PvP Disc Spec Discussion - Page 3

woobsauce · 12/22/08, 9:10 PM

Originally Posted by dbresq

I specified the majority of my cast time heals, not the majority of my total heals including instants. It's not a team stacking issue or playstyle issue, it's a meta game issue. People die very quickly at the moment in games where people know what they're doing as a direct result of gear (see: resilience) reset and damage output. I don't know what it's like on Stormstrike but on Bloodlust it's pretty much a zerg fest at the moment. I don't see how it's not prudent to spec for SoR in that environment. It's only reasonable that you have to spec differently considering different variables such as bracket, comp and gear level. I feel that build is applicable to my bracket and gear level and stated as much.

Its not as much an issue of cast time of not, the majority of your healing as a priest doesn't come from instants. There is no possible way to possibly keep up with damage in its current state with only instants. And its not just on bloodlust, but everywhere. However, that doesn't mean that subtle changes aren't done to turn it into less of just "a zerg." Hence, your mention of most of your casts being done as a corpse doesn't make sense to me. Also, your success doesn't correlate with the proposed success of your spec. For what its worth, Wataf's spec is 55/16/0, and hes the highest ranked priest on SS, #1 2's, and #2 3's, with sub 800 resil all the while. Your spec is not a necessity due to bracket, or gear, but a direct result of your lack of experience. And as is, if you aren't running with a team with heavy CC, you're going to be out of luck if you think you can survive as a priest.

quick edit - re: MissnL1nK

Please try to be a little more constructive/specific. Although this is a thread about specs, your question is more related to something that would normally be in the in the pvp forum, and should be treated as such.

See: The PvP Forum and You

Ancrytia · 12/23/08, 9:12 AM

Rogues - bubble yourself and throw divine hymn (1.5 sec cast) incapacitated for 20 seconds...and heals you a bit also.

The Divine Hymn incapacitation only lasts for 8 seconds in arena, on enemies.

For me, Silent Resolve is vital. I take it for the 30% protection on Renew, PoM and PW:S over anything else.
Sure, you *could* take an improved buff instead - but that's going to be purged pretty quickly. Well, from my experience it is usually purged.

As to

Since most priests have only instants I see more use of mental agility than absolution since it affects all the spells we cast.

I have specced into BOTH Mental Agility and Absolution. Easily my most used spell in arena is Dispel Magic. It's offensive and defensive, and with the Dispel Magic glyph you can do alot of healing just by dispelling your party. As far as I know, Dispel Magic is also classed as an instant spell, benefiting from the -10% from Mental Agility. Having said that, if you take all the improved shields talents, then you'll get alot of mana from Rapture.

Also with the new arena season (S5) i tend to use Improved Divine Spirit to gain extra spell power it adds 80 spell power and the improved inner fire also adds around 55 spell power. Thats a good bonus considering our spell power will lack effectiveness at start of season.

Inner Fire is great, if you can keep it up throughout being purged/melee'd. However, I strongly disagree with using Improved Divine Spirit (Imp. DS). 2 points wasted IMHO. Maybe put your points in Aspiration instead.

Hunters - I'm still trying to find a way to survive in the new arena map with the Fire trails on the side and nearly no line of sight break. It's pretty hard to survive against them. Some people will say ...run around the pillars...they are up for like 20 seconds and I dont know when they are going to rise up. Is there any way to know ?

All I can advise you to do is to not give the hunter the 5 yards he needs to shoot. Stick to him. Cling to him. When you see a pillar up, use it to your advantage.

Anyway, my spec is linked. Tear it to pieces for me

I should maybe add that I play with a Haunt spec Warlock. And I play quite defensively, bar the Mana Burns, DoTs and SW: D's.
Currently at 1600 2v2 rating.

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aurelito · 12/23/08, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Drdoog

Rapture - Looks interesting cuz it says 2.5% it looks like the Vampiric Touch...but dont be mistaken it only works on spell cast and its not a "buff".
In fact I think we need to clarify this talent.
what does it do exactly?
"Causes you to gain mana equal to 2.5% of your maximum mana each time you heal with gheal flash heal and penance, or damage is absorbed with PW:S or Divine Aegis.
Increasing the amount healed or absorbed increases the mana gained."

anyone has a chart to illustrate the real bonus it gives?
So if i have 18k mana and i heal with flash heal I would get back 450 mana?
Free Spell or nearly? What about the absorption ? how much mana does it give back when you have a 2k absorb on PW:S ?
Wouldn't the imp PW:S be useful if we find out the real amount of mana it gives back?
And if that is the case then we should stack more intellect cuz we would get more and more mana back...in a point where flash heals would cost 0 ? Nope cause if you look at allakhazam flash heal says its 18% of your base mana.
But rapture would become a must-have talent in arena if we found out the bonus mana it gave when it absorbed.

raptureMana = 0.01035 / 3875 * maxMana * amountHealed
raptureMana is capped to 0.025 of maxMana, reached by single heals of 0.025 * 3875 / 0.01035 = 9360 hp.

So, in other words:

If you heal for 9360, you get 2.5% of maxMana.
Any heals between 0 and 9360 give you (amountHealed / 9360 * 2.5)% of maxMana.
Any heals beyond that still give you 2.5% of maxMana.

Heals and absorbs behave the same way for rapture, as far as I know. Please also notice that rapture works in relation to max mana, while spell costs are a factor of base mana.

In your example, with 18k mana, a flash heal for 4k without overheal would return ~192 mana.

woobsauce · 12/23/08, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Drdoog

After talking about Penance I thought about removing it from my spec

Silent resolve is a must. It's our only real protection from purge/dispel spam, and even if its not that great, its better than nothing, especially considering most healers aren't going to be hit capped right now. Under fire, PW: S, Mending, and Renew consitute a great deal of healing, and having them ripped off instantly is nothing short of devastating.

The new resil cap is ~1230 Resilience. Best meta is a Trenchant Earthshatter Diamond. Although, that is subject to discussion, I feel gemming for stam is a crutch.

Meditation is huge, plus a lot of filler talents down there suck right now, ie: imp power word shield. Absolution is also huge, depending on your playstyle. Many/most successful priests play extremely aggressively, and reducing the mana cost of dispels can be game breaking. Personally, I love the talent.

Imp DS is a waste of two talent points. You're sitting in the 1400's, there is no possible way that your current problem is spell power, as opposed to survivability. Similarly, you generally take imp inner fire, for both the fact its a defensive boost against melee, but also the fact that its an offensive AND defensive spell power boost.

Also, your comments on aspiration are astounding to me. How can you play without it? Two seconds off of penance? That's huge, let alone the fact it makes PI a sub 2minute CD spell. The shortened cooldown on PS is nice, but you will rarely use it twice per arena regardless. In the end it both supports/bolsters yourself and your team offensively and defensively.

5/5 Divine fury is also a must. The key to playing a priest successfully, or any offensive healer for that matter, is being able to play offensively when required. As such, a 1.5s holy fire is amazing. It hits for over 2.2k, crits and hits harder than mind blast when you're specced disc. Meaning, a holy fire, mind blast, and death combo will do ~5.5k (assuming no crits) in a matter of 3 seconds. Smite sucks, but its worth mentioning it is also given .5 off in the event you don't need to heal at all. And that's just the offensive importance of the spell. Let alone the defensive aspect of it, which allows you .5s off gheals. With PI up and .5s off, your heals are just being bombed quickly on your targets. Even if you don't want to take the talent for the defensive healing aspect, the offensive aspect alone makes it worth taking, and shortened gheals are just icing on the cake. Over the course of a fight, that talent alone saves many, many full GCD's.

Your horrid discussion of penance convinces me you aren't very observant. Flash heal is a 1.5s cast which heals for ~4k - 4.5 depending on your gear setup for pvp. One penance, heals for as much as a gheal, probably around 8k (dont have wow 'till tomorrow, ill fill this number out then), with only .5s longer a cast. Meaning flash heal is ~2800 heals / second, whereas penance is ~4k heals / second. There is literally, no comparison. Let me emphasize, penance is NOT a dps spell, in any situation, unless you're being LOS'd. In which case it can function as arcane missles does. Aside from that rare situation, smite, mb, pain, holy fire, dev plague, and sw Death, are all higher dps spells. Also, each tick of penance, stacks up one stack of Grace, which just amounts to free healing on your target/damage reduction, or at the very least, an extra buff against purge spam.

Stats which priests are stacking in arena will have to depend on their own ability to survive, but until people even get near the resil cap, Resil as mentioned before is going to be the stat to stack. At this point in time, spell power is not our biggest issue, but survivability (in general). The healing difference in an extra 100-200 spell power isn't breaking us, the fact that two rogue ambush crits in succession does 90% of our life is however.

Rapture functions as it reads. The more your shields absorb, or the more EFFECTIVE healing you do on a target, the more mana which will be returned to you from the talent. It allows disc to function as its own mana battery. So, yes its a "must have" talent.

I should clarify, you're right that renewed hope is a garbage talent, but not for the right reasons. It's basically spending 2 talent points to gain 4% crit on targets which HAVE to have weakened soul on them. 4% crit is a drop in the bucket, pure and simple. The talents surrounding it just have so much more application. For a healing talent, it simply doesn't do enough.

Also, after talking about penance, I'm not quite sure how you can take it out of your spec. The specs you choose lack serious balance, and a LOT of key talents. For what its worth, I seriously think blessed recovery is horrible. The margin for which your death comes is less than 6 seconds usually, to be sure. Simply better positioning in arenas helps prevent the insta gib more than anything else. Also, an 8k ambush will tell blessed recovery to do 1200 healing to you over 6 seconds, WITHOUT wound poison. And assuming is a non idiotic rogue, wound poison will be up, so it will tick for 200, three times, over the course of 6 seconds. Or, 1% of your hp every two seconds, for 6 seconds. All in all, a drop in the bucket until gear catches up. I'm not saying its always a bad talent, at 70 when gear caught up it wasn't all bad, but it's not terribly useful now.

Olecya · 12/26/08, 10:24 AM

Sorry if it is not the best topic for my question but still it is related to PvP Disc gear and this topic looks like alive.

So, I'm still can not make a right decision about the gear to choose. You know we have two sets of arena gear: one with spirit stats[Hateful Gladiator's Mooncloth Hood] and one with crit[Hateful Gladiator's Satin Hood]. Stats are identical except spirit vs crit rating. Also socket bonus for a spirit set gives spirit, and one with crit - stamina, resilience and dmg.

If we take all available gear(of Hateful value) except weapons, wand and off-hand, we will get 403 spirit or 403 crit rating. 403 crit rating is about 9% crit which is not so amazing, however each successfull crit gives us more mana back from Rapture and each crit gives us 30% more absorb via Divine Aegis. How much mana 403 spirit will give me at arena?

For arena 5vs5 battle I think I would choose a spirit, however I am going to play mostly at 2vs2 arena with DK unholy. So, could you please recommend what is the best option for me?

The reason is that I don't have much experience at arena with priest and all battles I got during this season was like:
1. First 10 fights at 1st arena week were only against melee teams: rogues, paladins, warriors and DK. I was dead in the first 10 seconds because of the burst damage. What is the point of spirit here? One lucky crit can save my life instead.
2. The next 20 fights this week was much better: much less melee teams and much less skilled people. At least we got back our 1500 rating

. I still did not get any mana problems.

If I ever take over 1800 rating, may be spirit useful again?

Thanks.

zellius · 12/26/08, 6:59 PM

I'm still in the low 1500's, but I've found that the matches don't last nearly long enough for spirit to matter. Between Meditation's mana regen, Hymn of Hope, and the cute little shadow puppy (glyphed), I haven't run out of mana a single time.

Until priests can stay alive longer, I think the Satin set is going to be far better than Mooncloth.

swankholyman · 12/26/08, 7:28 PM

anouther quick idea for DK, priest, right now Im pve shadow, and started running 2's with a DK guildy for S&G, and its worked out great however It really chages by team whether I can dot and really put out some damage as my DK mauls people, or I run like a chicken with my head cut off for rogues or lawladins, so I had the Idea of maybe getting a build like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft , to out put alot of damage on peels, but still have the survivability to last through Healer Melee dps. (and this build was meant exclusivly for a Spriest DK combo, or Psriest Mage combo)

Ancrytia · 12/27/08, 10:50 AM

If I was playing Shadow Priest, I'd personally go for this spec.

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You can heal you and your partner with dispels, hence the improved dispel. And PWS'ing is the only way you can 'heal' without dropping out of shadow form.

encorp · 12/31/08, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by woobsauce

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Woobsauce, I agree almost completely with a lot of your comments about the direction of disc in arena and I also consider Divine Fury a must have as well, especially in 2's where playing offensively with a Muti Rogue is definitely one of many keys to success it seems. One thing I do find curious is your use of Spell Warding and Blessed Recovery over Holy Specialization; while I agree that 10% Spell Warding is definitely a good thing, do you consider it a must have; considering our biggest problems are actually melee?

Here is what I plan to go with;

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I do like to keep searing light as Holy Fire is a really large part of my aggressive playstyle and I dont know that the two points from it are really better off in BR or SW in holy. Also note I like to put a full 3 points in DA for the heck of it.

Also, do you think having spell warding is important enough to take points out of Holy Spec and DA? I find the 5% crit really seems to lend a lot to an aggressive playstyle.

Edit: It is important to note I'm speaking purely about 2's and possibly 3's as I absolutely do not step foot in 5's.

Pewpewarrows · 12/31/08, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by encorp

Woobsauce, I agree almost completely with a lot of your comments about the direction of disc in arena and I also consider Divine Fury a must have as well, especially in 2's where playing offensively with a Muti Rogue is definitely one of many keys to success it seems. One thing I do find curious is your use of Spell Warding and Blessed Recovery over Holy Specialization; while I agree that 10% Spell Warding is definitely a good thing, do you consider it a must have; considering our biggest problems are actually melee?

Here is what I plan to go with;

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I do like to keep searing light as Holy Fire is a really large part of my aggressive playstyle and I dont know that the two points from it are really better off in BR or SW in holy. Also note I like to put a full 3 points in DA for the heck of it.

Also, do you think having spell warding is important enough to take points out of Holy Spec and DA? I find the 5% crit really seems to lend a lot to an aggressive playstyle.

Edit: It is important to note I'm speaking purely about 2's and possibly 3's as I absolutely do not step foot in 5's.

Out of all the possible class makeups you can encounter in arena, the only ones that are doing significant spell damage are:

Balance Druids
Mages
Shadow Priests
Elemental Shamans
Warlocks

Looking at the Top teams for 2v2 and 3v3 in my Battlegroup, the only one out of those five that you have a chance of seeing past 1700/1800 appears to be Mages. Because of that, I really don't see the point in spending 5 points to take 10% less damage from one of the 10 classes. While Mage/Rogue does hurt, a lot, I don't think it's a justified spending of 5 talent points.

Divine Aegis, Rapture, Holy Spec, and I guess Searing Light too are all more worthwhile to me.

Dominica · 12/31/08, 4:42 PM

My arena team will be starting back up shortly, so I've been looking intently at these specs. I plan on going with a 51/20 similar to what Woob posted. My question regards Reflective Shield. Given the change to making it 'intended' as working only on the priest, is it still worth it for 3s (and 2s)? If they are better spent elsewhere, what are the best options?

Salyna · 01/01/09, 8:26 PM

So I doubt that this would be the proper thread for such an issue, but being a new user I am unable to make a new thread and this is the closest I can find. Two weeks ago I was doing arenas with a friend as holy spec, no PvP talents whatsoever, and the relative success we had made me think of a deep holy PvP Spec and I came up with the following build: Deep Holy PvP Build. I tried it out last week and did pretty decently. Trying it I found Lightwell to be an amazing PvP talent as I found that although it can be destroyed by the opposing team, it is rare that anyone actually takes the time to kill it so it adds up to a bunch of extra healing useful for kiting DPS around pillars. It also includes Circle of Healing for an extra instant heal that can proc surge of light and Inspiration for added survivability. Holy Nova can serve the same purpose without proccing Inspiration for added armor, but doing some extra damage if need be. I included the obvious Discipline talents for extra regen and survivability, as well as improved spirit tap to bring some more regen when you get to do some off DPS, which I imaged might be useful against drain teams.

Problem is, I dont consider myself terribly good at PvP. While I was personally happy with the results, I dont think I am properly suited to test this spec and see if its viable, so Im posting it here for some extra feedback. Im open for any discussion or suggestions, and I would love it if someone who is a little bit better at PvP than myself would test it out and post the results. Thanks!

Catchup · 01/01/09, 8:39 PM

So after respeccing quite a lot I end up using this spec in 3v3 Arena, just wanted to share (hit well over 1900 rating this way) ... (37/34/0).

I got all the +crit gear, since mana is not an issue for me atm. This build gives me most survivability. Spirit of Redemption Glyph got us quite a few wins. Glyphe of Holy Nova is another lifesafer, I get many Surge of Light proccs and really instant heals are the only viable heals in many situations.

Pewpewarrows · 01/02/09, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by Salyna

So I doubt that this would be the proper thread for such an issue, but being a new user I am unable to make a new thread and this is the closest I can find. Two weeks ago I was doing arenas with a friend as holy spec, no PvP talents whatsoever, and the relative success we had made me think of a deep holy PvP Spec and I came up with the following build: Deep Holy PvP Build. I tried it out last week and did pretty decently. Trying it I found Lightwell to be an amazing PvP talent as I found that although it can be destroyed by the opposing team, it is rare that anyone actually takes the time to kill it so it adds up to a bunch of extra healing useful for kiting DPS around pillars. It also includes Circle of Healing for an extra instant heal that can proc surge of light and Inspiration for added survivability. Holy Nova can serve the same purpose without proccing Inspiration for added armor, but doing some extra damage if need be. I included the obvious Discipline talents for extra regen and survivability, as well as improved spirit tap to bring some more regen when you get to do some off DPS, which I imaged might be useful against drain teams.

Problem is, I dont consider myself terribly good at PvP. While I was personally happy with the results, I dont think I am properly suited to test this spec and see if its viable, so Im posting it here for some extra feedback. Im open for any discussion or suggestions, and I would love it if someone who is a little bit better at PvP than myself would test it out and post the results. Thanks!

I'm really very confused about the choices you made in that build. First, the 5 points in Shadow. When I first glanced at the numbers of your spec (14/52/5), I was interested that you took 5/5 Blackout and was going to ask how well you found it to work for you. But I can't see why you would spend 5 points for a paltry spirit buff. If you kill someone in Arena, it's pretty much good game. And if it isn't good game, a little extra mana isn't going to make the difference. Mind Blast and SW: Death I only find myself using after a Power Infusion when going for a kill with my partner after we land a decent CC on the healer post-trinket, bubble, etc. Otherwise I don't see why you would want to use it mid-battle, especially as stated before for the small mana regen increase.

In the Disc tree you go for Imp PW:F instead of either Silent Resolve or Martyrdom. I'm not going to rehash what countless posters on this forum have concluded about how inferior Imp Fort is to those two talents, so if you don't want to take my word for it just run a quick search here. I also believe that the general consensus on these forums is that going deep holy for Guardian Spirit just isn't worth the wasted talent points to reach it. Inspiration, Spiritual Guidance, Empowered Healing, Serendipity, and Test of Faith are all very lackluster, to put it mildly. Circle of Healing really isn't a worthwhile benefit to glyphed Holy Nova, and dividing your points deeper into Disc is a much wiser decision than going for GS. Look at the poster right below you for a good example of a hybrid Disc/Holy PvP build. Throw his/her 3 points from Imp PW:S into Reflective Shield, and you have a damn good survivability spec that takes practically every benefit from your deep holy but gains better Dispel/Purge resistance, faster Mana Burns, Divine Spirit, fast Mass Dispels, Focused Will, Power Infusion, and the Reflective Shield.

Of course, after you hit 600+ resilience, I'd really recommend shying away from the "keep myself alive at all costs" hybrid 37/34 for a more versatile Penance build. Losing the glyphed SoR is hard, but I doubt Blizzard will allow it to stay this way for long, and it's really just an unneeded clutch at this point. Once you can rely on your gear and not a glyph to keep you kicking, you can start going on the offensive a lot more, and keep your partner(s) alive much longer.

Tzeni · 01/02/09, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by woobsauce

The new resil cap is ~1230 Resilience. Best meta is a Trenchant Earthshatter Diamond. Although, that is subject to discussion, I feel gemming for stam is a crutch.

Can you elaborate on this point? Specifically, are you saying that Resilience is the better way to go for survivability, or are you saying that gemming for any sort of survivability is a crutch?