind Blast/SWD first for an opener, because if it crits you can pull aggro. My question is, am I the only Priest who casts fade as the tank charges into the boss, that way I don't have to worry about any of my openers pulling aggro...?
Everyone keeps talking about the dangers of casting Mind Blast/SWD first for an opener, because if it crits you can pull aggro. My question is, am I the only Priest who casts fade as the tank charges into the boss, that way I don't have to worry about any of my openers pulling aggro...?
You can do that, certainly, and it works exactly as advertised. But again, if you were moving you weren't casting a nuke, so you could've just cast Pain. If you weren't moving then you're burning a GCD to get Fade on... so you could've just cast Pain.
You can do that, certainly, and it works exactly as advertised. But again, if you were moving you weren't casting a nuke, so you could've just cast Pain. If you weren't moving then you're burning a GCD to get Fade on... so you could've just cast Pain.
You're not burning a GCD to cast Fade if you cast Fade just before the boss is pulled.
I do this on Patchwerk as well as a few other bosses.
You're not burning a GCD to cast Fade if you cast Fade just before the boss is pulled.
I do this on Patchwerk as well as a few other bosses.
Point taken, given that your tank is consistent about when he pulls and how long it takes him to position--and in fact I already listed Patchwerk as a fight on which this consideration is "relevant"--but this is still an awful lot of arguing over a point that adds up to less than 3-4k damage over the entire duration of a very small subset of fights.
As an aside, does the DOT multiplier bonus from crit on shadowform base it on your list crit or on your actual crit rate?
On the subject of opening rotations. I've been checking this over the past few raids and confirmed it last night. MF does not require you cast the full duration in order to get the 2 stack from SW. I have found that if you want to get SW: P rolling quickly, with minimal dps effect, I've been doing run-in SW: D > MF (till GCD) > VT > DP > SW: P. In essence your only using 3 GCDs to full SW stack, since you do the SW: D during the run-in/positioning (with the exception of a few fights) and your only using the GCD on MF. In addition, the only real loss of potential dps is the waste from cutting a weak non-SW: P MF.
Do people's hunters not Misdirect? Tanks not open with Heroic Throw/Avenger's Shield? Maybe in an Archavon pug I'd be cautious, or on certain fights where I know the tank has to move a lot at the start (like Gluth) although that usually means I'm moving a lot too and opening with instants anyway, but I've never even come close to pulling aggro on a boss pull at 80 opening with Mind Blast. Maybe it's different if your hunters aren't on the ball or you have a bear/dk tank (do either of these classes have a large ranged opener that can be cast on the run?), and I just have it easy.
Edit: Having said that, yeah, I think people are probably putting WAY too much thought into the first 6 seconds of the fight. If they'd just fix Mind Flay refreshing with %-based buffs, this would probably all be totally irrelevant anyway.
Your actual crit at the time of cast of the DoT including all appropriate buffs and debuffs.
Then there's the additional factor of when Scorch debuffs are fully stacked on the target. I think most raids bring more than 1 mage so the 5 stack will probably be up before the end of your opening cast sequence, but I think it's yet another reason to just recast Pain in a garbage GCD later.
01/29/09, 12:55 AM
and NoSWD is a whole 7 dps according to simcraft.
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