Shadowpriest Theory Craft - 3.2.2 Edition! - Page 39

Aujalyn · 11/15/09, 9:10 PM

Thus expecting any sort of compensation in the form of DPS buffs elsewhere is going to be pointless. They nerfed us because they felt our DPS needed a nerf.

Since there are other hybrids still really high I'm surprised they feel our dps is too high without exploiting the bug. What little i did on the PTR and what logs i've seen from PTR raids, i just never saw it, but i guess who knows what this would be like once we're all in T10 and in i264+ gear.

c4tuna · 11/16/09, 2:30 AM

Originally Posted by Aujalyn

Since there are other hybrids still really high I'm surprised they feel our dps is too high without exploiting the bug. What little i did on the PTR and what logs i've seen from PTR raids, i just never saw it, but i guess who knows what this would be like once we're all in T10 and in i264+ gear.

It's understandable that the change may not present itself readily at first since it changes our whole style of dpsing with more time spend reapplying dots, so some time spent readjusting is to be expected. Beyond that, our t10 4pc set bonus is overbudget, not only because of the dps increase to mind flay, but also because it smooths up our rotation to create fewer conflicts, so getting it will be important for our dps.

Endahl · 11/16/09, 5:38 AM

Originally Posted by Aujalyn

Since there are other hybrids still really high I'm surprised they feel our dps is too high without exploiting the bug.

I'm guessing you might be referring to simcraft sample output numbers here. Time will tell how indicative of real DPS those are, but even if they're right on the money it puts us in a very good place among caster hybrids. The simcraft numbers also put us in a very good place in general, since the top DPS specs are within a very narrow margin of each other. A 350 dps margin means next to nothing when you're throwing around numbers like 10k+ dps.

The hybrid specs that are higher are melee, both in parses I've seen and in simcraft output -- which then means you need to consider things like movement on particular fights to get a feel for actual (E)DPS. If you take kiting shadows on Lana'thel as a melee for example, the lost DPS time will likely be significantly higher than if you do it as a ranged class, particularly one with strong dots.

Our T10 4-piece bonus, as Zød mentioned, is overbudget, and also further mitigates DPS lost in movement phases.

Loremaster · 11/16/09, 7:50 PM

My only worry on the new patch is that you can use the VE heal effect on multiple targets anymore, it was a nice boost when a group is a bit light on healing..

Graf · 11/16/09, 8:13 PM

Originally Posted by Loremaster

My only worry on the new patch is that you can use the VE heal effect on multiple targets anymore, it was a nice boost when a group is a bit light on healing..

I guess you mean "can't"...anyway, it only got better, healing is the same
but you don't loose the GCD casting VE on multiple targets.

Only nerf is that you can't use it in combination with MindSear, to prevent potential
abuse in futur fights. Which is kinda nonsense with the introduction of the AoE cap,
but who cares :-)

mosebro · 11/16/09, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Loremaster

My only worry on the new patch is that you can use the VE heal effect on multiple targets anymore, it was a nice boost when a group is a bit light on healing..

My experience on the PRT is only showing it as possibly becoming almost OP considering the healing comes from direct damage. Putting dots up on 3-5 targets leads to a lot of healing. So you will be doing more dps from saving the GCD casting it, and get a ton of healing back. I am not saying this is the most effective way to dps, but it leads to a ton of heals.

c4tuna · 11/17/09, 1:03 AM

Originally Posted by mosebro

My experience on the PRT is only showing it as possibly becoming almost OP considering the healing comes from direct damage. Putting dots up on 3-5 targets leads to a lot of healing. So you will be doing more dps from saving the GCD casting it, and get a ton of healing back. I am not saying this is the most effective way to dps, but it leads to a ton of heals.

Multi-Dotting IS typically the most effective way to DPS. With 2 or 3 targets, apply SW:P, roll VT, refresh with MF on all targets, and roll DP and cast MB on the main target. It's really our strong suit.

Dekkar · 11/17/09, 3:55 PM

mosebro, I'm not sure what you're talking about, but VE healing has nothing to do with whether the ability is direct damage or delivered via DoT. The only restriction on it currently on the PTR is that it does not proc off multi target shadow damage spells (of which category only Mind Sear falls into).

Yes, you do get a fair bit of healing back from multi-DoT situations, but it's highly unlikely that will be considered OP, as the time it takes to maintain those DoTs effectively caps you on the maximum healing you can generate. Once you pass a certain number of targets, you will not be able to maintain VT+SW:P on all of them, especially with haste now affecting VT and Devouring Plague.

c4tuna · 11/17/09, 5:08 PM

Assuming the t9 2pc set bonus (VT at 7 ticks), the most amount of targets you can keep VT ticking on would be 14--the cast time is 1/2 the time per tick. A reasonably well-geared shadow priest will see average VT ticks of ~3500 including critrate and raid buffs. That's 1167 DPS for each VT. If you keep 14 VTs rolling flawlessly, that's 16333 DPS. Healing received from talented VE would equal 4083 HPS to yourself and 816 for each of your party members. Very effective? Yes. Imba? No. It's limited by the number of targets, how well you can roll your highest DPS dot, and of course the fact that in most situations you won't need 4k HPS because if you try to tank like this you'll get one-shot :P If there was another mimiron's head or Maulgar-type fight with about 12 rogues to ToTT onto you, then maybe it would get looked at, but its effects cap pretty quickly since if you die, you're likely taking damage in excess of 4k HPS (and even ~2.5k hps which we would get from single-target dps).

For the sake of thoroughness, once we get our Icecrown gear, let's say our VTs are ticking for 4500 and we can keep 10 rolling because we're in t10. You'll be getting 3750 HPS back from it. Our t9 2pc is a 40% bonus to VT, so in multi-dotting situations I can see us switching 2 pieces on very easily.

Looking at the stats of the T10 available on MMO-Champion.com, it looks to me like we're going to wear 4pc and replace the pants with the crafted ones.

Althor · 11/18/09, 4:39 AM

Originally Posted by c4tuna

Looking at the stats of the T10 available on MMO-Champion.com, it looks to me like we're going to wear 4pc and replace the pants with the crafted ones.

So far this would seem correct. I've gone through and done up a first pass of an ilvl 264 BiS gear set for 3.3.0.
Obviously there's a lot of gear that hasn't yet been discovered, and I'm limiting the gearset to no gear from the heroic version of ICC 25 (Heroic ToC 25 is allowed).

You can find a link to the SimulationCraft profile here: Priest_T10_13_00_58_264.simc - simulationcraft - Project Hosting on Google Code
Or browse it here:

#!./simc 

priest=Priest_T10_13_00_58_264
origin=http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=18052647
level=80
race=night_elf
talents=http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=5&tal=0503203000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000325023051223010323152301351
glyphs=mind_flay/shadow_word_pain/shadow/fortitude/fading/levitate
actions=flask,type=frost_wyrm
actions+=/food,type=fish_feast
actions+=/fortitude
actions+=/divine_spirit
actions+=/inner_fire
actions+=/shadow_form
actions+=/vampiric_embrace,P330=1
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/wild_magic_potion,P330=0
actions+=/speed_potion,P330=1
actions+=/shadow_fiend
actions+=/shadow_word_pain,shadow_weaving_wait=1
actions+=/vampiric_touch
actions+=/devouring_plague
actions+=/mind_blast
actions+=/vampiric_embrace,P330=0
actions+=/mind_flay
actions+=/shadow_word_death,moving=1
actions+=/dispersion
head=sanctified_crimson_acolyte_cowl,stats=123int_123sta_84haste_161sp_108crit_287armor,gems=chaotic_skyflare_12sp_10spi_9sp,enchant=30sp_20crit
neck=amulet_of_the_silent_eulogy,stats=69int_69sta_60hit_60haste_106sp,gems=0sp
shoulders=sanctified_crimson_acolyte_mantle,stats=92int_92sta_72haste_132sp_80crit_265armor,gems=12sp_10haste_5sp,enchant=24sp_15crit
chest=sanctified_crimson_acolyte_raiments,stats=123int_123sta_100haste_171sp_100crit_354armor,gems=23sp_12sp_10haste_7sp,enchant=10all
waist=crushing_coldwraith_belt,stats=92int_92sta_80haste_132sp_72crit_199armor,gems=23sp_23sp
legs=leggings_of_woven_death,stats=123int_123sta_108haste_162sp_84crit_309armor,gems=23sp_12sp_10haste_12sp_10spi_9sp,enchant=50sp_20spi
feet=plague_scientists_boots,stats=92int_92sta_80haste_132sp_72crit_243armor,gems=23sp,enchant=15sta
wrists=bindings_of_dark_essence,stats=152armor_43hit_57crit_91sp_65sta_65int,gems=12sp_10hit_5sp,enchant=30sp
hands=sanctified_crimson_acolyte_handwraps,stats=92int_92sta_72hit_132sp_80crit_221armor,gems=23sp,enchant=28sp
finger1=ring_of_rapid_ascent,stats=69int_69sta_60haste_106sp_60crit,gems=0sp,enchant=23sp
finger2=band_of_deplorable_violence,stats=53crit_91sp_65sta_65int_50spi,gems=12sp_10hit_5sp,enchant=23sp
trinket1=dislodged_foreign_object,stats=155haste,gems=0sp,equip=onspellcast_105sp_10stack_10%_20dur_45cd_2tick
trinket2=reign_of_the_unliving,stats=168sp,gems=0sp,equip=onspelldirectcrit_2117fire_3stack_2.0cd
back=jainas_radiance,stats=182armor_65crit_57haste_105sp_74sta_74int,gems=23sp_5sp,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
main_hand=blade_of_tarasque,stats=51hit_57haste_692sp_48sta_65int,gems=23sp,enchant=63sp,weapon=dagger_1.80speed_108.12min_342.12max
off_hand=chalice_of_benedictus,stats=43hit_51haste_80sp_58sta_55int,gems=12sp_10haste_5sp
ranged=corpseimpaling_spike,stats=39int_39sta_34haste_60sp_34crit,gems=0sp
# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=10
# gear_agility=10
# gear_stamina=1249
# gear_intellect=1248
# gear_spirit=101
# gear_spell_power=3122
# gear_hit_rating=289
# gear_crit_rating=921
# gear_haste_rating=1038
# gear_armor=2212
# meta_gem=chaotic_skyflare
# tier10_2pc_caster=1
# tier10_4pc_caster=1
# back=jainas_radiance,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
# main_hand=blade_of_tarasque,weapon=dagger_1.80speed_108.12min_342.12max

Here's the results from comparing this profile with the BiS T9 profile (with no Demo lock):

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft release 3.3.0 ( iterations=10000, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 )

DPS Ranking:
  20397 100.0%  Raid
  10902  53.4%  Priest_T10_13_00_58_264
   9515  46.6%  Priest_T9_13_00_58_258

Player: Priest_T10_13_00_58_264 night_elf priest shadow 80
  DPS: 10902.0  Error=3.1  Range=588  DPR=40.2  RPS=271.5/243.1  (mana)
  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=18052647
  Core Stats:  strength=298|49(10)  agility=316|65(10)  stamina=1847|1368(1249)  intellect=1679|1422(1248)  spirit=447|282(101)  health=24790|20460  mana=28768|24913
  Spell Stats:  power=3836|3178(3122)  hit=11.02%|11.02%(289)  crit=36.38%|29.84%(921)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=42.39%|31.66%(1038)  mp5=0|0(0)
  Attack Stats  power=1162|39(0)  hit=8.81%|8.81%(289)  crit=34.31%|24.49%(921)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=62.73%|31.66%(1038)
  Defense Stats:  armor=8189|2342(2212)  blockv=149|25(0)  defense=0|0(0)  miss=1.70%|1.70%  dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
  Glyphs: mind_flay/shadow_word_pain/shadow/fortitude/fading/levitate
  Priorities:
    flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/fortitude/divine_spirit/inner_fire/shadow_form
    vampiric_embrace,P330=1/snapshot_stats/wild_magic_potion,P330=0/speed_potion,P330=1/shadow_fiend
    shadow_word_pain,shadow_weaving_wait=1/vampiric_touch/devouring_plague/mind_blast/vampiric_embrace,P330=0
    mind_flay/shadow_word_death,moving=1/dispersion
  Actions:
    devouring_plague       Count= 18.0|17.23sec  DPE= 32982|18%  DPET= 28321  DPR=  36.4  pDPS=1976  Miss=0.00%  Hit=4159|3599|5006  Crit= 6429| 5561| 7734|44.4%  TickCount=138  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=2250|1912|2712  CritTick=4704|3996|5667|55.4%
    mind_blast             Count= 37.9|7.93sec  DPE=  8014| 9%  DPET=  7204  DPR=  15.5  pDPS=1013  Miss=0.00%  Hit=5250|4277|6121  Crit=10972| 8940|12794|48.3%
    mind_flay              Count=105.2|2.83sec  DPE= 12782|41%  DPET=  6629  DPR=  46.6  pDPS=4486  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=315  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=2798|2117|3389  CritTick=5848|4425|7082|48.4%
    reign_of_the_unliving  Count= 29.7|9.94sec  DPE=  2792| 3%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 277  Miss=2.96%  Hit=2316|2316|2316  Crit= 3578| 3578| 3578|43.1%
    shadow_word_pain       Count=  1.0|0.00sec  DPE=267441| 8%  DPET=232558  DPR= 335.1  pDPS= 892  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=98  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=1705|1561|2021  CritTick=3563|3262|4223|55.4%
    vampiric_touch         Count= 27.3|11.14sec  DPE= 22524|19%  DPET= 20236  DPR=  38.8  pDPS=2051  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=134  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=2864|2359|3509  CritTick=5986|4930|7333|55.4%
   shadow_fiend  (DPS=295.1)
    melee                  Count= 26.0|7.79sec  DPE=  2393| 2%  DPET=  1972  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 208  Miss=0.00%  Hit=2245|2029|2671  Crit= 4484| 4059| 5341|12.9%  Glance=1683|24.0%
  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
  Constant Buffs: inner_fire/inner_fire_armor/mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/shadow_form/vampiric_embrace
  Dynamic Buffs:
    bloodlust                : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%
    dislodged_foreign_object : start=6.6   refresh=0.0    interval= 48.7|48.7   uptime=42%  trigger=10%
    glyph_of_shadow          : start=1.1   refresh=177.4  interval=137.6|1.7    uptime=99%  benefit=99%
    improved_spirit_tap      : start=7.0   refresh=87.5   interval= 42.0|3.1    uptime=93%  trigger=55%
    lightweave_embroidery    : start=5.0   refresh=0.0    interval= 61.0|61.0   uptime=25%  trigger=35%
    shadow_weaving           : start=1.0   refresh=520.9  interval=  0.0|0.6    uptime=100%  benefit=100%
  Procs:
    173.8 |   1.78sec : judgement_of_wisdom
     29.7 |   9.94sec : reign_of_the_unliving
  Gains:
     6118.7 : blessing_of_wisdom         (overflow=6.4%)
     3510.6 : glyph_of_shadow_word_pain  (overflow=7.1%)
    28768.0 : initial_mana             
    12831.6 : judgement_of_wisdom        (overflow=4.4%)
    16147.4 : replenishment              (overflow=6.3%)
    19044.5 : shadow_fiend               (overflow=49.1%)
    15227.0 : spirit_intellect_regen     (overflow=6.2%)

Player: Priest_T9_13_00_58_258 night_elf priest shadow 80
  DPS: 9514.7  Error=2.9  Range=544  DPR=42.3  RPS=225.1/216.2  (mana)
  Origin: http://profiler.wowhead.com/?profile=13043848
  Core Stats:  strength=298|49(10)  agility=316|65(10)  stamina=1760|1289(1173)  intellect=1536|1292(1118)  spirit=717|528(347)  health=23920|19670  mana=26623|22963
  Spell Stats:  power=3960|3297(3192)  hit=11.32%|11.32%(297)  crit=33.32%|26.86%(820)  penetration=0|0(0)  haste=27.94%|18.30%(600)  mp5=0|0(0)
  Attack Stats  power=1162|39(0)  hit=9.06%|9.06%(297)  crit=32.11%|22.29%(820)  expertise=0.00|0.00(0)  penetration=0.00%|0.00%(0)  haste=46.22%|18.30%(600)
  Defense Stats:  armor=8133|2286(2156)  blockv=149|25(0)  defense=0|0(0)  miss=1.70%|1.70%  dodge=0.00%|0.00%(0)  parry=0.00%|0.00%(0)  block=0.00%|0.00%(0) crit=13.90%|13.90%
  Glyphs: mind_flay/shadow_word_pain/shadow/fortitude/fading/levitate
  Priorities:
    flask,type=frost_wyrm/food,type=fish_feast/fortitude/divine_spirit/inner_fire/shadow_form
    vampiric_embrace,P330=1/snapshot_stats/wild_magic_potion,P330=0/speed_potion,P330=1/shadow_fiend
    shadow_word_pain,shadow_weaving_wait=1/vampiric_touch/devouring_plague/mind_blast/vampiric_embrace,P330=0
    mind_flay/shadow_word_death,moving=1/dispersion
  Actions:
    devouring_plague       Count= 16.1|19.09sec  DPE= 31178|18%  DPET= 24946  DPR=  34.4  pDPS=1675  Miss=0.00%  Hit=4114|3693|4341  Crit= 6358| 5706| 6708|41.3%  TickCount=125  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=2225|1962|2352  CritTick=4649|4100|4915|47.3%
    mind_blast             Count= 35.2|8.54sec  DPE=  7806|10%  DPET=  6451  DPR=  15.1  pDPS= 918  Miss=0.00%  Hit=5220|4367|5435  Crit=10910| 9127|11359|45.5%
    mind_flay              Count= 85.3|3.50sec  DPE= 12886|39%  DPET=  5198  DPR=  47.0  pDPS=3666  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=255  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=2787|2176|2919  CritTick=5826|4547|6100|50.3%
    reign_of_the_unliving  Count= 53.4|11.08sec  DPE=  2609| 5%  DPET=     1  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 465  Miss=2.64%  Hit=2188|2059|2316  Crit= 3380| 3181| 3578|40.2%
    shadow_word_pain       Count=  1.0|0.00sec  DPE=251038| 9%  DPET=211216  DPR= 314.6  pDPS= 838  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=98  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=1697|1599|1766  CritTick=3548|3341|3690|47.3%
    vampiric_touch         Count= 18.0|17.03sec  DPE= 29289|19%  DPET= 24172  DPR=  50.5  pDPS=1760  Miss=0.00%  TickCount=122  MissTick=0.0%  Tick=2844|2428|3002  CritTick=5944|5074|6275|47.2%
   shadow_fiend  (DPS=272.7)
    melee                  Count= 26.0|7.83sec  DPE=  2228| 2%  DPET=  1836  DPR=   0.0  pDPS= 193  Miss=0.00%  Hit=2087|2062|2203  Crit= 4174| 4124| 4407|13.1%  Glance=1565|23.9%
  Constant Buffs: arcane_brilliance/blessing_of_kings/blessing_of_might/blessing_of_wisdom/divine_spirit/fortitude
  Constant Buffs: inner_fire/inner_fire_armor/mark_of_the_wild/replenishment/shadow_form/vampiric_embrace
  Dynamic Buffs:
    bloodlust             : start=1.0   refresh=0.0    interval=  0.0|0.0    uptime=13%
    glyph_of_shadow       : start=1.3   refresh=149.5  interval=129.4|2.0    uptime=99%  benefit=99%
    improved_spirit_tap   : start=8.5   refresh=71.5   interval= 34.9|3.7    uptime=90%  trigger=56%
    lightweave_embroidery : start=5.0   refresh=0.0    interval= 61.3|61.3   uptime=25%  trigger=35%
    shadow_weaving        : start=1.0   refresh=425.3  interval=  0.0|0.7    uptime=100%  benefit=100%
  Procs:
    158.1 |   2.04sec : judgement_of_wisdom
     53.4 |  11.08sec : reign_of_the_unliving
  Gains:
     5836.8 : blessing_of_wisdom         (overflow=10.7%)
     3385.6 : glyph_of_shadow_word_pain  (overflow=10.2%)
    26623.0 : initial_mana             
    11377.3 : judgement_of_wisdom        (overflow=6.8%)
    14284.6 : replenishment              (overflow=10.4%)
     7728.3 : shadow_fiend               (overflow=77.7%)
    22188.6 : spirit_intellect_regen     (overflow=9.9%)

Auras and De-Buffs:
  Constant: abominations_might/arcane_empowerment/battle_shout/bleeding/blood_frenzy/blood_plague/crypt_fever
  Constant: curse_of_elements/devotion_aura/earth_and_moon/ebon_plaguebringer/elemental_oath/expose_armor/faerie_fire
  Constant: ferocious_inspiration/flametongue_totem/frost_fever/heart_of_the_crusader/horn_of_winter/hunters_mark
  Constant: improved_faerie_fire/improved_moonkin/improved_scorch/improved_shadow_bolt/infected_wounds/insect_swarm
  Constant: judgement_of_wisdom/judgements_of_the_just/leader_of_the_pack/mana_spring_totem/mangle/master_poisoner
  Constant: misery/moonkin/poisoned/rampage/sanctified_retribution/savage_combat/strength_of_earth/sunder_armor
  Constant: swift_retribution/thunder_clap/totem_of_wrath/totem_of_wrath_debuff/trauma/trueshot/unleashed_rage
  Constant: windfury_totem/winters_chill/wrath_of_air
  Dynamic:

Waiting:
    All players active 100% of the time.

Baseline Performance:
  TotalEvents   = 28717255
  MaxEventQueue = 24
  TargetHealth  = 6116551
  SimSeconds    = 3000345
  CpuSeconds    = 49.357
  SpeedUp       = 60789

RNG global Actual/Expected Roll=0.999661 Range=1.000000 Gauss=1.000000

i.e. The Tier-10 set is 10902 DPS and the Tier-9 set is 9515 DPS.
As more gear is discovered this should rise.

There were some other gearsets I considered, and simmed, but this set came out on top.

As for scale factors, I ran another sim with again both this set and the BiS T9 set along with a T9 BiS Demo Warlock (for the Demonic Pact buff).
Here are the scale factors for the Priests:

Priest_T10_13_00_58_264:
                   Int      Spi      SP       Hit      Crit     Haste
Scale Factors      0.5412   1.2941   2.0935   3.8325   1.7216   2.1933
Normalized   	   0.2585   0.6181   1.0000   1.8307   0.8223   1.0477

Priest_T9_13_00_58_258:
                   Int      Spi      SP       Hit      Crit     Haste
Scale Factors 	   0.4863   1.1060   1.7782   3.0679   1.5586   1.9380
Normalized   	   0.2735   0.6220   1.0000   1.7253   0.8765   1.0899

c4tuna · 11/18/09, 5:56 AM

How long has Simcraft had a GUI? I was messing around with it a couple months ago and I remember it being confusing as balls. I ran a couple tests on my character (not great geared but mostly 245's).

(As a suggestion: Have Simcraft check professions vs. available enchants. I still have ring enchants on from when I switched from Ench to Engi, and I had to manually erase them to get accurate numbers.)

Anyway, here's what I saw. My 3.2.2 DPS was 7073, and my 3.3 DPS is 8016, both with JC/Engi. If I switch Engi with Ench (replacing foot enchant with tuskarr's, hand with 28sp, and cloak with 23 haste) 3.2.2 is 7063, and 3.3 is 7966. So a 10 dps loss on live, and 50 dps loss in 3.3.

I'm not surprised Engineering is so much better on the PTRs. But actually, if you use the common scaling factors of haste = .65PP and crit = .75PP, the two are very close even on live mostly due to the fact that we get 24 crit on our boots and an arguably better runspeed enchant while non-engineers have to use stamina. I suspect that Enchanting would be better on Patchwerk with Icewalker, but would suffer even further on any "real" fight.

Althor, I'm still not familiar with the ins and outs of Simcraft, so if you have time could you see how the numbers change on that 264 set comparing Tailoring, Engineering, and the flat SP bonus professions, and how they change between trolls and other races?

Graf · 11/18/09, 6:54 AM

With the right choise of 2pt9258 you should be able to come out equal or
even ahead. In real raid 2pt9 would even win more, thats why its important
to know which pieces we should aim for, while its hard to get all 4 (and expensive).

T9_258 hands and legs seem to comeout ahead.

c4tuna · 11/18/09, 6:57 AM

Are you trying to suggest that we go 2pc10 2pc9? I'm fairly certain our 4pc10 is overbudget enough that we should have it no matter what.

Graf · 11/18/09, 7:09 AM

Originally Posted by c4tuna

Are you trying to suggest that we go 2pc10 2pc9? I'm fairly certain our 4pc10 is overbudget enough that we should have it no matter what.

Depends on fights ofc, but i doubt we get many patchwerk fights where MF shines.
4PT9 is imba, but don't underestimate the power of VT!!!

It all will depend how MF will tighten our rotation, wish i could test it on PTR.....

PS I hope simcraft does the tier bonus automatic, if not i might have the wrong values.

Pasch · 11/18/09, 7:12 AM

Was the T9 BiS list updated for the 3.3 mechanics? Doesn't look like that to me but I might be wrong.
I'm really liking the scale factors you came up with for T10, looks very promising and our scaling issues might be gone for good now

c4tuna · 11/18/09, 8:01 AM

For me, haste is .994 point-for-point with spellpower, so that's great.

Yeah, I've said before that I suspect we'll keep 2 pieces of t9 around for some multi-dot fights. Obviously 4pc9 and 4pc10 aren't even comparable (~4% increase vs a 20% increase to same spell + smoother rotation) but there might be some contention between going 2/2 for certain fights. I suspect it will be most useful for fire-and-forget moments, because it doesn't improve throughput on VT, only reduces time spent casting it which is a relative non-issue when we're multi-dotting because it's just replacing mind flay refreshes, which WILL have increased throughput with 4pc10.

srsface · 11/21/09, 7:45 AM

I have some theorycraft questions regarding multi-dotting and maximizing damage done in normal toc25...(disclaimer: this is about inflating damage done, not doing what's best for the raid, e.g. dispelling or focusing kill target; it's just faceroll reg 25 and we always do silly things to inflate our dps for trash talking rights). I've read quite a bit about multi-dotting but it's mostly just a generic "4 mobs or more, use mind sear; recasting dots on offtargets takes the place of mindflay," which doesn't apply to every fight in a crystal clear manner. Perhaps I've missed some definitive post somewhere that someone could point me to?

Otherwise:

For faction champs:
Currently I just tab through all the targets and VT+Pain anything I don't have dotted, keeping DP on the kill target, refreshing kill target's pain with MF, and MB'ing it if my replenishment falls off. This has been putting me way up there, but I'm wondering what would produce the absolute biggest numbers. I have the 2pc set bonus so VT is much higher damage per cast that SW:P...should I just keep VT rolling on as many targets as possible and not even bother with pain? What about DP? The targets go down pretty quickly, so maybe it would be best to roll VT on everything I can tab to, and focus whatever will be killed absolute last and keep a pain rolling on it with MF2 whenever I'm not redotting things? Would anything really change during bloodlust?

I know that simply trying to inflate your damage on a fight like this is indeed silly, but I'm sure the answer to this will be instructive as to best practices on other fights. :P

In the same vein, on normal 25 anub'arak we always we always kill the first set of adds during above ground phases, so with only 2 adds out, will it result in higher damage done to:
a) keep a VT on each add, and a normal rotation on anub
or
b) keep a VT+SWP on each add, VT+SWP+DP on anub, and rotate mind flays across all 3 to keep SWP up, and mind blast on anub
or
c) something better that I didn't consider

on Gormokk (beasts phase 1): When a snobold comes out, at what time-to-live does it become worth the global to toss on SW:P in addition to VT? If it's even worth casting in the first place, how much time to live does a snobold need to have for it to be worth refreshing the SWP? I suppose the answer to this would directly correlate with how to treat mistresses on jaraxxus.

And finally, a nagging question I've had about twins: I'm relatively certain (correct me if I'm wrong) that the damage increase from going opposite color is worth just staying on the opposite color boss and keeping a single target rotation. But if I get empowered light/dark, recast SW:P, and then switch colors again because of vortex or shield, is it worth it to mindflay the target that has the empowered SW:P to keep it up? In which it might be smart to intentionally do that, even.

Any input is welcome but I'm really looking for mathematical bests here. If this is in the wrong place, or if I'm just being stupid and should find my own answers, please let me know.

Sayjo · 11/21/09, 11:25 AM

To add to all the questions that srsface asked that I want to know most of too lol

I was curious as to how the stat values are calculated. I would honestly like to learn what formula's or methods are used so I can calculate my own and be more efficient. The only thing I know is SP tends to be 1 as a basis for comparison but how are the other values determined? Also, I noticed a graph where haste becomes more and then less effective so would that determine a "haste cap" you'd be looking for or is it in any way related to how the value ratio of stats are calculated?

Thank you heaps whoever can answer these for me.

c4tuna · 11/21/09, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Sayjo

To add to all the questions that srsface asked that I want to know most of too lol

I was curious as to how the stat values are calculated. I would honestly like to learn what formula's or methods are used so I can calculate my own and be more efficient. The only thing I know is SP tends to be 1 as a basis for comparison but how are the other values determined? Also, I noticed a graph where haste becomes more and then less effective so would that determine a "haste cap" you'd be looking for or is it in any way related to how the value ratio of stats are calculated?

Thank you heaps whoever can answer these for me.

SimulationCraft can be set to give you scaling factors for any of the stats/ratings. You can also find them using Rawr, if you so choose. As far as I can tell, there's no manual way to find them out, since they're based on simulated DPS. SimulationCraft produces 2 different sets of data: How much of a gain in DPS each point would yield (so if increasing your SP would increase DPS by 2.3, 2.3 would be SP's value) and the same data relative to SP as 1 point. So if SP increases dps by 2 and crit increases dps by 1.5, then it would report SP as 1.0 and crit as 0.75. When calculating hit, it tells you the dps loss faced by removing each point of hit. To find "haste caps", you would simply have to experiment with different values of haste and find how high you would have to get relative to the rest of your gear before its value would significantly diminish (though I doubt this will ever be the case as only SWP's period, MB's cooldown, SWD's cooldown, and shadowfiend's cooldown don't scale with haste at this point).

Shoeshank · 11/22/09, 11:36 AM

I was reading the test realm patch notes for 3.3 and read the the following.

Shadowform: This talent also now causes Devouring Plague and Vampiric Touch to benefit from haste. Both the period length and the duration of these spells will be reduced by haste. In addition, the mana cost has been reduced from 32% to 13% of base mana.

How will this change the value we put on the stat haste? I know we value it greatly right now but will it's value exceed the value we put on crit in the upcoming patch?

Sorry for posting in this forum for 3.2 stuff but I did not know where else to post this. Thank you.

srsface · 11/22/09, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Shoeshank

How will this change the value we put on the stat haste? I know we value it greatly right now but will it's value exceed the value we put on crit in the upcoming patch?

Originally Posted by Althor

Here are the scale factors for the Priests:

Priest_T10_13_00_58_264:
                   Int      Spi      SP       Hit      Crit     Haste
Scale Factors      0.5412   1.2941   2.0935   3.8325   1.7216   2.1933
Normalized   	   0.2585   0.6181   1.0000   1.8307   0.8223   1.0477

Priest_T9_13_00_58_258:
                   Int      Spi      SP       Hit      Crit     Haste
Scale Factors 	   0.4863   1.1060   1.7782   3.0679   1.5586   1.9380
Normalized   	   0.2735   0.6220   1.0000   1.7253   0.8765   1.0899

...!

Endahl · 11/25/09, 3:35 AM

Originally Posted by c4tuna

I'm not surprised Engineering is so much better on the PTRs. But actually, if you use the common scaling factors of haste = .65PP and crit = .75PP, the two are very close even on live mostly due to the fact that we get 24 crit on our boots and an arguably better runspeed enchant while non-engineers have to use stamina. I suspect that Enchanting would be better on Patchwerk with Icewalker, but would suffer even further on any "real" fight.

With regards to post-patch engineering -- and temporary haste effects in general -- what I'm wondering about is if it would ever make sense to clip your existing DoTs just to prolong the effect of the glove haste enchant? In other words, if you pop the Accelerators and then apply both DoTs, how would it affect DPS to recast one or both when the haste effect is about to drop?

Thus boiling down to whether it's worth 1 gcd to get 10% haste on VT for its next full hasted duration.

I haven't logged on the PTR in a while but I'm assuming DoTs still don't check for haste values per-tick.

Elimbras · 11/25/09, 9:29 AM

Originally Posted by Sayjo

I was curious as to how the stat values are calculated. I would honestly like to learn what formula's or methods are used so I can calculate my own and be more efficient.

Easy part : just use Rawr or Simcraft to get it. These are tools that will do the job for you.

Longer way : you have basically two methods to get such values. First one is simulation, you just "run" a huge number of fights, with both the "current" setting and the "upgrade" setting, and you can derive your expected gain from going from one situation to another. If you want to do it in-game, it's quite long and painful to have meaningful data. You can simulate it, it requires some processing times (but it's faster), and requires a good knowledge of games mechanisms, in order to program it correctly.
Second possibility is to model it mathematically, and to derive a solution (if possible as a formula). You also need a detailed knowledge of the game mechanism, and the mathematical skill to get the closed-form solution (if it exists). It's usually a better solution if you can manage it, because getting the "answer" for different solution is really quick once you have the formula. I guess that this is mostly the solution used by Simcraft or Rawr.

Mearis · 11/25/09, 10:36 AM

Even if you could write the shadowpriest damage cycles as a set of differential equations, it is exceedingly unlikely that they have a simple analytical solution. The easiest way to do it would be to write the differential equations, integrate them numerically, then to find the scaling factors do a Taylor expansion near the point where you are to approximate the surfaces of constant change (you can approximate this with a Hessian, which is quite simple to compute numerically).

Daran · 11/25/09, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by Endahl

With regards to post-patch engineering -- and temporary haste effects in general -- what I'm wondering about is if it would ever make sense to clip your existing DoTs just to prolong the effect of the glove haste enchant? In other words, if you pop the Accelerators and then apply both DoTs, how would it affect DPS to recast one or both when the haste effect is about to drop?

Thus boiling down to whether it's worth 1 gcd to get 10% haste on VT for its next full hasted duration.

I haven't logged on the PTR in a while but I'm assuming DoTs still don't check for haste values per-tick.

Considering Engi glove enchant lasts 12 seconds and puts other trinkets on a 10 sec CD there is a 2 second window to pop Scale of Fates and get a 772 extra haste for let's say a Dot Refresh, so every 2 minutes it's a most likely worth it, not sure about the rest.