Shadowpriest Theory Craft - 3.2.2 Edition! - Page 2

Mearis · 11/21/08, 8:45 AM

Originally Posted by Pluff

Simcraft tool tells us that SWD should be included in rotation. Shadow priest has +0.2xSpirit spellpower (with active Glyph of Shadow proc and TF) and as we can see only MB and SWD can proc Imp.Sprit Tap (giving us +10% to spirit and rising our in combat manaregen up to 50%). Also with 4 pieces of tier7 we have +10% critchance to SWD => more damage and more Imp.Spirit Tap procs.

Hmm, that's only true if mind blast crits are not sufficient to obtain a high uptime of improved spirit tap. I am not sure if that outweighs it, I'd have to see the math - they are all open formulas so they should be amenable to simple analytical solutions.

dyelynn · 11/21/08, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by mjs9893

I'm new to shadow (pretty much got into it for leveling) and am confused about something I am seeing again and again.

Improved Mind Blast 5/5 on every spec. Why is this? 5/5 puts your cooldown on MB down to 5.5 seconds which means you still have 0.5 seconds to wait before you can cast it if you are using every GCD. Why is 4/5 not standard putting it at 6 seconds cooldown and falling in line with your global cooldowns.

I suspect this is a haste issue which I don't have a ton of experience with. I hear (oh noes hearsay) that haste does not scale well with us (dots, cooldowns), but is it something I should be actively trying to get for gear or should I just say screw haste and go SP/crit over all?

At what point of haste does having 5/5 MB make a difference or am I completely off track with my whole thought process?

It's largely irrelevant if you're only using a shadow build for leveling... but in raiding, you want the fastest MB cooldown you can because it's the best dps spell we have. Thus, you want to be casting your best dps spell as often as possible.

Mako

Glyph of Fade - This is very fight dependent (primarily helpful on adds-fights), the mana savings are beneficial if you find yourself needing to use the ability more than 0 times per fight.

While I won't argue with you that it's better to do something, rather than nothing, even if that something turns out to be wrong... and depending on whether or not there's some other minor that's moderately worth putting in, i'll probably use this glyph... The simple fact of the matter is, that for spriests, fade is still a broken spell. Every other dps class that has an aggro reducing ability have a permanent threat loss assosiated with that ability. Fade is still a temporary threat loss. So, when a mage goes invisible, when he comes out of invisibility he has less total threat on x target(s). When a warlock soul shatters, he reduces his threat on all targets within 50 yards by half.

When a priest uses fade, we lose all aggro for 10 seconds... then we get it back. So if you continue to dps while your fade is active you get all the threat you generate while it's active as well as all the threat you had before hand. Fade, like the mechanics of inner fire are still antiquated abilities that blizz hasn't done enough to update for what they call a "true dps class". However, with shadow talents that offer 52.5% passive threat reduction, it's unlikely we'll get a change to fade in our future.

Nhala · 11/21/08, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Pluff

P.P.S.Meta gem question: Chaotic Skyflare Diamond > Ember Skyflare Diamond ?

Yes, this is the meta you'll want to be using from now on.

Spearrs · 11/21/08, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Manes

Not exactly spec/glyph related, but since there is no other shadow priest thread here at the moment:

How many targets are needed for mind sear to outweigh dotting multiple mobs or single mob targeting? In heroics I've found myself dotting the first mob and only preceding to mind sear the rest if there are a total of 4+ mobs.

So far my experience has been to mind sear any trash pull with 3 or more mobs.
Mind sear is absolutely stellar as an aoe ability and I am really enjoying Fighting with Hunters for top of the meters during trash.

Xtoforas · 11/21/08, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by Xtoforas

Having just stepped into Naxx10 the past few days I would like to share some of my experiences.

I would like to revise my comments since last night I stepped into Naxx25. As a shadowpriest you can easily run a full rotation (i.e. keep Devouring Plague/SW: D on cooldown/VT always up) on most if not all bosses in a 25 man environment.

In Naxx10 I didn't have AI or BoW which really hurt as the mana returned from VT, Dispersion and Mana fiend were reduced due to it. In Naxx25 with all these buffs I never had to pop a runic potion for any boss fight.

The additional intellect (going from 11k in Naxx10 to 14k in Naxx25) from being properly buffed as well as the crit bonuses (roughly 12% in Naxx10 to 32% in Naxx25) that allow for more IST uptime is something to be mindful of when trying to make an optimal group (be it 5/10/25 man) and something that I initially overlooked in my initial post.

Althor · 11/21/08, 11:29 PM

Inner Focus explicitly states it only increases crit chance if the spell is capable of critting which our DoTs cannot.

I've macroed my Devouring Plauge with Inner Focus btw as Devouring Plague is still an expensive spell to cast even if it's cost per second isn't as bad as some other spells.

BTW, it's Glyph of Fading that I feel is more useful than Glyph of Fade. Glyph of Fade increases the duration of the Fade effect but also increases the cooldown. Glyph of Fading lowers the mana cost of Fade.

I agree 100% on the sheer uselessness of Shadow Affinity (except maybe with a really, really bad tank in a pug). Fade alone is usually enough to give the tank time to pick up loose mobs. If that fails there's Dispersion for a few more seconds. And if that's still not enough, well, I'm a Night-Elf....;P (with the current mechanics if threat ever did become an issue I'd see the hard-core guild's shadow priest all rerolling Night-Elf if Alliance).

As for mana concerns there have been a few fights where I've run into some mana issues despite having AI, BoW and MotW, but that's probably because I'm not agressive enough on my use of Shadowfiend or Dispersion and because JoW rarely sees close to a 100% uptime and I'm probably lacking Mana Spring totem etc.

One thing to keep in mind regarding Devouring Plague....don't forget that a number of guilds won't yet have Unholy Deathknights in the raid. And those Unholy Deathknights boost our Devouring Plague DPS per tick by 30% thanks to Crypt Fever. What's more, with one of their abilities or talents (I'm no expert) they can *spread* our Devouring Plague to nearby mobs turning it into a ghetto AoE DoT. When combined with Mind Sear that can become pretty potent. (As if Mind Sear wasn't potent enough).

As for Blackout with Mind Sear: My testing on beta was definitely showing Blackout procs on the test dummies.

Manes · 11/23/08, 7:12 PM

I can't make sense of the tailoring embroidery, ebonweave seems useless for dps since it's a mana regen enchant, with lightweave embroidery being the only "dps" tailor enchant. Does lightweave outweigh the dps benefits of 23 haste?

Worshaka · 11/24/08, 3:18 AM

Originally Posted by Manes

I can't make sense of the tailoring embroidery, ebonweave seems useless for dps since it's a mana regen enchant, with lightweave embroidery being the only "dps" tailor enchant. Does lightweave outweigh the dps benefits of 23 haste?

I'd really like to see some data on this, the best raid gear thread in shadowpriest.com only has the haste enchant listed... is the tailoring enchant worth it?

Bartlebum · 11/24/08, 11:55 AM

See, I really have to disagree on the beginning rotation. Casting SW: D before Mind Blast seems much more worthwhile. First, it can be casted on the run while getting in position. Second, the 2 extra Shadow Weaving stacks would benefit Mind Blast substantially. Casting Mind Blast with 4 stacks over casting SW: D with 3 stacks seems like a no brainer. Also, no point really keeping SW: D in rotation anymore since the damage it does just isn't enough. From personal experience i've only seen it do about 3-4%. I'm sure with the glyph and 4 pc. T7 it would seem more worth it but the numbers have to be run before i believe it.

I whole heartedly agree that dispersion should 100% be in every shadow priest spec. It's a single point that pays for itself. Use it on the run to gain mana back or even as an "oh shit" button if you can't get behind the block on Saph or while running between shields on Malygos.

Yes, Inner Focus won't benefit the damage done on DoT's but if you're waiting a few seconds for that dispersion to come back up or Shadowfiend CD, it's pretty worth it, especially on a MB to get the IST up and make sure replenishment is still up for the raid.

Also, I've tried a spec with Shadow Affinity and a spec without. Bottom line: useless talent. There is no point having it really in a raid. With recent threat levels, even on a fight where threat is completely reset it's still quite easy to just fade to give the tank some help.

Also, as far as the original post goes, I would weigh intelligence over spirit at least in entry gear. Just like in BC, we have mana issues unless we're geared. However, unlike in BC, most mana return buffs now occurs not on a set amount of mana but on a set percentage of your mana. So, having a bigger mana pool, for mana return purposes, would benefit a person more than having more in-combat regen. Although you can't completely ignore spirit, and with the itemization in WotLK it's almost impossible to since every gear we run into has a TON of spirit, but intellect is still very nice to look into.

Mearis · 11/25/08, 9:52 AM

Spirit increases damage though, intellect does not.

Althor · 11/25/08, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Spirit increases damage though, intellect does not.

Incorrect.

Intellect boosts your crit rate which has a direct effect on damage.
It also (by virtue of increasing your crit rate) increases the uptime on Improved Spirit Tap. Which in turn boosts your average spirit. Which of course (thanks to the glyph and the talent) boosts the amount of +spellpower you have which boosts your DPS.

Simcraft is giving the following rough "AEP" numbers for a roughly Naxx25 geared Priest:
The value of each stat compared to spellpower.
1 spellpower = 1 spellpower (obviously)
1 hit = 1.14 spellpower (up to cap)
1 crit rating = 0.61 spellpower
1 haste rating = 0.56 spellpower
1 spirit = 0.21 spellpower
1 int = 0.19 spellpower

Now obviously things aren't as simple as just that of course, but around the Naxx gear level such numbers can be a handy guide when weighing up items if you don't feel like running SimulationCraft for each new gear set.

Mearis · 11/25/08, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Althor

Incorrect.

Intellect boosts your crit rate which has a direct effect on damage.
It also (by virtue of increasing your crit rate) increases the uptime on Improved Spirit Tap. Which in turn boosts your average spirit. Which of course (thanks to the glyph and the talent) boosts the amount of +spellpower you have which boosts your DPS.

Simcraft is giving the following rough "AEP" numbers for a roughly Naxx25 geared Priest:
The value of each stat compared to spellpower.
1 spellpower = 1 spellpower (obviously)
1 hit = 1.14 spellpower (up to cap)
1 crit rating = 0.61 spellpower
1 haste rating = 0.56 spellpower
1 spirit = 0.21 spellpower
1 int = 0.19 spellpower

Now obviously things aren't as simple as just that of course, but around the Naxx gear level such numbers can be a handy guide when weighing up items if you don't feel like running SimulationCraft for each new gear set.

Excellent, thanks - you are of course correct, I didn't consider the effect of int on crit. I am very surprised to see that it is so close though: 1 spirit gives 10% damage, and improved spirit tap/shadowform glyph, that increases by a fair bit more. Our int to crit conversion used to be abysmal, so I am very surprised to see it so high.

LucidityAxel · 11/25/08, 12:14 PM

For those of you curious about what a Lightweave Embroidery can do, here's a parse from our 25-man Naxx last night:

Wow Web Stats

The holy bolt proc was about 1% of my damage, so we can ballpark it at ~30 dps.

Per simulationcraft, 23 haste rating (for a gear set much better than what I currently have) is 23 * 0.7 = 16.1 dps.

The embroidery looks to be a clear winner here.

• Snowy · 11/25/08, 12:16 PM

The reason why it's so close is spirit is a crap stat for DPS, it's not really a statement on intellect being so high.

Improved Spirit Tap is mostly garbage if you don't need the mana regen. Even if you have 700 spirit buffed, a crit is gaining you a whopping 7 spellpower.

Xantu · 11/25/08, 12:35 PM

Wouldn't Inner Focus be better than one extra point in Blackout for AoE situations if used with Mind Sear?