I haven't conclusively tested the "delay" bug yet, but the last ticks aren't being clipped at any rate with nochanneling on and my quick eyeball test seems to show me that it's at least better than before.
So yeah, odds are that apart from the combat log bug (and how Mind Flay now applies 2 stacks of Shadow Weaving) that Mind Flay will actually work properly when 3.0.8 goes live.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the (as usual) thorough analysis!
Let me know ASAP anything you find on the delay bug...... I'd love to get rid of that ridiculous "channel penalty" in SimulationCraft.
Let me know ASAP anything you find on the delay bug...... I'd love to get rid of that ridiculous "channel penalty" in SimulationCraft.
Well even if the delay problem is still there, they fixed dropped ticks. I was using [nochanneling] in my tests and never once saw a single dropped tick in thousands of Mind Flays since they fixed it on the PTR.
Is there anyone here who can be bothered with doing the math for Chaotic Skyflare Diamond? 90% of the raiding shadowpriests are using this metagem, but the only calculations I can find are from shadowpriest.com:
Math of CSD: (Thanks to Mefadin)
But the 3% Increased Critical Damage actually translates to 4.5% extra damage on crits(this isn't different, but is often unclear) and there's a big difference between the amount of crit damage at 70 and the amount at 80. Going by the baseline output file of SimCraft from http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraf ... 80_General, MB/MF(/SW) make up
60% of damage and are crits 40%(or better) of the time. 4800 DPS * 0.6 * 0.4 * 0.045 = 51.84 DPS ~= 40.34 PP. Even using less optimistic values of 3000 DPS * 0.5 * 0.3 * 0.045 = 20.25 DPS ~= 15.76 PP, which would be slightly less valuable once socket requirements are taken into consideration, but it's unlikely to have 1k int and only pull those numbers.
CSD requires at least two blue gems. To ensure this requirement is satisfied, helm will be calculated assuming the red gems elsewhere are replaced by blue gems (loss of 16.64 PP)
These are based upon false asumptions (4800 average DPS from a shadowpriest during a raid), they're from the beta and the values are outdated (0,61PP for crit). Apart from that, shadowpriest.com is asuming in their ranking of items that Purified Twilight Opal and Misty Forest Emerald are in the game, which is not the case.
No matter what I do, if I try to calculate this stuff myself Ember Skyflare Diamond + 2x Runed Scarlet Ruby always wins compared to Chaotic Skyflare Diamond + 2x Glowing/Royal Twilight Opal. So why are you using CSD?
Simcraft doesn't normalize, it gives a value in terms of dps.
If I normalize the SimulationCraft scale factors against the Spell Power for each profile, then I lose the ability to easily compare scale factors BETWEEN profiles......
Since Inner Focus seems pretty useless, and I'm still trying to find a good reason to specc Improved Inner Fire (so far I've seen no reason to have it) I was thinking of speccing as follows: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Am I way of the line with not having IIF but instead 4/5 UW?
Since Inner Focus seems pretty useless, and I'm still trying to find a good reason to specc Improved Inner Fire (so far I've seen no reason to have it) I was thinking of speccing as follows: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Am I way of the line with not having IIF but instead 4/5 UW?
You're giving up a free 54 free spell power for a talent with essentially no PvE use (and in some situations a detrimental use).
Inner Fire increases your spell power. Improved Inner Fire increases your spell power even more. It is pretty minor (120 + 54 spell power), but that's still a DPS increase.
Since Inner Focus seems pretty useless, and I'm still trying to find a good reason to specc Improved Inner Fire (so far I've seen no reason to have it) I was thinking of speccing as follows: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Am I way of the line with not having IIF but instead 4/5 UW?
Improved Inner Fire gives you 54 more spell power when you have Inner Fire, so that's a pretty good reason to have it.
Is there anyone here who can be bothered with doing the math for Chaotic Skyflare Diamond? 90% of the raiding shadowpriests are using this metagem, but the only calculations I can find are from shadowpriest.com:
These are based upon false asumptions (4800 average DPS from a shadowpriest during a raid), they're from the beta and the values are outdated (0,61PP for crit). Apart from that, shadowpriest.com is asuming in their ranking of items that Purified Twilight Opal and Misty Forest Emerald are in the game, which is not the case.
No matter what I do, if I try to calculate this stuff myself Ember Skyflare Diamond + 2x Runed Scarlet Ruby always wins compared to Chaotic Skyflare Diamond + 2x Glowing/Royal Twilight Opal. So why are you using CSD?
Well, the 4800 DPS isn't really a false assumption, possibly a bit optimistic, but it is doable. The .61PP for crit seems correct after SP->PP normalization (~0.81/1.28) using the SimCraft results for the incoming 3.0.8 patch.
But I agree with your overall premise. Even using the numbers provided you get a PP total for the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond + 2x Purified Twilight Opals = (40.5 + 9 + 9 + .21 * 16) =~ 61.7 PP. Ember Skyflare + 2x Runed Scarlet Ruby = (25 + 19 + 19) = 63 PP.
If you can use the JC gems, then there is no PP loss and CSD is strictly better for all DPS levels. If you need to trade 2x red gems for purple gems, the numbers given seem to show you need to do about 4.5K DPS before CSD pulls ahead of the ESD. I can only assume that the CSD is chosen with the assumption we will scale past the 4.5K DPS point, which is why it is suggested as the best meta-gem.
There are parses of 5K+ DPS on patchwerk, so for the top-end priests the CSD is probably better. For the sub-4.5k priests, the ESD is probably better.
Well, the 4800 DPS isn't really a false assumption, possibly a bit optimistic, but it is doable. The .61PP for crit seems correct after SP->PP normalization (~0.81/1.28) using the SimCraft results for the incoming 3.0.8 patch.
But I agree with your overall premise. Even using the numbers provided you get a PP total for the Chaotic Skyflare Diamond + 2x Purified Twilight Opals = (40.5 + 9 + 9 + .21 * 16) =~ 61.7 PP. Ember Skyflare + 2x Runed Scarlet Ruby = (25 + 19 + 19) = 63 PP.
If you can use the JC gems, then there is no PP loss and CSD is strictly better for all DPS levels. If you need to trade 2x red gems for purple gems, the numbers given seem to show you need to do about 4.5K DPS before CSD pulls ahead of the ESD. I can only assume that the CSD is chosen with the assumption we will scale past the 4.5K DPS point, which is why it is suggested as the best meta-gem.
There are parses of 5K+ DPS on patchwerk, so for the top-end priests the CSD is probably better. For the sub-4.5k priests, the ESD is probably better.
Thanks for clarifying it.
Probably CSD will become the best meta for common use as soon as there is more *average* gear progress.
Actually dude, it should also be noted that, considering Purifed Twilight Opal aren't available, their best replacement being Perfect Purified Shadow Crystal, every purple socket is -1.21PP than your math, bringing CSD's total down to ~59.38PP (temp.)
Last edited by cloudscraper : 01/14/09 at 4:00 AM.
Friends are people that you think that are friends, but they're really your enemies...
Is the extra +crit rating for the CSD rolled into the gems total PP in these calculations?
From looking over the math posted here it looks like this part of the metagem has been overlooked in the recent comparisons. Granted, the extra crit rating may or may not change the results too drastically, but for those approaching the 4k DPS range it may be enough to swing things in favor of the CSD.
the basic 40.5 PP contained in the calculation by Meltface is the result of DPS contribution by increased crit damage assumin' 4.8k DPS, altought it will get as low as 15.76 PP if your dps is around 3k.
De facto, it seems like everyone has forgotten the 21 crit rating, which would add a shiny 21*.61 = 12.81PP to the total.
Bringing CSD to a supposed 72.19 PP for shadowpriests who are producing 4.8k DPS
and to a supposed 35.91 PP for shadowpriests in the range of 3k.
(assuming Perfect Purified Shadow Crystal, i.e. best currently in game, for blue sockets).
So, somewhere in the middle of those values we have the intersection.
Function is probably non-linear, but even if that's the scenario, 4.x k DPS should still be necessary to make CSD>ESD
Last edited by cloudscraper : 01/15/09 at 4:08 AM.
Reason: typo
Friends are people that you think that are friends, but they're really your enemies...
All the SimulationCraft weights I've seen give Spirit roughly 20% of the weight of 1 point of Spell power.
As far as I can see, SimulationCraft ignores regen benefits from Spirit (and everything else, otherwise there would be Mp5 weights) entirely, and is attempting to model pure throughput. This is also implied by the fact that Int gets a weight exactly proportional to it's expected contribution to crit, after accounting for kings.
If only we're only interested in throughput benefits, how can spirit be worth 0.2 sp? As far as I can see, we only have 2 talents which are affected by spirit: Imp Spirit Tap and Twisted Faith. Even assuming 100% uptime on Imp ST and kings, we're only getting 0.1*1.1*1.1=0.121 sp from each point of spirit.
Am I missing something really obvious? The only other possible explanation I can think of is that the model hasn't been changed to reflect the fact that Imp DS no longer gives 10% of spirit as spellpower...
All the SimulationCraft weights I've seen give Spirit roughly 20% of the weight of 1 point of Spell power.
As far as I can see, SimulationCraft ignores regen benefits from Spirit (and everything else, otherwise there would be Mp5 weights) entirely, and is attempting to model pure throughput. This is also implied by the fact that Int gets a weight exactly proportional to it's expected contribution to crit, after accounting for kings.
If only we're only interested in throughput benefits, how can spirit be worth 0.2 sp? As far as I can see, we only have 2 talents which are affected by spirit: Imp Spirit Tap and Twisted Faith. Even assuming 100% uptime on Imp ST and kings, we're only getting 0.1*1.1*1.1=0.121 sp from each point of spirit.
Am I missing something really obvious? The only other possible explanation I can think of is that the model hasn't been changed to reflect the fact that Imp DS no longer gives 10% of spirit as spellpower...
Seeing how in the next patch 3.0.8 SW will no longer grant 2 to shadow weaving.. what is the suggestion for best and most efficient filler with the opening rotation of VT>DP>MB>SW>SW:P (thus CURRENTLY giving SW:P the full 10% dmg increase since it most likely will not be recast on target) to give SW:P the benefit of the 10%? VE? MF? I know MF clipped isnt the best to use.. but seeing how they are fixing the delay of damage that MF has now and also that it would only be used in opening rotation is it worth?
Seeing how in the next patch 3.0.8 SW:D will no longer grant 2 to shadow weaving.. what is the suggestion for best and most efficient filler with the opening rotation of VT>DP>MB>SW:D>SW:P (thus CURRENTLY giving SW:P the full 10% dmg increase since it most likely will not be recast on target) to give SW:P the benefit of the 10%? VE? MF? I know MF clipped isnt the best to use.. but seeing how they are fixing the delay of damage that MF has now and also that it would only be used in opening rotation is it worth?
VE doesn't stack shadow weaving. Currently my opener is VT > MB > DP > SW:D. I'm planning on just adding a full MF channel to the end of that when 3.0.8 is finally released.
Speaking of 3.0.8 and clipping MF's - does anyone have a good Quartz cast bar texture which is cut into thirds? I used to have one, but lost it and can't remember where I found it for the life of me.
VE doesn't stack shadow weaving. Currently my opener is VT > MB > DP > SW. I'm planning on just adding a full MF channel to the end of that when 3.0.8 is finally released.
Speaking of 3.0.8 and clipping MF's - does anyone have a good Quartz cast bar texture which is cut into thirds? I used to have one, but lost it and can't remember where I found it for the life of me.
Start with SW, it will give 2 stacks of Shadowweaving so when you cast VT, MB, DP, SW:P it works out perfectly... of course this changes next patch but I think i'll continue you begin with SW as its a quick way to stack Shadowweaving and make your dots that bit more powerful when you first cast them.
01/09/09, 8:09 AM
will no longer grant 2 to shadow weaving.. what is the suggestion for best and most efficient filler with the opening rotation of VT>DP>MB>SW
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