The next tier is pretty easy: add 5-10% to each stat (stam/int/spi/spell/crit/haste) on the item, provide a couple more items that have 6 stats instead of 5 (think rings: stam/int/spi/crit/haste/spell /drool), and most importantly, waste as much ilvl as possible on sockets.
It's the tier after Ulduar that I'm terrified of. Basically, at that point, every priest will have 30% haste, 30% crit, and 3000 spellpower raid-buffed, along with ~ 1600 spirit (assuming you gear for it). It's pretty hard to go beyond that without making it silly. The only thing they can do is force us to stack regen by making fights stupidly long, or introduce scaling mechanics into the zones like Sunwell.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
Alternately, they may create new stats (like how haste and resilience were news stat in TBC) and just sprinkle that on higher iLevel gear.
However at this point it's difficult to think of new stats that aren't either 1) highly specialised or 2) a random hodge-podge of different effects *cough* resilience *cough*.
ok got bored and started to convert the key buffs in to ilvl points for the healers...
Not sure it means much now there is less stacking - but is interesting any way. It kinda points to what we all know. They did not really level the buffs when they leveled the healing.
Alternately, they may create new stats (like how haste and resilience were news stat in TBC) and just sprinkle that on higher iLevel gear.
However at this point it's difficult to think of new stats that aren't either 1) highly specialised or 2) a random hodge-podge of different effects *cough* resilience *cough*.
They could just start adding resistance back on gear like the old wow tier sets, then make more fights need it.
Alternately, they may create new stats (like how haste and resilience were news stat in TBC) and just sprinkle that on higher iLevel gear.
However at this point it's difficult to think of new stats that aren't either 1) highly specialised or 2) a random hodge-podge of different effects *cough* resilience *cough*.
Yay, a robe with 40 luck on it!
On a serious note, they could probably alter some coefficients later in the game if it gets out of hand rather than introduce gimmicky stats. Alternatively they will do something with Int/spi for casters and Agi for melee for example, and push that on the gear instead.
The next tier is pretty easy: add 5-10% to each stat (stam/int/spi/spell/crit/haste) on the item, provide a couple more items that have 6 stats instead of 5 (think rings: stam/int/spi/crit/haste/spell /drool), and most importantly, waste as much ilvl as possible on sockets.
It's the tier after Ulduar that I'm terrified of. Basically, at that point, every priest will have 30% haste, 30% crit, and 3000 spellpower raid-buffed, along with ~ 1600 spirit (assuming you gear for it). It's pretty hard to go beyond that without making it silly. The only thing they can do is force us to stack regen by making fights stupidly long, or introduce scaling mechanics into the zones like Sunwell.
I don't know about everyone else's gear sets but I am approaching 30% crit, 30% haste, 3000 spell power raid buffed (25%, 25%, 2950 respectively). The only thing I don't have that high yet is 1600 spirit (which I recently dumped gemming for it for more throughput stats). In my ideal gear set, I'll be at 25.4% crit, 27.1% haste, and 3056 spell power.
I think come the end of Ulduar I'll be pushing 3500 if not 4000 spellpower (assuming items give upgrades of 25-50 spellpower and some change in spirit here and there). As well, once your Warlocks get over 2800 spellpower (pre-totem of wrath) then the demonology buff for 10% of their spellpower becomes better for you than Totem of Wrath.
[edit]
Thanks gsman20 for the clarification.
Last edited by Sinndir : 01/27/09 at 7:59 PM.
Reason: Updated, clarification. Thanks gsman20!
I don't know about everyone else's gear sets but I am approaching 30% crit, 30% haste, 3000 spell power raid buffed (25%, 25%, 2950 respectively). The only thing I don't have that high yet is 1600 spirit (which I recently dumped gemming for it for more throughput stats). In my ideal gear set, I'll be at 25.4% crit, 27.1% haste, and 3056 spell power.
I think come the end of Ulduar I'll be pushing 3500 if not 4000 spellpower (assuming items give upgrades of 25-50 spellpower and some change in spirit here and there). As well, once you get over 2800 spellpower (pre-totem of wrath) then the demonology buff of +10% spellpower becomes better.
Aren't the +10% SP based on the Warlock's Spellpower?
The next tier is pretty easy: add 5-10% to each stat (stam/int/spi/spell/crit/haste) on the item, provide a couple more items that have 6 stats instead of 5 (think rings: stam/int/spi/crit/haste/spell /drool), and most importantly, waste as much ilvl as possible on sockets.
It's the tier after Ulduar that I'm terrified of. Basically, at that point, every priest will have 30% haste, 30% crit, and 3000 spellpower raid-buffed, along with ~ 1600 spirit (assuming you gear for it). It's pretty hard to go beyond that without making it silly. The only thing they can do is force us to stack regen by making fights stupidly long, or introduce scaling mechanics into the zones like Sunwell.
And this is why I keep saying that a regen nerf (in particular, a Replenishment nerf seems like the logical outcome) is inevitable. We're in T7 gear and sitting on about as much sustainability as we had in mid-T6.
I used to be able to deal with drake tank+raid and cross heavily on the adds tank with some sort of 7-second PoM-based rotations. After 3.0.8, I felt some serious limitation on my burst multi-target throughput when consecutive coh would've stabilized the situation.
I also tried to heal the sarth tank in some tries, and as holy I felt there are certain "dice-roll" situations after GS has been blown (throughput limited due to movements forced by shadow or firewall) mid-encounter.
I have tried with both heavy haste and heavy crit gears but there are some bursty situations that would always screw me because i simply don't have ways of stabilizing the inc damage. Seems like switching to disc would help me in both cases because of the extra mobility and the better "float" healing. What are your thoughts about the capabilities of Holy spec in 2-healer situations?
Ive killed 3Drakes10 before the CoH nerf and after, with various healer set ups. Holy Priest and Holy Pala, and also Holy Priest and Resto Druid; always 2 primary healers. We recently killed it for the achievement for some guildies, using a Holy Priest (me) and Resto Druid. I healed the drake tank (war), adds tank (prot pala) and raid, while the resto druid focused on the Sarth tank, a DK. Our set up was melee heavy.
My feeling was that the fight was much the same pre the CoH nerf, until twilight torment really started to bite; ie when we were finishing off Shadron. The tactic I used was to use CoH on almost each CD, use SoL procs on any low HP player (CoH is great for generating these), keep a PoM bouncing around, use the odd renew (but few) while having a GH in the pipe for the drake tank. At the same time the resto druid used the odd Wild Growth on melee, but I believe not that often, because he needed to keep a close eye on the MT. The timing of all of this is a little hard to define, as you need to react very fast if the drakes tank takes a breath, as the tank has 2 drakes on him (Shadron and Vesperon).
I also asked dps to watch their HP really carefully as we finished Shadron off, and if needed take a quick pause. I assured them I would heal them, but needed make sure the drake and adds tanks were stable before. I feel this latter part of the fight, with melee watching their HP and stopping dps for a moment if needed was helpful. Previously, I just used to slam some CoH's in, but now a little more care is needed at that juncture. It all worked fine, delivering us a lovely kill.
One interesting side note to post patch. With the heal crutch CoH spam gone for the raid you can make more headway from a Lightwell spec at last.
The worst thing about this spell was always getting anyone cept yourself to click it, well personally ive found things have changed since CoH nerf and it doesnt take a lot of persuading - Maly vortex start etc Ive seen people run to click it !
Now's the time to train them before they stop taking stupid damage....only downside can be it actually runs out of charges 25 man before despawn now, I never thought I'd see the day.
I wouldn't mind stamina scaling higher on tanks and the raid to allow us to get more spellpower and throughput stats. I think it'd make pvp a lot more fun, actually.
Who cares if we have 4k spellpower if our druid has 45-50k health in normal gear?
Eitherway, I think it's kinda obvious from the recent comments we'll probably see nerfs coming somewhere to Replenishment.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Note that the scoreboard numbers are based on raw healing, not effective healing. As long as the raid takes long enough (bad dps, players died, undermanned), a holy paladin with lots of crit will always win this.
Witness a ranked paladin running 96% HL overheal on ... Anub'Rekhan. And another 83% from the glyph and 93% from JoL.
Totals:
1.932.138 raw healing
174.693 effective healing.
BTW: the tool counts this as "90.00%" overheal and "20.26%" effective healing. Watch your step when using this tool.
btw they do also have effective heals up not sure if it was there the other day or not.
Class break down by top ten for what ever it means - this is sum of all the 25 man bosses.
Paladin: 65
Shaman: 19
Priest: 18
Druid: 58
I think it would be more interesting to average it by class on each bosss, not just the top 10, still interesting.
Do you have any idea how they determine the top 10s? Because I know for a fact my guild's healers have put up better numbers than some of those top 10's (I have uploaded the parses myself) and none of our members are on there.
I don't know about everyone else's gear sets but I am approaching 30% crit, 30% haste, 3000 spell power raid buffed (25%, 25%, 2950 respectively). The only thing I don't have that high yet is 1600 spirit (which I recently dumped gemming for it for more throughput stats). In my ideal gear set, I'll be at 25.4% crit, 27.1% haste, and 3056 spell power.
I think come the end of Ulduar I'll be pushing 3500 if not 4000 spellpower (assuming items give upgrades of 25-50 spellpower and some change in spirit here and there). As well, once your Warlocks get over 2800 spellpower (pre-totem of wrath) then the demonology buff for 10% of their spellpower becomes better for you than Totem of Wrath.
[edit]
Thanks gsman20 for the clarification.
Demonology buff is only offensive, so we're stuck with 280 for the duration.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
I happen to like the totem of wrath I guess cause it's all we got. But yeah there was a disc. priest that i was talking to the other day. He would stack int gems in all his gear and he said he had close to 50% crit. I dont know if any of you have tried disc and actually got the gear for it but if it happens that are stats are gonna go up like that i would totally drop other stats to get up wards of 60% crit
btw they do also have effective heals up not sure if it was there the other day or not.
....
I think it would be more interesting to average it by class on each bosss, not just the top 10, still interesting.
I checked at the time you posted, they only had a scoreboard for total healing at the time, not effective healing. The change aside, it's still largely worthless, as having total high numbers depends on DPS severely lacking and at the same time running with a bare minimum of healers. The top ranked Sapphiron healer heals in a fight of around 10 minutes. That's really a lot for 25man Sapph and the total numbers for that fight length are not overly impressive. It gets worse for the Kel'thuzad numbers.
Going after meters is a difficult and dangerous thing for healers, to say the least. Let's not pursue scoreboards that really push for the totally wrong goals. This route is doomed.
Originally Posted by Pewsey
Many of our snakes are 3m+ in size. They'll just take the lawnmower off you and beat the shit out of you with it to make you tender, then bite you and eat you.
Maybe my group is a little bit tight in terms of dps but it seems like my group can't afford to "back off" from dps until at the end. The lack of throughput comes into play when the dps took some random splash, adds tank getting chopped down quickly, and drake on the tank? Pre-nerf I could've done CoH, GH tank1, CoH, GH tank2 to stabilize the raid within 7 seconds- each tank gets GH+2xCoH and raid gets 2xCoH. I can also repeat this indefinitely if nasty things keep coming up.
After 3.0.8 I am restricted to CoH, GH tank1, PoM/Flash, GH tank2. Then CoH again and hope that PoM bounces the right ways; otherwise, i'd be ~2k behind on the raid until the 2 tanks mitigate something.
2xGH+2xGCD takes 8 second with zero haste. I can certainly fit that into PoM's 7sec CD (8/7=1.14). However, to use CoH on CD I'd need to do 8s/6s, which is 33% haste. My haste is capped at around 25% (with the right raid buffs) so it's hard to do CoH on CD unless the badge trinket procs at the right time.
PS: by "2 primary healers" do you mean that there's an extra person watching the adds tank as well?
By 2 primary healers I mean 2 healing spec players. For example, if the raid is physical dps heavy we use 2 main spec healers healing, and an enh shaman to heal in twilight; so the enh shaman would be a secondary healer. I think that this fight needs something like 2.5 healers really. Two healers sees too little, and if you go with three healers you are probably dps down. Either way we want to avoid a 2nd wave of whelps from Tenebron. The fight can be completed with a 2nd wave of whelps, but I think life's easier if you avoid that.
When it comes to the tricky part of the fight, (killing shadron when vesperon is up) I dont have a healing spell rotation really, but more an order of priority. First and foremost is keeping the drakes and whelps/elemental tanks topped up, after that the rest of the dps. The problem is that the drakes tank could take a breath from each drake: If so you will probably need to abort all else and heal the drakes tank. So keep a GH coming on the drakes tank, bounce a PoM off the tank, which will hit melee also, and CoH when it's off CD as twilight torment starts to dig in. Use any SoL procs on low hp players. If the drakes tank is stable, stick a heal onto the whelps/elemental tank if he needs it.
I really think that melee should pause dps for a moment if it looks like they are going to own themselves. This might gimp dps a touch, but it's the best thing to do. Relentlessly nuking dps, while the drakes tank has taken a big hit is a scary (and avoidable) situation to be in. Dps pausing for a moment, watching the situation and even taking a healthpot, or healthstone, can make the difference. Then you can stick to your priority: Tanks stable, then heal dps.
This may not be the right place for this, and delete it if it is not, but I have a quick question about EoE 25. Last week was my guilds forst attempt at it, and after a few wipes we finally got to phase 2 with everyone alive. We were doing great untill the second breath, when it hit there was NO anti-magic field anywhere to be seen. I was wondering if anyone else had ever run across this problem, and if so is there a way to survive it?
Just as a side note we are kind of a casual raiding guild and I am trying to get the wws posted but as of now have been unsuccessful.
This may not be the right place for this, and delete it if it is not, but I have a quick question about EoE 25. Last week was my guilds forst attempt at it, and after a few wipes we finally got to phase 2 with everyone alive. We were doing great untill the second breath, when it hit there was NO anti-magic field anywhere to be seen. I was wondering if anyone else had ever run across this problem, and if so is there a way to survive it?
Just as a side note we are kind of a casual raiding guild and I am trying to get the wws posted but as of now have been unsuccessful.
It would probably be more at home in the Malygos thread, but no, I've never had that happen. There are generally 2 or 3 anti-magic zones down at the same time, but Malygos stops dropping them just before a breath. It sounds like the last zone that he was supposed to drop before the breath just didn't appear for some reason.
The deep breath does 25000 damage over 5 seconds to each raid member, so assuming that 20 of your raid members have only 20,000 health, you'd need 100,000 healing over 5 seconds, or 20,000 HPS, perfectly distributed among the 20 raid members who could die from the breath. That's a number that's not particularly hard to reach in a 25 man raid, but distributing it perfectly to save everyone is much less realistic, especially with the cooldown on coh. If you saw it coming, you could do a little in advance by having people throw up hots and shields. If everyone popped healthstones and healing potions during the breath, that's 6k+ healing per player right there, so the only challenge would be preventing deaths from the additional damage that the adds were piling on and topping the raid off quickly after the breath.
This may not be the right place for this, and delete it if it is not, but I have a quick question about EoE 25. Last week was my guilds forst attempt at it, and after a few wipes we finally got to phase 2 with everyone alive. We were doing great untill the second breath, when it hit there was NO anti-magic field anywhere to be seen. I was wondering if anyone else had ever run across this problem, and if so is there a way to survive it?
Just as a side note we are kind of a casual raiding guild and I am trying to get the wws posted but as of now have been unsuccessful.
Did you happen to have a prot warrior along? His group-wide spell reflect is capable of reflecting the anti-magic fields if it falls on him, I believe. We've had that happen on the 10-mans a fair bit, usually resulting is everyone hudling under the previous, quickly shrinking zone.
I happen to like the totem of wrath I guess cause it's all we got. But yeah there was a disc. priest that i was talking to the other day. He would stack int gems in all his gear and he said he had close to 50% crit. I dont know if any of you have tried disc and actually got the gear for it but if it happens that are stats are gonna go up like that i would totally drop other stats to get up wards of 60% crit
If someone had 50% crit raid buffed their other stats would have to be suffering. Do you know the name of this priest, I'd really like to see these armory profiles of people who are either a) ignoring spell power or b) ignoring haste.
Recently did Malygos (6min, post 3.0.8) and experienced we couldn't use CoH/WG during Vortex cause of the invalid target error.
Haven't seen much info about this but I also experienced it in arena when I could cast any heal other than CoH giving me the same 'invalid target' error.
Any more on this? Seems like a bug in need of a fix.
The deep breath does 25000 damage over 5 seconds to each raid member, so assuming that 20 of your raid members have only 20,000 health, you'd need 100,000 healing over 5 seconds, or 20,000 HPS, perfectly distributed among the 20 raid members who could die from the breath. That's a number that's not particularly hard to reach in a 25 man raid, but distributing it perfectly to save everyone is much less realistic, especially with the cooldown on coh. If you saw it coming, you could do a little in advance by having people throw up hots and shields. If everyone popped healthstones and healing potions during the breath, that's 6k+ healing per player right there, so the only challenge would be preventing deaths from the additional damage that the adds were piling on and topping the raid off quickly after the breath.
Well the biggest problem with that is that the last zone disappeared about 6-7 secs before breath and we where getting pummeled by the adds that whole time... It was hard enough for us keep up with the healing as it was. We did have a few people that survived, but not nearly enough healers to last much longer.
Originally Posted by Aillel
Did you happen to have a prot warrior along? His group-wide spell reflect is capable of reflecting the anti-magic fields if it falls on him, I believe. We've had that happen on the 10-mans a fair bit, usually resulting is everyone hudling under the previous, quickly shrinking zone.
Our MT was a prot warrior, but I am not sure if he had the spell reflect up or not. Thanks for the info though and I will ask him tonight when I log.
01/27/09, 12:08 AM
not sure if it was there the other day or not.
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