I would think VE is still better (collectively for 5 people) than rolling Rejuvs on each member of the party though. Besides, shouldn't you be using Mind Sear most of the time?
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
One person being higher isn't a big deal. It really isn't. Looking back at the logs for the week before last (since that one was choppy due to dc's), here's the average healing done by Leeching Swarm ticks for everyone in my party:
Siawyn: 2475
Meaningfu(warlock): 1189
Deathplague(warlock): 2637 (assuming he got PC a few times, cursory look shows he took 33 ticks of PC damage)
Spectear(disc priest): 2069
Kadrok(ret pal): 2212
For comparison, rogues with JoL + enhancement healing stream end up healing him for mid-1500s per tick. Here's the Leeching Swarm comparison: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Obviously nothing beats a resto shaman's healing stream totem, as evidenced by the people in Gurgthock's party. But unless you're carrying 5 resto shaman...
Looking into the logs a bit more, Meaningful never got hit by PC at all, so the 1189 figure is a good benchmark. Keep in mind this is with me having 2/2 Imp VE. I think it's actually necessary if you plan only around VE healing, because 3% of 6k dps is only 180 hps. 5% is 300 hps which is just right. You use Mind Sear as necessary to turn the healing up or down as the situation warrants, I watch party health pretty closely. If people get under 1k, I stop Mind Searing until they edge up slightly, especially if dot refreshes are coming up.
I think one person healing Anub for a bit more (and it's hardly a shitload) than optimal is hardly a big deal when you take an entire group and completely eliminate any chance at LS death. The biggest key in this fight (IMHO) is getting your groups set up so that LS damage is taken care of by as many passives as you can so that you literally forget about it and your healers can concentrate strictly on tanks and PC.
I'm not sure if that would be a net gain over what I do. Usually I dot up all 4 adds with VT/SWP as they're arriving, then start searing. It would get a lot more complicated adding VE into that mix. Basically the decision just means I drop one Sear for a Mind Blast. Plus that helps keep Replenishment going, which can be a concern during AOE phases. Only Ret pals continue to provide Replenishment in those cases, as spriests and locks are AOE'ing.
Siawyn, I noticed you said that you dotted up the adds with VT and SWP as they came in and then I am assuming you would target Anubarak and Mind Sear - thus hitting all the adds. Or would you target an add and start to Mind Sear, thus splashing on Anubarak? What are most priests doing in this situation?
Last night in our 20 attempts on Anubarak, I tried a number of different multi-dotting methods to determine how to maximize my damage output on the fight. I found that dotting adds with both VT and SWP before Mind Searing lead to me doing less damage done than just putting VT on each add then Mind Searing. I don't have 2pc T9 yet, but once I do, I doubt that the adds will live the duration of VT. Right now they are dying 3-6 seconds or so after VT falls off.
My reasoning behind this casting method is that as the adds are running it, it is very easy to target each one and cast only VT then immediately begin searing on Anubarak. The logs from last night are (Here)
Pulls 1-12 I basically just kept my full dots running on Anub and spammed Mind Sear on him when the adds came out. Pulls 13 and 14 I tried using VT and SWP on each add as they got in to position but I found it too difficult to put both dots on every add so from pulls 15-20 I used the VT only approach.
SWP on adds is a waste, SWP is such a bad DoT.
You only cast it cause its instant, and on targets where you can refresh it.
On Anub is definitely a dps loss.
VT on 4 adds and MS while taqrgeting an add works best.
In P3 i keep VE on Anub and 1 add during AoE.
Siawyn, I noticed you said that you dotted up the adds with VT and SWP as they came in and then I am assuming you would target Anubarak and Mind Sear - thus hitting all the adds. Or would you target an add and start to Mind Sear, thus splashing on Anubarak? What are most priests doing in this situation?
Last night in our 20 attempts on Anubarak, I tried a number of different multi-dotting methods to determine how to maximize my damage output on the fight. I found that dotting adds with both VT and SWP before Mind Searing lead to me doing less damage done than just putting VT on each add then Mind Searing. I don't have 2pc T9 yet, but once I do, I doubt that the adds will live the duration of VT. Right now they are dying 3-6 seconds or so after VT falls off.
My reasoning behind this casting method is that as the adds are running it, it is very easy to target each one and cast only VT then immediately begin searing on Anubarak. The logs from last night are (Here)
Pulls 1-12 I basically just kept my full dots running on Anub and spammed Mind Sear on him when the adds came out. Pulls 13 and 14 I tried using VT and SWP on each add as they got in to position but I found it too difficult to put both dots on every add so from pulls 15-20 I used the VT only approach.
The VT only approach is definitely the best way to manage the adds, the sooner you get it on all four the better, then spam Mind Sear. Taking the time to throw a SWP on each will lower your overall damage as it's another four GCD, the damage from SWP is not nearly as good as VT especially with 2pc t9 bonus, and that's time you're wasting where you could have already begun your Sears.
As for which mob to base the cast of Mind Sear off of, even using the Mind Sear glyph in place of Mind Flay as I do for this encounter, I find that you can miss the edge adds if you base it off of an add. It depends on how good your guild is at grouping up all of the mobs for maximum AE potential. I will adjust the target accordingly, depending on if they are all close enough together or not. In my mind, it is ideal to base it off of an add since you will be doing damage to Anub - and there is enough AE going around to where the damage missing from your target mob will be largely unnoticeable.
Make sure you're keeping dots on Anub while you Sear though, don't want to lose Misery unless you're rolling with a Moonkin.
Hmm - I usually just keep all 3 dots rolling on anub and spam mind sear, without bothering to VT each individual add.
I guess it depends how AoE heavy is the raid though.
I haven't been part of my guild's recent Anub kills, but our other Spriest jumped from about 7k to about 9k dps within 2 weeks by VTing each add as it came in--I'm sure part of it was RNG, but it's a noticeable jump to hit them as they walk in, so long as you keep dots up on Anub. I'd definitely recommend trying it out for yourself and seeing how it goes.
Notice how his damage contribution % from VT almost triples in between the 2 attempts. Nearly 2k dps is definitely not writable off as just RNG or an increase from gear.
That's true, but deciding how much damage to aoe versus single target depends on the particular make up of your guild. Obviously aoe'ing will inflate your damage.
Back to 3.3 chat - it is interesting to note that on a pragmatic level, unless the haste rolling bug is fixed, every priest should pretty much switch to engineering instantly. Even if haste is fixed, engineering gives 340 haste for 12 seconds every minute (with a loss of 28 spellpower). Tailoring gives 295 for 15 seconds every minute (with a loss of 23 haste). JC gives (39-23)*3 spell power constantly.
Given that haste is equal to 1.3 spell power:
Tailoring is (295*15/60)-23*1.3 - 44 spell damage
Engineering is (340*12/60)*1.3-28 - 60 spell damage
JC is (39-23)*3 - 48 spell damage
Given that engineering gives you all sorts of other perks, EVEN IF haste rolling on SW: P is fixed, engineering becomes the best PvE profession by far.
I'm pretty sure that Vampiric Touch is more damage per cast second than Mind Sear on 4 targets. It also puts Misery up on the targets, which is a raid DPS increase. I'm not sure if Shadow Word: Pain is worth casting, as it's less damage and less likely to tick for the full 18 seconds. I think 4x touch, then Mind Sear is the correct opening.
VT is definitely more damage per GCD than Mind Sear.
From last night, VT running the full 7 ticks is 25161 damage. For Mind Sear we'll assume my global cooldown is 1.3 seconds and that Mind Sear ticks every 0.8 seconds. With that, each GCD is worth 17262 Mind Sear damage. SWP was only 12272 for the full 6 ticks.
Tailoring is (295*15/60)-23*1.3 - 44 spell damage
Engineering is (340*12/60)*1.3-28 - 60 spell damage
JC is (39-23)*3 - 48 spell damage
Given that engineering gives you all sorts of other perks, EVEN IF haste rolling on SW: P is fixed, engineering becomes the best PvE profession by far.
I'm pretty sure that Vampiric Touch is more damage per cast second than Mind Sear on 4 targets. It also puts Misery up on the targets, which is a raid DPS increase. I'm not sure if Shadow Word: Pain is worth casting, as it's less damage and less likely to tick for the full 18 seconds. I think 4x touch, then Mind Sear is the correct opening.
Misery on your four adds is also a personal DPS increase as well, since it's a damage modifier (15%) for Mind Sear. Well worth it for everyone.
Haste over spellpower - at what point of spellpower does haste become 1.3 (for 3.3), or is it static? In Sunwell, I do believe the number was 1400 spellpower before haste became a 1 for 1 conversion - correct me if I am mistaken. I'm sure those of us who raid regularly will be at the threshold already, but I'm curious to know if there is a threshold.
I did a full profession comparison in this post a couple pages back. Gist of it is that
Tailoring < LW/Alch/Insc < BS < JC < Engy <<< Engy w/ SWP
Originally Posted by Lyricals
Misery on your four adds is also a personal DPS increase as well, since it's a damage modifier (15%) for Mind Sear. Well worth it for everyone.
Haste over spellpower - at what point of spellpower does haste become 1.3 (for 3.3), or is it static? In Sunwell, I do believe the number was 1400 spellpower before haste became a 1 for 1 conversion - correct me if I am mistaken. I'm sure those of us who raid regularly will be at the threshold already, but I'm curious to know if there is a threshold.
First part of your post is false. Misery passively increases the spellpower coefficient of MB, MF, and MS; it doesn't increase the damage dealt to a target under its effect.
Right now, haste outscales SP, but in our BiS 3.2 gear. You should run simcraft (or Rawr, but I'm not certain how accurate it is with current haste levels) to determine your scaling factors to decide when to gem haste or SP.
... It also puts Misery up on the targets, which is a raid DPS increase. ...
Adds are almost universally level 82, as are Nerubian Burrowers, so no affect on raid DPS. I assume Tedv is speaking of multi-dotting in a general sense for multi-boss fights, but I thought I'd clarify that this statement doesn't apply in the specific scenario of Anub'arak.
Adds are almost universally level 82, as are Nerubian Burrowers, so no affect on raid DPS. I assume Tedv is speaking of multi-dotting in a general sense for multi-boss fights, but I thought I'd clarify that this statement doesn't apply in the specific scenario of Anub'arak.
While that is true, a popular option for increasing RDPS is having your disc priests (or any healing priests) Mind Sear the adds until phase 3 comes up. Misery will help them hit a bit more since they won't be running with +hit on their gear.
Some more thoughts on haste in 3.3 over at shadowpriest.com • View topic - Best Raiding Gear optimized for 3.3 Changes
Seems like the value of haste is going to be around 1.05-1.1 once you reach some healthy levels of haste (+800) which is very easy once we actually start gearing for haste over crit. This also means you probably never want to gem for pure haste and perhaps keep +23 sp gems in red sockets.
Seems like the value of haste is going to be around 1.05-1.1 once you reach some healthy levels of haste (+800) which is very easy once we actually start gearing for haste over crit. This also means you probably never want to gem for pure haste and perhaps keep +23 sp gems in red sockets.
Haste value around 1.1 is actually very convenient, since that gives you 23PP from both [Runed Cardinal Ruby] and [Reckless Ametrine]. In 3.3, we will only hate blue sockets, and even they will be worth matching with a bonus around 7PP or so.
Interesting bit in that shadowpriest.com thread... Haste and SP are both more valuable to gem than hit. Any idea why that would be? Just because dots will be such a huge % of our damage and we lost little from missing them and mind flay?
Hit carries less of a PP value because it is less of an overall contribution to our DPS when compared to other stats that we scale well with.
Prior to 3.3 it could be said that we scaled really well with Spell Power and Hit (to the cap) thus those carried high values. In 3.3 we scale well with Haste and Spell Power really well and of course Hit to the cap still, but since this is weighting is more distributed, hit has less intrinsic value. Of course, it is still important to focus on reaching hit cap but items that have only hit and spell power will most likely be worth less in a Pseudo Power sense than items that have a more even distribution of stats that we scale well with.
Of course, it is still important to focus on reaching hit cap but items that have only hit and spell power will most likely be worth less in a Pseudo Power sense than items that have a more even distribution of stats that we scale well with.
No its not important at all to reach the cap, if you stay below the cap
with the best gear available to you, more power to you.
The lower +hit you have, the more flexible you will be when upgrading.
Most likely you will reach the cap naturally, cause the way Blizzard distributes
there stats, the best items will have a mix of 3 most valuable stats, those
stats are haste, sp, hit.
In 3.2 its ok to use a +hit gem when you're for example 20 +hit short.
In 3.3 this is out of the question, never ever gem for +hit.
With the nature of the scaling factors still changing around as the final values are determined, I think that a good rule of thumb is still to aim for hit cap regardless of the pseudo power associated with hit at this time. Maybe my brain is just stuck in the "a missed spell does no damage" school of thought.
One argument for reaching the hit cap is that you don't have to react to a spell missing. When I am recasting VT I know it will land so I can count on being able to cast my next spell when the cast finishes. If you aren't hit capped you either have to wait to know VT landed before casting your next spell thus delaying your next cast or deal with the fact that VT may be down for up to 2.5ish seconds (or whatever your mind flay channeling time is) assuming you don't interrupt your next cast. Even if you do interrupt your next cast VT will be down for an additional (cast time of VT) + (your reaction time).
Remember that simcraft can make these decisions instantaneously. I wonder if simcraft adds in a small penalty to account for this in the case of a miss or not. Perhaps it should? If it did I suspect hit's PP would be higher.
11/02/09, 9:15 PM
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