This is purely based on how I understand the modifiers to work on SWP. Spell power IS changed dynamically (updates with refresh) while +dmg/+crit stays with whatever you had affecting you when you cast SWP.
Yes, this is how it functions.
I'm not 100% sure if it applies with the Hodir Storm Power buff as that increase crit dmg done% rather than +crit chance% but it would seem likely to be the case.
I've yet to see it miss on the PTR (at least when I was testing with an earlier build). It's possible that they've at least fixed 1 Shadow Priest bug on the PTR.
For a while they had fixed the bug with Mind Flay being unable to be cast on anything but the current target, but they broke it with regards to haste and they've since reverted that change.
The bug were Imp. Devouring Plague doesn't benefit at all from 2piece T8 or spell power derived from spirit via Glyph of Shadow or Twisted Faith is still there, as the the similar bug with the backlash damage on dispelling Vampiric Touch also not benefiting from the spell power derived from Spirit.
Just a quick question on talent choices in discipline tree.
Why are people taking improved fort?? Are they the only priest in the raid? Would stun/fear/silence duration be of better use -> I can't count how many ulduar encounters/trash has stuns/silences/fears. -> even a small reduction is greater than a useless redundant talent. Unless you're the only priest in the raid.
There's a lot of times that someone dies during an encounter and needs to get reforted. IMHO, it's better for the spriests to take care of that. In fact on fights like Algalon I'll just cast Prayer of Fort/Shadow rather than muck around trying to find the person (I guess if I was pro I could have mouseover macros for buffing) and they might be out of range for the single target anyways.
I was wondering if any of this has changed since the original post. I was mucking about with my gear, and after some Uld runs with my guild, I have finally found some upgrades to my ilvl200 crap.
You are over 1% above the hit cap. That's why Rawr says that Azure Cloth Bindings are better for you. Concerning the gear ranking values, I think they are still a good benchmark, +-X depending on gear of course.
I have a few questions. I used to play hunter and tankadin and now I'm playing SP. There are some things that confuse me thou.
Innerfocus is a nice crit bonus and some good mana saving. Where should I use it thou? My first reaction would be on SW:P since that one stays all fight long. During fight I would link it to VT since that is our biggest dmg dealer but on forums I read MF gives better results. Why? I also see MB giving slightly worse results then MB. I also read that combining it with mind sear is best.
Question: What is the optimal combination with IF considering no mana issues?
Question: What mechanic did I miss that MF would get better results then VT? Or is that forum plain stupid?
Second problem I have are groups. When to sear? When to combine sear and DoT's? When to ignore sear? Emalon gives me low DPS if I switch to the add. On razorscale I'm not sure if I should sear or not.
Question: How many mobs would be needed so mindsearing all the way is best? When combine it with DoT's?
Question: Is the glyph of mind sear worth it?
Question: Does mind sear break CC?
Third problem is the balance between crit and haste, the stacking of crit, soft crit caps, the stacking of haste, haste caps and a 2MF/MB haste barrier.
I used to play hunter and I know my perfect speed back then for a 3:2 macro was 1.9. Do those things excist for shadowpriests? What should I aim for? How does clipping MF's trade off with loss of SP/crit?
People tend to prefer crit to keep their glyph buff up. Is there some kind of soft cap where we reach 98% average uptime?
Question: Is there a softcap in crit to keep the glyph active? How much?
Question: Can someone explain the 2MF/MB barrier if it excists?
Question: How should I trade off haste vs crit? Keep it balance? Favour one of them slightly?
IF does not add his crit bonus to our DoTs and therefore should simply not used with them. But it does work with MF.
Use multi dotting for groups up to 3. On 4 or more mobs use Mind Sear. And yes - Mind Sear will break crowd controls.
Forget any soft caps. The only cap you should think about is hit. Make yourself known with the concept of pseudo power and use any item that is superior according to it. There is really no point in stacking any of the values to any level. If you follow this you will automaticaly balance crit/haste and slightly favor crit.
I know about the PP system. I'm just not a believer it will get the best out of your CD's. 15 seconds, 24 seconds, 5,5 seconds... Those are fixed and PP doesn't tell you anything about them.
I know about the PP system. I'm just not a believer it will get the best out of your CD's. 15 seconds, 24 seconds, 5,5 seconds... Those are fixed and PP doesn't tell you anything about them.
I don't quite get what you say here? The PP values were found using Simulationcraft, it respects the different "cooldowns".
What I mean, and maybe I am wrong, is that for some levels of haste all cooldowns come together better then others. That is with mixing in the MF's.
Roughly what I'm aiming at is that I don't need to clip any MF's ever and still keep all other spells on CD all the time. This is probably wishfull thinking.
But if a speed exists for which spell after spell can be cast without collision, waiting times or clipping and that speed is known then I wanna aim for it.
I don't think PP can factor all that together. Especially not when you then start factoring in latency.
Maybe I'm thinking to much like a TBC hunter here. Might be.
Let's consider 3 gear sets. One with a bit less haste one with medium haste and one with some more.
A bit less haste results in some waiting time for spells before the third tick of MF is done to cast. A loss of (out of the blue) 0.1 seconds per DP/VT/MB
The medium haste results in faster MF and as such no waiting time on the spells. It is a clear gain of efficiency and as such an increase in DPS.
The third set of gear would make you wait for 0.1 second after MF before the nuke comes of CD. Althou it is an upgrade over the lesser haste set it is a waste of item budget compared to the medium set.
This sounds logical to me at first.
Reasons why I might be wrong might be that there might be this one time you wait 0.1 sec and a few spells later the spell is waiting 0.1 sec. And haste can't solve both.
Anyway for now I'll go with what the drops bring me and what my gut tells me.
What I mean, and maybe I am wrong, is that for some levels of haste all cooldowns come together better then others. That is with mixing in the MF's.
Roughly what I'm aiming at is that I don't need to clip any MF's ever and still keep all other spells on CD all the time. This is probably wishfull thinking.
But if a speed exists for which spell after spell can be cast without collision, waiting times or clipping and that speed is known then I wanna aim for it.
I don't think PP can factor all that together. Especially not when you then start factoring in latency.
If it makes you feel better, then by all means go for it, but recognize that you're still going to be losing a bit of DPS. The simulations take this all into account. There are no "sweet spots" for haste -- technically speaking there are spots where haste is slightly less valuable than normal, but it's still a net benefit.
This has been discussed at some length in this thread before, so there's no further point to continuing this conversation. I recommend you go back and browse the thread and look for it.
New 80 shadow priest here, working on putting together the best set of gear for heroics / pre-raid. I'm pretty new to the need for hit rating as a primary stat.
I'll put my question first so maybe you won't have to read my story, do we try and be at the hit cap as our character sheet shows out of combat, or can we count on talents such as Misery on the target (3% +hit chance)?
I've read and learned a lot, but want to clarify my understanding of +hit. I want to stay at the hit cap of course, and I can do that now with gear / buffs no problem, but some of the gear I have and will get soon is spell power improvement but I would lose a little hit.
RAWR shows me at 219 hit (correct as far as my character sheet), but 12.35% hit (I believe I should seek 10%). The mouseover shows the +hit buffs inherent in my toon, +3 Shadow Focus, +3 Misery (which would almost always be on the target), +1% Draenei racial. The mouseover also indicates a "98.35% chance to hit, 44 points under hit
cap".
I think the importance of hit is one of the most misunderstood parts of Shadow Priest theorycrafting. People don't recommend being hit capped because your DPS will magically drop to zero if you aren't capped. It's just that hit rating provides a better return on investment than other stats. If you needed 10,000 hit rating to earn a 1% increase in hit, it would no longer be worth the trouble of hit capping yourself (if it's even possible). You would be better off looking for items with spell power, crit, and haste, and accepting the fact that some of your spells will miss.
That said, spell hit is more valuable than other stats in similar measures. The number I saw quoted from shadowpriest.com was 1 hit = 1.3 spell power if you are below the hit cap, though I haven't verified this. Obviously as your total spell power and crit increase, the value of hit will increase as well. Perhaps with best in slot Ulduar gear, 1 hit = 1.5 spell power. Who knows-- that's what simulators are for. But it's in that general realm.
The point is that sometimes it's worth being under the hit cap. Suppose you could use an item that gives you an extra 30 spell power, but leaves you 10 hit rating below the cap. Using that item is a net DPS increase. If the item only gave you 12 spell power though, it wouldn't be worth it.
To answer your question though, the objective is generally to have a total of 17% spell hit when fully raid buffed. Since you get 3% from talents and another 3% from misery, this means 11% for most people (289 rating), or 10% for Draenei (263). You might be a bit over or under this because of how your particular gear situation works out.
Thanks, so the hit on the character sheet as it sits without raid buffs and such is the number to consider yourself hit capped (263 for me, a Draenei)? That's what I've been doing all along, but then when I looked at my RAWR numbers, that added confusion.
I was actually over yesterday (274), and under after switching some gear around. Even at my "young" age, I have quite a few items I can juggle around to achieve various numbers, I'm just trying to find the best combination of course. I have hit food, can enchant boots for hit, and finally re-gem items to hit any range of values - and I'm currently going for more of a burst dps optimized configuration, and I'm running dailies and questing. That's why I want to make sure I don't skimp on hit, but then want SP and crit adding stats as high as practical.
For example, I have Ebonweave gloves equipped for the hit, but I already own Spellweave ones.
Has anyone else thought about how much/little the 2pc T9 bonus does?
An extra 6 seconds on VT will only mean a dps increase by having to cast VT less often than before. I suspect the time saved on VT casts, because of cds, will likely directly translate into more MFs being cast in the same timeframe. The math modeling seems relatively straight forward, one can just calculate how many VT casts (and GCDs) are saved given any time period and assume that the time saved will translate to MFing.
Anyone else see a benefit that I may be missing?
I think the 2pc will be a higher dps increase for multi-mob dotting as it means you won't have to switch off on mobs as much.
*Obviously the less VT casts, the more mana efficient we are as well.
You missed the benefit of removing the collision between VT and MB when you prioritize VT. If VT and MB are colliding (both off cooldown at same time) you have to choose which one to delay (which causes a slight dps loss). If you prioritize VT over MB, when VT comes off CD so will MB again. With VT having an extra 6 seconds on its duration you will not see this collision as frequently.
That said, spell hit is more valuable than other stats in similar measures. The number I saw quoted from shadowpriest.com was 1 hit = 1.3 spell power if you are below the hit cap, though I haven't verified this. Obviously as your total spell power and crit increase, the value of hit will increase as well. Perhaps with best in slot Ulduar gear, 1 hit = 1.5 spell power. Who knows-- that's what simulators are for. But it's in that general realm.
Latest scaling tests from Simcraft put 1 point of hit rating worth around 2 spell power.
Has anyone else thought about how much/little the 2pc T9 bonus does?
An extra 6 seconds on VT will only mean a dps increase by having to cast VT less often than before. I suspect the time saved on VT casts, because of cds, will likely directly translate into more MFs being cast in the same timeframe. The math modeling seems relatively straight forward, one can just calculate how many VT casts (and GCDs) are saved given any time period and assume that the time saved will translate to MFing.
Anyone else see a benefit that I may be missing?
I think the 2pc will be a higher dps increase for multi-mob dotting as it means you won't have to switch off on mobs as much.
*Obviously the less VT casts, the more mana efficient we are as well.
Tests from SimCraft put it around the 120 to 130dps mark in T8 BiS. Which puts it around the same level as the 2 piece T8 set bonus.
When drawing up BiS lists at different ilvls (232, 245 and 258) I noticed that at the 232 and 245 levels the best combos had 2pc T8 + 2pc T9. It was only at the 258 level that 4pc T9 wins out (because of the better ilvl of the gear). The actual worth of the set bonuses are roughly equivalent. (i.e. 2pc T8 is worth around the same as 2pc T9 and both are slightly better than 4pc T8 and 4pc T9 which are again worth about the same).
It could be my imagination, but I believe Mind Blast is hitting harder, like significantly harder, then it used to pre-3.2. Anyone else noticing this, or is it my imagination? It could just be the greater spellpower + lucky trinket procs.
It's possible they upp'ed the coefficient, but I would have put that in the patch notes if I were Blizzard.
And it looks like Glyph of Shadow change was nixed, the old 3.1 wording was Glyph of Shadow: While in Shadowform, your spell criticals increase your spirit by 10%.
The new 3.2 wording is ominous: Glyph of Shadow: While in Shadowform, your non-periodic spell criticals increase your spirit by 10%.
Even though in the patch nodes it was specifically states it could proc from periodical strikes.
That's kind of a theoretical question (and even more since I'm not specced disc), but with the removal of the cd of DP, how much is really worth 1% hit for shadow priests ? For "mages"-like characters (in fact, characters that spam the same abilities, independantly of the debuffs on the target), it's easy to compute : 1% hit is 1% dps (or more precisely, 1% hit = 1 / (1 - %miss), so a little bit more).
But with dots, it's not really the same. A significant part of the dps is dots, and we can recast a dot that failed to hit. Therefore, all the missed that happened to dot can be "tranfered" to the lower-dps Mind-Flay (ie, we can recast the dot, and then we don't loose the dot (or less than 1 tick in fact, and we loose only the next gcd that would have been a MF / MB).
I think that hit is still just as important as it was before. I don't know if it can be equated to 1% hit is 1% more dps though. We still have our hardest hitting spell on a cooldown and having mind blast miss even once in a boss fight could cost you some pretty serious damage done, especially considering the buffs it can proc with a crit.
It comes down to the fact, how much hit do you want to sacrifice? Non-SpaceGoatSquid Shadow Priests are pretty blessed with only needing ~290 hit rating, if you drop down a full percent, thats to 263 or 27 rating. 27 rating is the same as 27 crit/haste rating, spirit, intellect or 31.5 spell power. Is it worth having a 1% miss chance for only 31.5 SP? Is it worth having a 2% chance to miss for 62 SP? I'm not entirely sure that it is. If anything, one should shoot for being 40 hit rating under the cap, replacing the hit from your gear with spell power from your gear and then eating hit food, it would come out to more Pseudo Power than just eating the spell power food. Of course, dying in a boss fight and being battle rezed would lead to some serious hit rating issues.
My point is that SPriests don't require buckets and buckets of hit like other casters. It is fairly attainable for a SPriest to be hit capped with 4-5 pieces of gear. Why not just shoot for the cap and get as close as possible or just over and deal with it? Is that 5 hit rating you're over really going to change much if it was haste/crit/spirit/intellect or whatever? People underestimate how going up even 6 ilvls can affect your DPS (going from all naxx25 gear to all uld10 for example) but across your entire gear, its a rather hefty increase. But with the hit issue, being slightly under/over the hit cap is more akin to going up 6 ilvls on a single piece of gear. Would it be nice to have that extra 5 hit? Yes. Will it drastically change your DPS numbers? No.
What I mean, and maybe I am wrong, is that for some levels of haste all cooldowns come together better then others. That is with mixing in the MF's.
Roughly what I'm aiming at is that I don't need to clip any MF's ever and still keep all other spells on CD all the time. This is probably wishfull thinking.
But if a speed exists for which spell after spell can be cast without collision, waiting times or clipping and that speed is known then I wanna aim for it.
I don't think PP can factor all that together. Especially not when you then start factoring in latency.
Maybe I'm thinking to much like a TBC hunter here. Might be.
Let's consider 3 gear sets. One with a bit less haste one with medium haste and one with some more.
A bit less haste results in some waiting time for spells before the third tick of MF is done to cast. A loss of (out of the blue) 0.1 seconds per DP/VT/MB
The medium haste results in faster MF and as such no waiting time on the spells. It is a clear gain of efficiency and as such an increase in DPS.
The third set of gear would make you wait for 0.1 second after MF before the nuke comes of CD. Althou it is an upgrade over the lesser haste set it is a waste of item budget compared to the medium set.
This sounds logical to me at first.
Reasons why I might be wrong might be that there might be this one time you wait 0.1 sec and a few spells later the spell is waiting 0.1 sec. And haste can't solve both.
Anyway for now I'll go with what the drops bring me and what my gut tells me.
The biggest thing that PP can't factor in as far as haste goes is that it becomes entirely useless any time you aren't allowed to freely cast.
On an unrelated note, it's rather strange that they'd nerf the glyph of shadow, considering it isn't even very good.
Like others have pointed out, it's almost impossible to calculate PP loss when not hit capped. Granted if you take realistic situations into account and not dummy-data. Abilities with cooldown, human delay in noticing a dot missed and reapplying it. You should go for it almost regardless. Don't be a single point under hit cap in terms of raiding.
07/31/09, 1:42 AM
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