Crit/aegis has a statistical effect in longevity for disc, which is significant. It makes no real noticeable difference to survivability. Taking crit rating with a PvP spec is such poor return that no priest is going to have more than 15% crit.
Grace can be helpful, but I personally think I am going to give it a miss.
Divine fury has always been optional and very dependent on composition. A holy fire/mindblast/death combo takes 3.5 seconds instead of 3 with divine fury and gheal for disc is really not that much better. It can be useful in some combos, but its neither here nor there in others.
After trying specs out the things I cannot live without are rapture, borrowed time, penance, pain suppression, aspiration, meditation and healing focus. From the optionals, the talents that seem to make the most difference are silent resolve when you are being dispel spamed, absolution (especially if dispel is glyphed) as a huge chunk of my mana goes to abolish disease/dispel, martyredom and desperate prayer.
Penance is an incredibly good spell You can deliver 67% of its power in under 1 second even under heavy fire and its really tough for a DPS to react fast enough to stop it if you cancel the 3rd tick. If you are safe from interrupts, then penance adds incredible burst breaking power.
The fact that the first tick is instant is huge. It means that even if you are being at the end of a CC train and you have used PoM/PWS, you still have a spell you can use. With aspiration it means that you always have a very decent instant to fire in between CC attempts.
I'll start with this one (playing 2x2 with mage): Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Actually i have very bad equip right now, so i was trying to max my survivability versus burst damage, so mb i'll change some points to DF+SL later, but i think this build much better for starting.
about Divine Aegis:
these shields don't stack. They override each other so is it really worth 3 points? So if your penance crits twice in a row, you will not have a 2*0.3*amount absorb. It will be 0.3*amount only.
And one more question:
Does disc. priest should wear +crit armor set instead of +spirit? +crit will improve our offensive spells, DA and other talents too, so it seems thar +crit armor set will be preferable on higher ratings (1800+) with aggressive style. Am i right, or spirit is much better?
Hello,
I followed ur discussion very intensively and i am thinking about new ways of putting my skillpoints every day. It´s my first arena season with my priest, in the past i played my mage in arena. I tried a lot specs, at the moment I´m playing deep disc with a rogue in 2n2(1800).
Whether priests should take crit or spirit items in pvp is a significant question. I decided to take crit on non-set-items and spirit on the set items, but i´m also thinking about taking crit on all items. We all now when u play against double damage teams or damage-palas, or whatever does hard damage at the moment, games won´t take very long. That´s why I think crit is in the moment better for priests. With a high crit rating and a nearly always criting PoM I can survive much longer. There are many new ccs and silence-effects in the game, so every heal is important. I have 22% crit in PvP at the moment(5% skilled), but i will loose about 2% when i have deposited my last PvE items. Furhtermore I made very good experience with Divine Aegis, with 20% crit in PvP it´s really nice, especially in cooperation with Reflective Shield.
I thought a long time about taking Divine Fury and Searing Light or not. After playing with my rogue together a few games, i mentioned that it would be strong, but 7 points are too many for dealing more damage with one spell, because i never use gheal in arena. Instead i do mind blast - SW : D, or I try to concentrate on ccing the mate of my enemy. In general there is not very much time for damage or cc, because the amount to heal is huge. I don´t now, from where I should take these 7 points, but I think later in this season or in next season this talent will be mentionable again. Of course everything is a question about the way u play.
Someone in this discussion said that there are no priests in high-rating with SoR. That´s wrong. It´s rare, but one day ago the priest with the best rankings had a 50/21 spec. With the glyph the spirit is strong, but i think i can´t abdicate Penance. In 2n2 it´s really strong, in 3n3 i would spec SoR, because the possibility that u die very early is very high and healing 21seconds longer without getting interrupted is very strong.
Let me say a word to some talents from which i think they are useless. There are namely 2 many spec. Improved PW:S and Blessed Recovery. I think about Improved PW:S someone talked about in this discussion. He looked up how it really works and he found out that it´s a very little amount of +absorbing it gives our shield.
Blessed Recovery was weak the last seasons and it is still, i tried it out, because i thought "hey, crits a really high at the moment, why not?" I really was disappointed but the truth is I can invest the three points better.,
Here is the spec, I will try soon, at the moment I have a similar spec with little changes, but till now this is the best i can think of (for 2n2). I hope for ur feedback. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Out of all the possible class makeups you can encounter in arena, the only ones that are doing significant spell damage are:
You forgot Death Knights. There is an overwhelming number of them in any bracket at any given time.
Originally Posted by Tzeni
Can you elaborate on this point? Specifically, are you saying that Resilience is the better way to go for survivability, or are you saying that gemming for any sort of survivability is a crutch?
Gemming for resilience (primarily) will do you far more good for survivability than gemming for stamina, until you hit the resil cap. With 10 slots for gems in my gear, my gems (despite my awful shoulders) makes up 180 of my resil. If I had a full gearset it would be just over 200. A few thousand more HP allows you to eat a couple more crits (depending on the attacks), but I feel its just better to prevent them all together by gemming/gearing against it. Fwiw, I'm about to regem my gearset slightly, for gem socket bonuses. Also, Resil acts as a buffer to manadrain. I'm not a dwarf. Viper sting and I are enemies, at best. Good hunter teams annihilate priest teams, on the whole.
Originally Posted by Mearis
Angel + Glyph is the entire reason that priests are even remotely viable right now in arena.
Mearis, I've run without it in all three brackets. For the moment, the SoR glyph is pretty awesome, but its gone next patch (unless thats changed), so relying on it seems rather meaningless. Also, based on the teams I run it just hasn't been necessary. If I ran less CC heavy teams it might call for it, but as mentioned earlier in this thread the majority of the top priests feel its not necessary, and I agree with them. Without penance and PS, your utility seems slightly nerfed. You lose burst healing, haste, mana returns, etc. My experience in 2's/3's is that our losses aren't usually because I died, but because one of my partners did. Cutting out my strongest burst healing spell, and fastest spell just seems unnecessary. Not to mention, by having penance alone, you save gcd's from not having to gheal (not to mention borrowed time). The more offensive pressure you can muster, the better. And having utility is really what this class is all about, not single minded survivability.
Also, in regards to holy spec - the reason I dont take it, is that with a full mooncloth set (as opposed to satin), you'll end up with sub 8% crit. Going from 8-13% is just far too insignificant to lose .5s off both offensive and defensive spells. Let alone Searing Light. I've updated my spec slightly for 2's/3's:
I'm still unsure as to 2/5 Mental Agility vs. 4/5 Rapture. I also like putting 1 pt in BR just for more trash buffs, and 1pt anywhere else is just insignificant. As is my gearset has virtually no crit, and I just cant see Divine aegis as being terribly useful.
Gemming for resilience (primarily) will do you far more good for survivability than gemming for stamina, until you hit the resil cap. With 10 slots for gems in my gear, my gems (despite my awful shoulders) makes up 180 of my resil. If I had a full gearset it would be just over 200. A few thousand more HP allows you to eat a couple more crits (depending on the attacks), but I feel its just better to prevent them all together by gemming/gearing against it. Fwiw, I'm about to regem my gearset slightly, for gem socket bonuses. Also, Resil acts as a buffer to manadrain. I'm not a dwarf. Viper sting and I are enemies, at best. Good hunter teams annihilate priest teams, on the whole.
I agree, I don't think resilience really helps that much though vs viper.
Mearis, I've run without it in all three brackets. For the moment, the SoR glyph is pretty awesome, but its gone next patch (unless thats changed), so relying on it seems rather meaningless. Also, based on the teams I run it just hasn't been necessary. If I ran less CC heavy teams it might call for it, but as mentioned earlier in this thread the majority of the top priests feel its not necessary, and I agree with them. Without penance and PS, your utility seems slightly nerfed. You lose burst healing, haste, mana returns, etc. My experience in 2's/3's is that our losses aren't usually because I died, but because one of my partners did. Cutting out my strongest burst healing spell, and fastest spell just seems unnecessary. Not to mention, by having penance alone, you save gcd's from not having to gheal (not to mention borrowed time). The more offensive pressure you can muster, the better. And having utility is really what this class is all about, not single minded survivability.
I very much look forward to being able to spec penance, but right now, with 800 resilience, I really cannot justify it. Last week we ended up playing about ~20 games of 3s, and ended up dropping about 60 points to a 3 dps team of DK/Arcane Mage/Ret. I play BM hunter/Arcane Mage/Priest - their entire strategy was this, they'd ride up mounted, drop anti-magic zone on top of me, strangulate me, and unload every single cooldown. Starting with mending/shield, I'd always die before I'd get a single GCD off. My team-mates are both very good and were trying to peel as hard as they could, but the frost mage gets bop instantly, the DK has anti-magic zone and the ret is just zerging down.
With angel, I get a 25 second window to help my team-mates win the 2 vs 3, but without it I'd just die even faster.
Quite simply, classes are able to spam immunities and just zerg anyone person down, and if you want to be viable you need a way to survive that cooldown spam. I dread to imagine how much faster I'd die if I didn't have blessed resilience on top of focused will.
Also, in regards to holy spec - the reason I dont take it, is that with a full mooncloth set (as opposed to satin), you'll end up with sub 8% crit. Going from 8-13% is just far too insignificant to lose .5s off both offensive and defensive spells. Let alone Searing Light. I've updated my spec slightly for 2's/3's:
I'm still unsure as to 2/5 Mental Agility vs. 4/5 Rapture. I also like putting 1 pt in BR just for more trash buffs, and 1pt anywhere else is just insignificant. As is my gearset has virtually no crit, and I just cant see Divine aegis as being terribly useful.
I agree completely with your disc spec and your thoughts on crit.
This might be a meta-game thing, but on our battlegroup the teams that end up dominating are all unholy DK/ret paladin/third where the third is either an arcane mage / a mutilate rogue / a feral druid. Going without angel seems like suicide, literally. I also agree with you that the glyph is horribly overpowered and should be nerfed, but I was hoping they'd actually fix the rest of PvP before kicking down priests further.
What also sucks is that right after zerging me down, the paladin tipically bubbles, they all run behind a corner, and he just spams HL to reset the fight. 7000+ non-crit HL from a melee hybrid are fun ;/
This might be a meta-game thing, but on our battlegroup the teams that end up dominating are all unholy DK/ret paladin/third where the third is either an arcane mage / a mutilate rogue / a feral druid. Going without angel seems like suicide, literally.
What also sucks is that right after zerging me down, the paladin tipically bubbles, they all run behind a corner, and he just spams HL to reset the fight. 7000+ non-crit HL from a melee hybrid are fun ;/
It seems to be slightly different in our battlegroup. Double dps + healer seems to be a lot more prevalent in Stormstrike. Literally all of the top20 in our battlegroup run double dps + healer. So targeting opposing dps is far from uncommon. As such specs generally necessitate diversity, rather than pure survivability.
Also, my point on viper wasn't really to point it out as a necessity, but rather as just a perk.
Also, Ysaya, have you even read this thread yet?
Most of your spec is fine, but I really think Enlightenment sucks horribly. 5% stam/spirit/haste at the cost of .5s off of some pretty awesome spells just seems like a hardly worthwhile trade off. You're spending 5 talent points for 59 stam, 18.5 spirit, and 5% haste. That just seems like a drop in the bucket to me when compared to the utility of Divine fury. Not to mention searing light. Even without searing light, holy fire does more damage than MB, so I don't see why you'd MB over it.
Running rogue/priest in 2's, I really feel like penance has saved a lot more games for us than SoR glyph would have. Not just in terms of healing my rogue, but also in terms of offensive pressure. Even against good shaman, I can usually get 2 penance volleys off when healing before I get hit with ES, which is still a lot of healing.
I've been changing up my spec a bit every time I spec back to disc, and last night I tried dropping some points out of Mental Agility into Imp. PW:S, and at first I really noticed the difference in mana, but the games vs. war/sham where the warrior was rage starved the entire round each round made me feel a little bit better about it.
The huge downfall of penance is when I get focus fired due to us being unable to bring enough offensive pressure/control. In these cases it does nothing. Conceptually, I just don't like SoR/SoR glyph, because it's so theoretically easy to counter just by running away/resetting (although in practice I realize this doesn't happen as much, especially sub 2000 bracket). The worst is mirror matches. I just get owned by their rogue way faster than the other priest gets owned by mine. But we haven't seen any mirror matches since he upgraded out of blue daggers so maybe that will change.
After 4 days of playing disc (2x2 with rogue, 3x3 with rogue and mage). i have changed my talent build to this one: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
With Renew,FH,PW:S glyphs.
Its more mana effective and completely non-crit build, so with this build you should ignore +crit at all, but pay more attention to +spelldamage and +spirit.
I didn't pick up Reflective Shield cause in 3.0.8 it will work on priest only, so i think this talent doesn't worth 3 points.
Also i didn't pick up Martyrdom cause i think this talent become almost useless. with healing focus you have 70% pushback reducing so even with GH you'll have only 0.3 seconds max pushback.
You should use GH with this build when it's possible. PW:S+GH combo will be effective if Penance on CD.
Improved Healing and Rapture makes Penance almost free if it heals without overhealing and -% to healing debuffs on target.
As for me, Grace is good enough to spend 2 points. +6% to healing taken, -3% damage taken, and additional 3 buffs (harder to dispell).
I still have not tough equip, but when i'll get more then 700res and about 19.5k hp buffed i'll change my build leaving Spell Warding or Blessed Recovery to 1 point and add 2 points to Searing Light (if i'll prefer more agressive style) or Mental Agility.
PS. PW:S question: With all disc. talents PW:S should absorb (2230+1550*(0.3+0.4))*1.15 = 3812 damage, but i have had some testings about 1 hour ago and rogue's ambush strike hitted me about 7k damage and ~5250 was absorbed. So, there is huge difference of ~1400 absorbed damage. How does it happens? May be armor reducing included in 5250?
PPS. Penance question: does Twin Disciplines and Mental Agility affects Penance? I'm asking about it because Mind Flay is affected by TD and Penance have same mechanics as MF.. but i'm still not sure
I've been changing up my spec a bit every time I spec back to disc, and last night I tried dropping some points out of Mental Agility into Imp. PW:S, and at first I really noticed the difference in mana, but the games vs. war/sham where the warrior was rage starved the entire round each round made me feel a little bit better about it.
Aren't Improved PW:S and Borrowed Time still bugged to give the incorrect boost to PW:S?
That is to say, doesn't Improved PW:S (right now) only improve the base absorb amount of PW:S?
And doesn't Borrowed Time right now only improve the coefficient by 40% multiplicatively instead of improving it additively?
Running rogue/priest in 2's, I really feel like penance has saved a lot more games for us than SoR glyph would have. Not just in terms of healing my rogue, but also in terms of offensive pressure. Even against good shaman, I can usually get 2 penance volleys off when healing before I get hit with ES, which is still a lot of healing.
I've been changing up my spec a bit every time I spec back to disc, and last night I tried dropping some points out of Mental Agility into Imp. PW:S, and at first I really noticed the difference in mana, but the games vs. war/sham where the warrior was rage starved the entire round each round made me feel a little bit better about it.
The huge downfall of penance is when I get focus fired due to us being unable to bring enough offensive pressure/control. In these cases it does nothing. Conceptually, I just don't like SoR/SoR glyph, because it's so theoretically easy to counter just by running away/resetting (although in practice I realize this doesn't happen as much, especially sub 2000 bracket). The worst is mirror matches. I just get owned by their rogue way faster than the other priest gets owned by mine. But we haven't seen any mirror matches since he upgraded out of blue daggers so maybe that will change.
Rogues are stupidly weapon dependent, my rogue went from blue daggers to -> 25 man ones, and ambushes went from critting for 4k to 7k.
If any of you weren't aware imp pw:s is bugged. It only increases the base amount of the shield absorbed, which is 3 talent points to increase the amount absorbed by like 150. Not worth taking it until 3.0.8.
Also, Ildon, why wouldn't you take martyrdom? Decreases lockout time by 20%, ie: counterspell, kick, pummel, etc. On top of a potential 100% pushback resistance.
It seems to be slightly different in our battlegroup. Double dps + healer seems to be a lot more prevalent in Stormstrike. Literally all of the top20 in our battlegroup run double dps + healer. So targeting opposing dps is far from uncommon. As such specs generally necessitate diversity, rather than pure survivability.
Also, my point on viper wasn't really to point it out as a necessity, but rather as just a perk.
Also, Ysaya, have you even read this thread yet?
Most of your spec is fine, but I really think Enlightenment sucks horribly. 5% stam/spirit/haste at the cost of .5s off of some pretty awesome spells just seems like a hardly worthwhile trade off. You're spending 5 talent points for 59 stam, 18.5 spirit, and 5% haste. That just seems like a drop in the bucket to me when compared to the utility of Divine fury. Not to mention searing light. Even without searing light, holy fire does more damage than MB, so I don't see why you'd MB over it.
Double dps + healer (as well as 4dps 5s) are by far the most common teams I run into as well.
And I don't necessarily think that Enlightenment is worthless, although I agree that it's absolutely not worth giving up Divine Fury for. I respec very frequently (based upon bracket, or if I'm raiding), but often find myself taking it over some of the mana efficiency talents (such as mental agility) for 3s.
As far as Martyrdom goes, I feel as if it's mechanics are very stale. As it stands now, when I have melee on me to proc it, I'm generally not in any position to try and cast unless their interrupt is already on cooldown. Even in BC, my only main reason for taking it was mana burn.
Rogues are stupidly weapon dependent, my rogue went from blue daggers to -> 25 man ones, and ambushes went from critting for 4k to 7k.
If any of you weren't aware imp pw:s is bugged. It only increases the base amount of the shield absorbed, which is 3 talent points to increase the amount absorbed by like 150. Not worth taking it until 3.0.8.
Also, Ildon, why wouldn't you take martyrdom? Decreases lockout time by 20%, ie: counterspell, kick, pummel, etc. On top of a potential 100% pushback resistance.
I had read the initial testing of PW:S was flawed, using the glyph's heal amount instead of actual amount absorbed. I haven't tested it myself, though.
As far as Martyrdom goes, I feel as if it's mechanics are very stale. As it stands now, when I have melee on me to proc it, I'm generally not in any position to try and cast unless their interrupt is already on cooldown. Even in BC, my only main reason for taking it was mana burn.
I think martyrdom is a must have for fast mass-dispell - if you can get it off and it doesn't resist, you can usually win a game right there.
I run ret/priest and we're currently in the low 1600's (just started arenas). While using this build minus Divine Aegis plus Rapture, I haven't gotten close to OOM even once yet. When we lose, its almost always when a rogue or a 2-dps team bursts me down. So, I decided to skip Rapture in favor of Divine Aegis and Renewed Hope. I'm hoping that will keep me alive for just a little bit longer.
Yes, but mass dispell has no push back protection. If you are getting zerged by a DK/pet/ret paladin and you need the bubble off, you cannot risk getting a pushback that will lead to your Md getting kicked.
I agree, Martyrdom has lost a lot of its value in Season 5 due to the changing mechanics of Arena game play. CC battles are far less common, and well timed damage bursts seem the most common game winners in the higher rankings.
As far as kicking a Mass Dispell, I've never heard of stacking talent points to protect against that. With a .5 second cast time (before haste), and most players averaging over 100ms latencies in game, it's almost impossible for an opponent to see it coming, let alone react in time to kick it. I think Martyrdom's merit is 20% Interrupt effect duration reduction, which can make the difference in the lower bracket 2v2 and 3v3 Arenas.
Zellius, although your spec hits some of the most potent healing talents in the Discipline tree, they're hard to rely on because of their dependence on critical heals. Having dropped Rapture I'd consider Mental Agility and Enlightenment, both of which will help your mana and longevity in Arenas. If you do go this route, I'd suggest dropping Holy Specialization in favor of Improved Renew and two additional points in the Discipline tree, all in favor of keeping you alive longer during match ups.
What he means is that if you're being attacked there's a high chance that MD will get pushed-back, making it fully interruptible by any non-keyboard turner. Especially in light of the fact that they should know it's coming.
"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali
I agree, Martyrdom has lost a lot of its value in Season 5 due to the changing mechanics of Arena game play. CC battles are far less common, and well timed damage bursts seem the most common game winners in the higher rankings.
As far as kicking a Mass Dispell, I've never heard of stacking talent points to protect against that. With a .5 second cast time (before haste), and most players averaging over 100ms latencies in game, it's almost impossible for an opponent to see it coming, let alone react in time to kick it. I think Martyrdom's merit is 20% Interrupt effect duration reduction, which can make the difference in the lower bracket 2v2 and 3v3 Arenas.
Focused power is worth taking for the damage and healing buff alone. You don't get the talent points for just mass dispels, its just a nice perk, although you could argue for that portion alone if you've ever played pmr. The faster you get shields/bubbles off, the better.
Also, your comments concerning MD confuse me. I don't see how anyone couldn't see it coming. The use is so situational, your comments lead me to believe you have very little arena experience. Oh hey, a Paladin bubbled -> I'm going to A. mass dispel or B. press S in confusion. I dont disagree that its difficult to interrupt, for the same reasons you dont see to many interrupted feldoms. But it is still a valid point that many good players will see it coming, and take steps to prevent the md from getting off.
Enlightenment is just such a drop in the bucket it just hardly merits 5 talent points. Points in martyrdom is just such a better alternative. Think about the point placement. 2 more % stam/haste/spirit is pretty much nothing. Its that vs the utility of potential 100% pushback protection, and lockout protection -> which is bound to happen in all brackets. I mean, take the figures I posted earlier in the thread, and reduce them by 60%. That tiny bit of stam/spirit is what you're paying 2 talent points for (with decent gear).
borrowed time + pain suppression are much better than blRes
Your response implies that you are taking this statement out of context. Mearis stated that Blessed Resilience is superior to the talents available deeper into disc when it considering which talents help us survive against rogues the best. While I do not choose to spec into Blessed Resilience for any bracket, I do agree with him on this.
Before I start, tonight was my first bout of serious arena since BC. I had read alot about the x/x/21 build for 2v2 arena with a mage back in the day, but never had a suitable partner to try it with in BC. One of my friends now has a reasonably geared mage so tonight I decided to give it ago. I must say I was quite impressed, we came up against a mirror team, expect the priest was Penance spec. We overcame them with little trouble. Infact, the only real hassles we had came from druid/warrior or druid/rogue combos.
Is anywhere out there still a fan of silence for 2v2s? (maybe even 3s?) Do people still think this spec is viable? If so, any pointers or strategies you would like to share? My spec is this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - any changes I should be making to that? Cheers guys
Before I start, tonight was my first bout of serious arena since BC. I had read alot about the x/x/21 build for 2v2 arena with a mage back in the day, but never had a suitable partner to try it with in BC. One of my friends now has a reasonably geared mage so tonight I decided to give it ago. I must say I was quite impressed, we came up against a mirror team, expect the priest was Penance spec. We overcame them with little trouble. Infact, the only real hassles we had came from druid/warrior or druid/rogue combos.
Is anywhere out there still a fan of silence for 2v2s? (maybe even 3s?) Do people still think this spec is viable? If so, any pointers or strategies you would like to share? My spec is this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - any changes I should be making to that? Cheers guys
I've mentally toyed with the idea but...Not having Desperate Prayer would hurt too bad, to me. I loved Disc/Silence in 2s back in s3/s4, though. I played that spec almost exclusively (with a Mage), but got stuck at about 2k rating. Rogue/Druid, Warlock/Healer, and Hunter/Druid = 100% countercomp if they play well. Not enough Warrior/Healer teams on my battlegroup to make up for having 50% of our fights be almost instant loss.
I would consider Vieled Shadows over Shadow Weaving, though, for that spec. Helps make up for the loss of rapture. Same with Improved Renew and Holy Concentration (I prefer Martyrdom for Mass Dispel reasons--yes it does make a difference). Borrowed Time is probably a better choice.
Overall--I just doubt it's viable right now: too many melee teams that will wreck you. Check back at 1k+ resilience?
In 3v3, Silence specs were classically only viable in a double healer setup (I did Priest/Dreamstate/Hunter). I doubt drain teams will have much success at the moment.
On a related note: Anyone else given up on Glyph of Renew and Improved Renew? I just find renew to be such a small component of my healing (hi Scourge Strike) that I'm beginning to doubt it's worth glyphing and talenting.
01/06/09, 8:10 AM
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