Shadowpriest Theory Craft - 3.2.2 Edition! - Page 41

tedv · 06/24/09, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by UnholY_Prince

You get Spirit Tap procs from Roots and Trees too on Freya. Also I'm not sure how you guys are managing Yogg P2 with "no mana problems whatsoever;" Yogg is about the only fight that we can turn mana into straight damage through multi-dotting. I often times gets Innervate on this fight just to be able to aggressively tab DoT more. Maybe I'm missing something with mana management that you guys have seen however.

Use Dispersion roughly halfway through P1 when you can afford the DPS loss, then shadow fiend near the start of P2 (when you will get fill use from the mana). Pop Dispersion whenever the cooldown is up and you are moving between targets. Also use Shadow Fiend on cooldown. If you are really hard up for mana later in the fight, you can use a Hymn of Hope in conjunction with your shadow fiend, though I've never had to do this.

rooj · 06/24/09, 6:04 PM

For those of you who consider Imp ST completely useless, are you completely discounting the mana gains?

I think a few people have talked about not having any mana issues whatsoever, but does this include popping dispersion or using any other form of mana support? I am not currently on hard mode Uld so perhaps my own experiences aren't relevant, but when I do go shadow, with ST and Imp ST I don't usually have to use any mana support and even the fiend is often optional. The mana returns are not just from the temporary buffs to spirit, but also related to the increased regen at the time. When Tedv talks about using Spark of Hope in his trinket slot to forgo the +180 spellpower of llustration, i can't help but think that the mana returns from ST and IST may accomplish the same thing without a corresponding loss in dps. In his description of how he handles YS without mana problems he talks about popping Dispersion nearly every CD, isn't that offset by the mana gains from ST and IST?

I recognize the value of Imp VE, but can't help but think that it is being overplayed. Most of the dmg being healed by VE is done to non-tanks and severely limited to party members. As a healer, my reflexes don't take into account whether one group has a SP in it or not, and we try to top off people regardless which means that by in large the vast majority of VE healing is just overhealing. And as stated by other people i just don't see the value much of psychic horror, or even shadow affinity. If anything those seem to be wasted talent points of even less marginal utility than ST and IST. It isn't as if one has to even give up all IVE, with one point in IVE you can still have all the essential talents and the points in ST and IST.

Nurru · 06/24/09, 6:11 PM

The points that you're missing are that Dispersion can be used without a dps loss even on Yogg (movement, everything dead, guardians accounted for) and Shadow Fiend is a dps gain to use. Dispersion is also significantly more mana than 5 points in the ST line give you. You're just simply incorrect if you think that ST/IST give a significant amount of mana. It's easy to calculate and I suggest you actually take a look.

As for Imp VE, it's a significant talent on hard modes as damage to both yourself and the raid increases. The amount healed via imp VE on Hodir and Vezax hard alone justify the talent.

rooj · 06/25/09, 1:36 AM

A couple points and I'll stop since there seems to be a general consensus against this idea. (Though i do note Premonition's SP that posted earlier does not have any points in Imp VE and does use ST and IST).

the earlier dps calculation for IST is inaccurate.
1) The modeling assumes that the the increase will only apply to the duration of the buff. However, because of the nature of how SP increases are calculated with dots the actual amount of time that the buff is effective is potentially longer than 6 seconds. (iE the increase to SP will be calculated for the duration of the dot, not just the duration of the buff).
2) my usual spirit after raid buffs is over 1K.

Mana regen with IST will of course depend entirely on raid values of Spirit. But assuming that you do have about 1K raid buffed regen that would mean tha regen increase would be based on +100 spirit and include additional in combat regen of another 33%.. on top of meditation. This means that it will be 50% regen from meditation with an additional 8 secs of +33% in combat regen with 100 spirit. The question is whether over that period of time how long IST's buff would be down.

Finally, as i mentioned earlier the choice isn't really between IST and Imp VE. I have full IST and have 1/2 point in Imp VE. I could just go with full IST and full imp VE and just have only 1 point between veiled shadows or imp shadowform.

This question should really be IST versus Shadow affinity/Veiled Shadows/Imp Shadow form.

I don't think any of the three are essential or represent either dps or raid utility.

Mearis · 06/25/09, 8:19 AM

Shadow affinity is not usually taken in most raid builds.
Veiled shadow is a MUST have. Shadowfiend does ~18000 damage or so and restore a shitload of mana.
Improved shadow form is great in fights with a lot of pushback.

tedv · 06/25/09, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by rooj

For those of you who consider Imp ST completely useless, are you completely discounting the mana gains?

I think a few people have talked about not having any mana issues whatsoever, but does this include popping dispersion or using any other form of mana support? I am not currently on hard mode Uld so perhaps my own experiences aren't relevant, but when I do go shadow, with ST and Imp ST I don't usually have to use any mana support and even the fiend is often optional. The mana returns are not just from the temporary buffs to spirit, but also related to the increased regen at the time. When Tedv talks about using Spark of Hope in his trinket slot to forgo the +180 spellpower of llustration, i can't help but think that the mana returns from ST and IST may accomplish the same thing without a corresponding loss in dps. In his description of how he handles YS without mana problems he talks about popping Dispersion nearly every CD, isn't that offset by the mana gains from ST and IST?

A few pages back there were calculations on the mana returns of improved spirit tap, and it was around 2k in an absolute best case scenario. Here's the math:

Lets assume you have way too much spirit on your gear: 800. And intellect is around 1200. Your out of combat spirit regeneration will be 92 mana per second. Improved Spirit Tap gives you 1/3 of this value, and has an uptime of around 1/3, so the average return is 1/9th of 92, or around 10 mana per second. If you are doing a 5 minute fight, Improved Spirit Tap will give you 1500 mana.

In contrast, with a mana pool of around 24000, one Dispersion will give you 8640 mana. One shadow fiend will give around 12000 mana. If you cast 20 spells per minute for that same 5 minute fight, Spark of Hope will save you 20*5*42 = 4200 mana, before cost reductions. Even with 3/3 Focused Mind affecting two thirds of your casts, Spark of Hope saves you 4200 * .9 = 3780 mana.

The point I'm trying to make is that the mana gains from Improved Spirit Tap aren't even in the same ballpark as the other options at our disposal.

Luthi · 06/29/09, 2:03 AM

So, by your calculations, you gain, over a 5 minute period, 3780 mana as opposed to using a trinket that that increases damage output.

3780 mana over 5 minutes is 63 mana/5.

Add in ST/IST and you have 36 mana/5 by using spark of hope for a reduction of ~180 spell power. Personally, I'll take the dps over the minimal amount of regen, Especially considering that the only fight mana is remotely an issue for us is vezax, the additional dps is much better suited.

Frankly, I think your advice in general is terrible tedv, suggesting people use spark of hope as shadow really cements my opinion. You may have some numbers to back up what you say, but mostly they just don't apply to the situation.

Minko · 06/29/09, 5:30 AM

Originally Posted by Luthi

Frankly, I think your advice in general is terrible tedv, suggesting people use spark of hope as shadow really cements my opinion. You may have some numbers to back up what you say, but mostly they just don't apply to the situation.

The numbers he puts forth DO apply to the situation. The math and logic he proposed for using Spark of Hope for HM Vezax is spot on. That trinket is a beast for that fight.

The math for Spark of Hope dictates that by using SoH over a pure DPS trinket such as IDS will net you about 13% more MF casts. In a fight where you only have 1 full mana bar to burn through a boss and a half, that extra 13% is crucial. Just because you do not understand the concepts he puts forth in his "terrible advice" does not mean it is meaningless.

Look at it this way: Let's say you do 6180 DPS for 5 minutes with IDS, and then run out of mana. But the fight lasts 6 minutes, what happens? For the last minute of the fight your are NOT doing 6180 DPS with 0 mana. Your DPS has dipped dramatically. And I guarentee you it was more than a 180 DPS lost. OOM Shadow Priest is as good as a dead Shadow Priest. And we all know dead dps does 0 dps. And now the raid has to pick up the pace for that last minute. You are forcing them to push out more dps to make up for your inability to finish the fight without going OOM.

Alternatively, let's say you used SoH and lost that 180 dps. Now you are doing 6000 DPS, and sustain it throughout the 6 minute fight. I guarantee you in this situation you have increased your DPS by using the Spark of Hope.

Luthi · 06/29/09, 6:09 AM

You may note that I specifically stated vezax is a fight that I agreed mana may be an issue, as thats what the fight is based around. It may be that I have extraordinary circumstances which create an opportunity others may not have, but as I have stated in the past, mana is not an issue in ulduar for me, regardless of fight. Even on yogg 1 watcher and beyond if I take a full duration draining poison or more, I can still dps straight through the fight, without losing dps time to dispersion usage. If using spark of hope usage is necessary for you, 1+ people in your raid are being carried through content, whether it be you, or other people not pulling their weight.

Minko · 06/29/09, 6:20 AM

Originally Posted by Luthi

If using spark of hope usage is necessary for you, 1+ people in your raid are being carried through content, whether it be you, or other people not pulling their weight.

I have 0 mana issues in Ulduar myself. I am in the same boat when it comes to both Vezax and Yogg. But, just because I don't have the mana problems does not mean I cannot comprehend the benefit SoH can give someone who IS having mana problems.

And if wearing SoH is the difference between you being about to DPS through the entire fight, no matter what fight it is, or having to sit and regen mana (effective dropping your dps to 0 for that time frame) then you are wrong in stating that the trinket causes someone else to pick up your slack. You will be doing more dps in this situation with Spark of Hope. The alternative case would require another raid dps to pick up your slack, because you had to stop dpsing to regain mana inorder to continue dpsing.

tedv · 06/29/09, 9:38 AM

The real question is how much dotting you do in phases 2 and 3. If you spend all of phase 2 juggling Shadow Word Pain and Vampiric Touch on three tentacles and toss a dot on each spawn in phase 3 before returning to Yogg Saron, mana can get tight. Of course if you just nuke one target over and over then taking mana regeneration is pointless. I looked through WorldOfLogs but couldn't find a Yogg-Saron kill for Premonition to check. Here's a log from our Yogg+1 kill though: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

If you can post one of yours, perhaps we can get to the bottom of whether Spark of Hope is actually a net benefit on that fight.

Mearis · 07/01/09, 10:52 AM

I think one thing that is ignored when evaluating spark of hope is the availability of innervate/tide. Tipically, when pushing hardmodes, healers get priority on tide/innervate, but Yogg in particular is very very healing light assuming interrupters do their job properly.

I wish there was more to condense into the OP, but shadowpriests are fairly non-controversial.

- We have one acceptable raid build, with 3 floater points where people can have reasonable disagreeements.

- Our gear choices are fairly obvious: stack + damage, crit and haste are acceptable. Crit is always good, haste is always good but requires more min-maxing to use perfectly. Spirit and intelligence are absolutely awful. We have the highest survivability of any caster due to our self healing and improved shadow form, so we can more or less ignore stamina.

- Our 'rotation' is based on a priority system, but several spells have very very similar priorities, so even if you screw up slightly the DPS hit is very very tiny.

- We tend to have no special responsabilities beyond mind controlling on Thorim and mass dispelling on Thorim and/or Hodir. A guide to those simple tasks seems overkill for the audience of this board. I am not really sure on what specific roles shadowpriests can have in hardmodes.

- Multi-dotting is the key to obtaining high DPS on fights that support it (Yogg, Freyia mostly).

Are there any other topics that could go into the OP? Detailed mathematical analysis of our rotation? That's interesting to a few but not many are really interested in following it.

Uzziel · 07/07/09, 9:08 AM

Mearis, I think that those are some major good points, along with the stuff that Tedv wrote in the follow up post, especially in regard to Shadow Weaving and Shadow Word: Pain and the benefits of waiting. I think too many times new Shadow Priests get too caught up in their "opening sequence" rather than focusing on their dot uptime throughout a fight. Those first 5 GCDs might help get your DPS high at the start but sustained high damage output is what should be emphasized. It might even be helpful to bold and underline the idea that dot uptime is what matters.

A lot of the discussion we have here is great but I think that playing a Shadow Priest is pretty cut and dry and the OP could go a bit further in showcasing the basic information. Basically, always be casting. Don't clip DOTs and don't clip Mind Flay. DPS is a great tool to look at and evaluate, but don't forget to look at Damage Done on a fight, especially one with multi-doting.

tedv · 07/07/09, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by Mearis

- Our 'rotation' is based on a priority system, but several spells have very very similar priorities, so even if you screw up slightly the DPS hit is very very tiny.

...

Are there any other topics that could go into the OP? Detailed mathematical analysis of our rotation? That's interesting to a few but not many are really interested in following it.

The first point in spot-on. For example, the math shows casting Vampiric Touch before Mind Blast is a slight DPS gain, but you can swap the two and barely lose any damage. As long as you know roughly what a good priority system looks like and try to do it, you'll put out reasonable damage.

I think the most helpful thing is to point out common ways people fail. For example:

- Don't refresh your DoTs until after they fall off
- Refresh your DoTs as soon as possible once they do fall off
- Keep Mind Blast on cooldown
- Don't cast Shadow Word: Pain until you have 5x Shadow Weaving
- Don't attack targets that die in less than 10 seconds
- Don't gear for spirit at all; it's practically worthless
- Don't skip Improved Vampiric Embrace

Am I missing anything?

Uzziel · 07/07/09, 10:07 AM

Additionally, I recommend shadow priests get some sort of DoT timer so that they can keep track of everything and tighten up the reapplication of DoTs. I've found that my damage done goes way up especially when I never let Shadow Word: Pain fall off. Many times, other class debuffs have left the boss and need to be reapplied so damage done can take a hit if SWP falls off and needs to be reapplied, often without other debuffs being present.

Also:
- Stack Spell Power, no really.
- There is no definitive Haste cap (after much discussion, I'm under the impression this is the general concession)
- Stay Hit Capped (289 without squidfaces)
- Refer to the BRGA list on ShadowPriest.com
- Shadow Word: Death has no real priority in our spell list, other than being cast on the move or when there is 1.5 seconds until the next priority spell is off CD.

Any thing else before I start posting extremely redundant stuff. Even the list above has some redundancies.