That's true, but I think optimally it would be 2 priests. Although there are other viable methods just so you don't have to bring 2 priests. My 25 man raid brings 1 shadow, 1 holy, this is downsizing from 3 holy priests during the days of Burning Crusade.

Given how trivial razuvious is, they probably don't really care.

Well, depending on the build, we do have Guardian spirit, which is at the same time both better and worse than the 9k "oh shit" button.

I'd agree if paladins didn't have DP + BoSac to compare directly with GS. Holy Shock is ludicrously good at the moment.

It is also problematic to say the least in PvP.

So, back to raid healing...

For 10 Man Eye of Eternity (AKA Malygos) during the vortex I was told that I should just spam CoH by my raid leader. Although I doubt I was hitting 6 target every time. Does anyone have more experience with this, and can provide a more definite answer?

Our guild has tried to defeat Patchwerk the quickest possible. We have therefore worked on three axis: (1) our DPS, (2) our number of tanks, (3) our number of healers. The DPS optimization is not the current topic, however, the reduced number of tanks and healers is. Our guild has been able to kill him with 2 tanks and 3 healers (2 paladins, 1 disc priest)

We basically had 1 paladin on each tank and their beacon crossed. They were there to provide the big HPS. The disc priest was there to mitigate the damage and keep the OT’s hp above the melees. The damage mitigation is done through the 3% reduced damage and Inspiration. The health is kept high through shields, divine aegis, and the spamming of Flash Heal and Penance. PoM is also a good option that fits very well for this strategy.

I’m just wondering if it would be possible to achieve the same by replacing the disc priest with a hybrid/holy priest, or by replacing a paladin (the one on the MT) with a hybrid/holy priest. I’m nearly sure that a shaman could replace the paladin on the MT, and I don't know for the druid.

Here is the WWS: Patchwerk 25: 3 healers + 2 tanks

You remove the priest and kill the boss with two paladins healing

Edit: Looking at your WWS ... did you only cast six PW:S during the encounter? I'm in no way an expert on disc.healing, but I'm pretty sure only Penance is better spend GCD. If you're that worried about having them at high HP to avoid hateful on melee, you're far better off with any other healer as a third - druid probably best.

It is possible with two holypaladins though, both your paladins have over 50% overheal on HL and even higher on Beacon (obviously).

My biggest problem with Sartharion 3D is the positioning for sarth tank healing. At our trys we have 3-4 tanks (2 x warrior, 1 x pot pala) and 7 healers (2-3 holy priests, 1-2 resto shaman, 2 paladins, 1 resto druid). At the moment everything is very chaotic, people are still dying in the fissures, but besides that the two biggest problems seem to be the healing at the add tank (after the whelps spawn) and the right position for the tank healers for the sarth tank. We put one paladin at the sarth tank, one at the adds tank and they give each others tank beacon of light. One priest heals the dragon tank, the resto shaman does raid healing, I'm helping on the sarth tank and the druid is healing where he's most needed. When Shadron spawns his disciple we start a rotation for the breaths including last stand, guardians, etc. I always try to find a position where I have a safe zone for the waves in my back so I only have to move out of fissures or when the wave spawns in front of me. But if I stand at the safezone at the left side of the sarth, I have to run through him and get stunned by his tail whip or cleaved. If I'm at his right side I have to move away from the tank and he'll be some seconds out of reach. How do you position?

I've lurked this forum for too long, but really never felt I had anything significant to contribute.

My guild has killed the 25 man Sartharion with all drakes up three times now, and I've been one of the two MT healers each time.

Each time for lava waves, i just run through Sartharion at about his front shoulders/maybe a little behind, and have never been subject to cleave/tail whip/etc. I then just chill out on the small patch of land that's left and continue to heal until the next wave/health of the MT is stable enough to move back again.

I don't know if it has been simple luck, but it has worked for us each time. Moving farther away from the tank to the right to avoid the wave was used at first, but caused to many heart-attack-moments-oh-god-please-don't-die situations.

Hope that helps?

I'm not expert disc priest either, I respecced for the combat. Due to the reduced combat time, you mainly have 9 possible shields. I probably skipped 3 because I was more trying to create Divine Aegis shields by spamming flash heals. However, I agree it's probably better to put as many shields as possible.

I don't know if 2 paladins is possible, but I believe it might be with some luck. It'd be a nice thing to test.

The problem is not about the HPS. On average, 2 paladins have enough HPS, even 2 holy priests could have enough HPS. It's about avoiding losing melee due to HS, which means keeping the OT above 20k+ hp for each HS.

A bad RNG (dodge/parry on MT, no dodge/parry on OT) might get your OT below 20k and that's where it becomes dangerous. On our wws with 3 healers, we had 1 HS on a rogue but he dodged it. The real question is, would that RNG happen often in a 2.30 minute time window with 2 paladins ?

Well for patch the melee could always stand in the ooze and cut their health in half. There's no way then they'd have more health than the tank.
I figured that's what that stuff was there for in the first place.

No. Standing in the slime is, at best, a waste of time, and at worst it'll wipe your raid. If a melee DPS on full health eats a HS that would otherwise have flattened an offtank, you can brez that melee and keep going. If your melee are all retarded and standing around on half health which leaves a half-health OT to get flattened, then your melee are going to get sequentially reamed (because brezzing the OT is pointless, he'll never catch up in threat - unless he dies in the first 10-15 seconds, and even then 1-2 more melee will bite it before he catches up). It's a theoretical situation, sure, but if someone's gotta die it's better for the raid group that a melee DPS eats it (because you can rez them and get them back to 90% efficiency or thereabouts, whereas a rezzed tank is functionally useless).

edit: I fail at context. If you're pushing for WWS scoreboard kill times, then it's more likely your tanks have the gear to survive being hit at half health, but it's still retarded to have melee stand in the slime for no tangible benefits.

You haven't shown any relationship whatsoever between your melee being at half health and your tank (at half health) getting flattened. A tank at half health has > 20k HP. A melee has, at most, 24k. Realistically, if you're trying to 2-tank PW, you have a feral as OT with 47k HP, so he has more at 50% than any melee does at full. So they might as well dip and guarantee that, no matter what, the tank takes all the hits. You need to rely on your healers not sucking and keeping your tank high enough that he doesn't die to hatefuls. Once you have that covered, it's all about funneling all damage through that single target; not counting on a melee occasionally eating a hateful and getting BRez'd.

The tangible benefit of them standing in slimes is guaranteeing that they'll never eat a HS. If that means your tank dies, your healers need to L2P. BRez wastes time and mana, and if you're going for 2-tank/2-healer, you're pushing for dps records. BRezing is counter-productive in that situation.

Let me simplify the scenario a bit then: assume the tank has 48k hp, gets hit for 18k by a hateful, the melee have 24k hp (12k slimed)

Tank HP > 24k: he eats the hateful (ideal situation).
Tank HP 18k-24k, melee 24k: melee eats the hateful, ruining DPS (this is where a slime bath would be beneficial, since the tank could take the HS without dying).
Tank HP <18k, melee 24k: melee eats the hateful, ruining DPS (but saving the rest of the melee vis-a-vis the tank not dying).
Tank HP 12k-18k, melee 12k: tank eats hateful, falls over dead, melee die off rapidly (this is where a slime bath is strictly detrimental).

I should probably have read the context better (and thought about it a bit more) before I posted, because, yes, if you're just going for a 2 tank/2 healer/21 DPS kill (i.e. maximising DPS at the expense of maybe having to run it a couple of times if your tanks get unlucky) then yes, having a melee eat the HS is a bad thing.

Also, FWIW, I wouldn't call it healers having to L2P. If you're two-healing Patch25 with two paladins, then you're at the mercy of Beacon of Light (and how only effective healing is used for beacon healing), which will lead to situations where you get RNG'd by avoidance streaks on one tank and non-avoidance on the other.


However, for the more general case (people who aren't overgeared for the zone and just want to kill patch) then standing in the slime is a bad idea, especially if their tanks get hit for more hp than the melee have (because then there's no positive outcome from sliming), e.g:

Tank HP 30k, gets hit for 21k by a hateful, melee have 20k hp. Outcomes are:

1 - Tank HP >21k, he eats hateful, lives
2 - Tank HP 20-21k, eats hateful and dies
3 - Tank HP <20k, melee HP 20k, melee eats hateful (tank lives)
4 - Tank HP 10-20k, melee HP 10k, tank eats hateful and dies
5 - Tank HP <10k, melee HP 10k, melee eats hateful (tank lives)

edit: as a side note, if you have shamans using CH for more chances at AF/Inspiration procs, then your melee are going to eat a lot of those bounces (so sliming reduces healer flexibility in more conventional setups).

Outcome #4 is the one where sliming is strictly detrimental to the raid as a whole, and there's no situation where sliming results in a positive outcome. QED, sliming is bad.


Summary: I should read context better. Sliming your melee is possibly useful if you're gunning for DPS records. For general use, sliming your melee is a bad idea.

However for the 2 paladin / semi DPS disc priest strat, you actually get truckloads of healing through mending, so you don't want your melee dps to be at low hp and hopefully mending won't bounce to the retradins because they're never at 100% hp.

But yeah I agree that with the optimal setup of using 2 paladins as only healers and bringing a DPS class instead of that disc priest, then having the melee halfing their HP will be a good thing from a DPS point of view (BRezing = losing not only valuable dps time, but also alot of buffs).

Edit: Merging posts.

First of all you never need to be tailwhipped on Sarth3D and secondly, when your raid is at the phase of adds being the major cause of death then you need to start blaming other people than the add tank. The add tank is the main limiting factor ofcourse, but it's atleast a 65 / 35 responsibility of the DPS and healers also running to the add tank to deliver some adds. Depending on your strategy you either have a DK / retradin / protadin / fury warrior picking up adds and it's vital for your raid to understand how they do so.

With a DK you want to run into death and decay or even making him plant one on the less mobile people (the healadin f.ex), with paladins you want to stand in consecration and with a fury warrior it's a little tougher, but he has whirlwind and can intercept + intervene around the map at super speed.

I've been told numerous times by my tankpaladin that Consecration is now utterly useless in terms of regaining aggro. Death And Decay however seems to work great in this scenario. We did not defeat him with all adds up yet because of unmotivated people not willing to wipe and learn but from a healers perspective, I would definetly vote for a DK in the situation you described.

Your paladin tank is wrong. This is a bit of a tangent, but let me illustrate real quick. Last night I picked up adds with my paladin in a Sarth+2, and as you can see from the WWS here my average Consecration tick was 357. With Righteous Fury up, I generate 172% more threat than without, which means each tick of Consecrate is giving me almost 971 threat. With heal aggro split amongst Sarth, drakes & random adds up, that threat will quickly rip any loose mobs off you. Also the only danger really is an enraged blaze, and if your tankadin can't see that and hit with with a threat move (Shield of Righteousness, Avenger's Shield, Hammer of Righteouss, or even outright stun it with HoJ, or in an emergency cast Hand of Protection on the victim) then he simply has to work to get better at it. Note I'm not calling him bad, because you definitely have to work at it -- any add tanking class has to work at it a bit as it's a bit dynamic.

The amount of different opinions on Hateful strike are quite annoying. Judging by the responses in this thread, am I to understand that this post by Zindel/Gurgthock is wrong? Link: WotLK: Naxxramas

According to that post, HS will always chose among the #2 and #3 in threat to land HS. If this is the case, then there is almost no reason at all to have your melee slime themselves.

The discussion here was about only having one HS tank -- i.e. 2 tanking Patchwerk, not 3. In that case, you have to set things up so that melee don't get hit by HS, because the 3rd person on the threat list will be an option if healing isn't done corrrectly.

Then just to clear something up take three tanks.

Your main tank
Hateful Tank #1 - 40k HP
Hateful Tank #2 - 37k HP

Patchwerk will always hit your HT #1 unless he has less than 37,000 HP. At that point, if your healers have not topped up HT #1, on the next Hateful strike Patch will hit #2 (more likely than not dropping their HP below #1). Theoretically you can keep all the hatefuls on a single tank, if you are healing it up fast enough.