Elitist Jerks Discipline priest raiding compendium

 02/11/09, 6:32 AM #31 bawaah Glass Joe   bawaah Draenei Priest   No WoW Account (EU) I tried to look up from earlier threads but could find, so im asking here: Is there some way to calculate the rageloss when using shield on warrior/druid tanks as disc priest? Seems that it's not going to be an issue in 3.1 anymore but i'm rather interested does that play role in current raiding if priest is spamming shield on tanks? Some say its not an issue in wotlk and some say it is.
02/11/09, 6:53 AM   #32
Mokhtar
Piston Honda

Dalaran (EU)
 The main problem we will encounter and already do encounter in discussions with other healers is the lack of empirical data. TheDoctor already mentioned the main problem: absorbed damage, though listed in the combatlog, is not specified.
I've seen Elsia trying to gather info on #wowace, from what I could gather she/he's hoping to reverse engineer the shield logic and order of use to correctly attribute blocked amount to the right healer in Recount. It seems like a difficult job and is as error prone as any heuristic mehtod is though...

02/11/09, 7:06 AM   #33
Cydon
Glass Joe

Al'Akir (EU)
 Originally Posted by bawaah I tried to look up from earlier threads but could find, so im asking here: Is there some way to calculate the rageloss when using shield on warrior/druid tanks as disc priest? Seems that it's not going to be an issue in 3.1 anymore but i'm rather interested does that play role in current raiding if priest is spamming shield on tanks? Some say its not an issue in wotlk and some say it is.
(Disclaimer: I pretty much suck at math, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

My shield absorbs ~6000 damage with full raid buffs. Last time I checked, warrior rage generation from damage taken was '(Damage Taken) * 2,5 / 320'
So a 6k hit would yield ~46 rage. Going by a fight length of 4 minutes, you would be able to cast 16 shields at the tank (240/15) Which means the tank would be losing out on ~736 rage.

I won't do a 'lost rage'->threat calculation, but it's not an issue in current raid content. You didn't really specify what the issue was, but I can't really see it as being anything but linked with threat, and the tps generation of a warrior is more than sufficient, even with a disc priest in the raid.

02/11/09, 7:32 AM   #34
bawaah
Glass Joe

bawaah
Draenei Priest

No WoW Account (EU)
 Originally Posted by Cydon (Disclaimer: I pretty much suck at math, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) My shield absorbs ~6000 damage with full raid buffs. Last time I checked, warrior rage generation from damage taken was '(Damage Taken) * 2,5 / 320' So a 6k hit would yield ~46 rage. Going by a fight length of 4 minutes, you would be able to cast 16 shields at the tank (240/15) Which means the tank would be losing out on ~736 rage. I won't do a 'lost rage'->threat calculation, but it's not an issue in current raid content. You didn't really specify what the issue was, but I can't really see it as being anything but linked with threat, and the tps generation of a warrior is more than sufficient, even with a disc priest in the raid.
Aye, i could have been bit more specific. My main concern is that can dps do damage as much as they would do without disc priest bubbling the tank. Seems that they pretty much can. I guess it depends a bit about boss aswell.

02/11/09, 7:33 AM   #35
Witch doctors park in gear

Worgen Priest

No WoW Account (EU)
 Originally Posted by Mokhtar I've seen Elsia trying to gather info on #wowace, from what I could gather she/he's hoping to reverse engineer the shield logic and order of use to correctly attribute blocked amount to the right healer in Recount. It seems like a difficult job and is as error prone as any heuristic mehtod is though...
Although quite some bugs have been fixed by now, the bug with incorrect Rapture returns on shieldhits with shield fading is or was still present. Now it might have been fixed but I'm not going every day through combat logs verifying if it has been silently hotfixed as I think this particular bug hasn't even been acknowledged by Blizzard in the first place.

The bug is as follows: Just suppose you apply a shield capable of absorbing 2000 damage. A melee swing hits that target for 1999 and is fully absorbed. The shield now has a "1 damage charge" left. Next melee hits the target for 10000 damage. 1 damage of that is absorbed, the shield fails. Rapture return now is as if the shield absorbed 10000 worth of damage which it clearly didn't.

Paired with the fact that the order of absorption with multiple absorbs or that you can have multiple partial shield absorbs if the hits just follow fast on each other (ie. you can actually have multiple shield breakings with partial absorbs from the very same shield) makes it impossible to do an accurate measurment of the shield mitigation effect.

Even if the various small bugs around are being fixed, it's still a major pain in the ass to get the true numbers and I stand with my opinion that Blizzard should be asked to extend the SPELL_AURA_APPLIED and SPELL_AURA_REMOVED combat log events by adding a single integer parameter with the relevant values (ie. SPELL_AURA_APPLIED PW:S with parameter 5678 meaning Shield capable of absorbing 5678 damage applied and SPELL_AURA_REMOVED PW:S with parameter 1234 either means the fading shield absorbed 1234 damage or that this is the value left it could have had absorbed).

Until something like that happens, take your effective healing and add 1/3 on top of it. It's probably in the same error range like any complicated methodolgy you painstakingly apply to try to read it out of mana returns or absorbs observed.

 02/11/09, 8:17 AM #36 Elimbras Don Flamenco   Mordil Dwarf Priest   Eitrigg (EU) Computing absorbs for disc. priest that have rapture, and negliging the partial absorb bug, it is quite easy to get the shield effective "healing". The following shoud work : 1/ Pair some direct heals and rapture gain, to estimate max mana of the priest. 2/ Compute all direct effective healing that triggers rapture (flash, greater and penance). 3/ Compute all rapture gain. 4/ From 1/ and 2/, compute rapture gain from direct heals. 5/ From 3/ and 4/, computre rapture gain from shields. 6/ From 1/ and 5/, compute shields absorb value.
02/11/09, 8:46 AM   #37
Sureall
Von Kaiser

Draenei Priest

Thunderhorn
 Originally Posted by Elimbras I'm not worried about the maths for crits vs haste. It's quite easy to compute best hps numbers, once given a model. But we all know that healing is not just hps : it's more about timing the right heal at the right moment. That's one point for haste, it allows more timing, even if it does not reduce the cd on our best heals (penance, PW:S and maybe POM). The second problem is the one of the model : the answer will highly depends on some parameters of the model, such as the self over-writting of the DA shields. One key factor is also the damage pattern, and whom you are healing (heal pool and avoidance), and the healers that assists you. For all this reasons (and because I'm currently heavily busy at work), I won't compute hps number for haste and crit. But you may find them in Rawr for example ;-) That's also one point I'd like to give a warning. I agree it is sup-optimal to stack heavily crit. 30% for me is a fine value indeed. But please do not remember this value as a magic number : it's an estimate, not precise, nothing like the hit cap for dps for example. So don't bother whether weakened soul is included or not, it's not that precise and clear, and will depends on fights. One point about raid healing : holy has not only COH for raid healing. It also has a better POM than Disc, and a better binding heal (mainly, binding heal is heavily mana-consuming for disc, as it does not proc rapture). In 3.1, serependity will also change, but that's not yet.
Firstly, I would think that the only viable discussion at the moment is to "min/maxing" the current content. As ulduar comes out there is no question we will need to start gemming intellect in my opinion. Given the current gear and the only real way to stack int is via gems, I find it a moot point. You can easily push 20k+ int without any int gems. I am also assuming that you are holding onto a regen set for extreme cases like 1 man healing nax or healing 25 man nax with less than 4 healers.

Lets asses some immediate advantages to haste over crit without having to delve into the mathematics.
1) Crit has diminishing returns where haste arguable does not as you will never hit the cap(assuming current content).
2) Crit costs more per iLvl. Part of the reasoning here is that you can make up the crit loss through the boomkin aura whereas haste has no long term raid buff.
3)Crit does have several meaningful affects as it helps with throughput and mana regeneration. However, if we assume a geared individual that is not needing mana regeneration it makes crit less valuable by default.

I have more than likely missed a few points but would like to open up the discussion a bit more and see where it takes us. Hopefully with some math that presumes regen is for the most part a non issue until ulduar.

02/11/09, 9:24 AM   #38
Rivinicus
Glass Joe

Human Priest

Medivh
 Originally Posted by Sureall 2) Crit costs more per iLvl. Part of the reasoning here is that you can make up the crit loss through the boomkin aura whereas haste has no long term raid buff.
A moonkin druid with the talent "Improved Moonkin Form" provides 3% haste (at 3/3 points) to the raid and spell power equal to 5% of their spirit for themself. Because it's "improved" the haste portion won't show up on the tooltip in your buff list (like fully talents BoK and Improved Power Word: Fortitude). Having played a balance druid in the past, I can't see a reason why a balance druid wouldn't take these 3 points but I may be missing something here.

02/11/09, 9:31 AM   #39
Elimbras
Don Flamenco

Dwarf Priest

Eitrigg (EU)
 Originally Posted by Sureall Firstly, I would think that the only viable discussion at the moment is to "min/maxing" the current content. As ulduar comes out there is no question we will need to start gemming intellect in my opinion. Given the current gear and the only real way to stack int is via gems, I find it a moot point. You can easily push 20k+ int without any int gems. I am also assuming that you are holding onto a regen set for extreme cases like 1 man healing nax or healing 25 man nax with less than 4 healers.
Granted, the challenge is not extreme.
I just always have difficulties to provide some numbers that are true in specific context, and that people will always generalize as a well-known fact latter. I've seen senior researchers doing this, I've seen good Wow player doing this, and I don't have any hope that the majority will be careful when dealing with numbers ;-) That's why I prefer to emphasize that healing is not hps before giving numbers.

 Lets asses some immediate advantages to haste over crit without having to delve into the mathematics. 1) Crit has diminishing returns where haste arguable does not as you will never hit the cap(assuming current content). 2) Crit costs more per iLvl. Part of the reasoning here is that you can make up the crit loss through the boomkin aura whereas haste has no long term raid buff. 3)Crit does have several meaningful affects as it helps with throughput and mana regeneration. However, if we assume a geared individual that is not needing mana regeneration it makes crit less valuable by default. I have more than likely missed a few points but would like to open up the discussion a bit more and see where it takes us. Hopefully with some math that presumes regen is for the most part a non issue until ulduar.
Please note that wrath of air totems provides also a static 5% boost to haste. And as far as I am concerned, I always have one or 2 shamans in heroic raids (and almost always 1 in 10s), whereas I can't count for sure on elemental shaman or boomkin.
But what you wrote is mostly true. Haste will be better for a throughput stat once you have infinite mana, and has diminushing returns.

There is just a few points in favor of crit I'd like to re-asset, just in case :
1) Inspiration is a huge bonus to crit. You don't need tons of crit to have it nearly full-time, but you need some crit. That part of crit, you don't want to miss.
2) Divine aegis is also a good bonus, compared to TBC case. Basically, it is close to meaning that crit heals heal for twice the amount of normal heals (whereas it was only 50% more during TBC). It would be better if Divine Aegis wouldn't replace itself, but that's still one good bonus for crits. Arguably, shielding is also a interesting feature (both for damage prevention and overhealing reduction).
3) Haste has also some limits, due to cooldowns for penance / PW:S / POM. Therefore, 1% more haste is less than 1% more heal. Therefore, it behaves comparably to crit as far as scaling is concerned (see later for detailed point).
4) Haste has a soft cap, which is the 1s gcd under bloodlust / power_infusion / borrowed time. That soft cap is not really far.

Detailed point on scaling :
Crit :
Ignoring overhealing and overwriting of DA, each point in crit (all other things being equal) grants the same amount of hps : 1% more crit gives 1% (considering crit heals, including DA, heals for 200%, for simplicity) more of your non-crit healing. For that reason, depending on terminology, one can say its return is constant (in absolute value) or diminishing (in relative value : going for 0 to 1% crit is relatively better that for 99% to
100%).

Haste :
Haste divide casting time (and gcd). If one has x% of haste, the casting time is divided by (1 + x/100). In other words, the number of heals you throw in the same time-frame is multiplied by (1+x/100).
Now, disc best heals are on cd. This means that even if they do be hasted, you can't throw more penance or PW:S. It just leave more room for flash or greater heal.
If you have 100% haste, the same heals you cast without haste take half of the time. During the other half, you can now cast fh / gh. They are hasted, which means that you can throw during that half of the time the same number of heals you could throw unhasted during the full time). Basically, you've gain the hps of fh/gh unhasted. That's nice, but that's not doubling you hps either.
More, if you consider x% of haste only, time to cast the same rotation takes you (1/(1+x/100) ) of the normal time. It leaves you x/100 / (1+x/100) ) for new heals. They are hasted by x%, so in that time frame, you can cast x/100 new heals. You've still gained x/100 of the hps of unhasted fh/gh.
Once again, the return is either constant (in absolute value) or diminushing (in relative value).
[B}Conclusion : [/b]
Blizzard made sure that nearly all the stats have a constant absolute return. That's true for haste / crit / AP / spellpower and hit. The one case that was not constant in TBC was ArP and maybe spell penetration, which I've never been interested in (I don't know whether ArP has been "linearized" in 3.0 or not) . It was a common mistake during TBC for (french) hunts to consider that AP was "bad" because of static absolute return (the famous unmodified 14AP = 1dps), when crit / haste/ hit had relative returns and were not interesting. At least in EJ, I'd would be glad we don't make the same mistake in scaling.

NB : I'm not native english speaker. Please be indulgent for my poor english.

02/11/09, 10:50 AM   #40
TheDoctor
Piston Honda

Human Priest

Arathor
 Originally Posted by Elimbras Computing absorbs for disc. priest that have rapture, and negliging the partial absorb bug, it is quite easy to get the shield effective "healing". The following shoud work : 1/ Pair some direct heals and rapture gain, to estimate max mana of the priest. 2/ Compute all direct effective healing that triggers rapture (flash, greater and penance). 3/ Compute all rapture gain. 4/ From 1/ and 2/, compute rapture gain from direct heals. 5/ From 3/ and 4/, computre rapture gain from shields. 6/ From 1/ and 5/, compute shields absorb value.
This sounds easier than it is in practice on a real-time mod. Though it is part of what I am working on for my combat mod..... The problem right now is that everything I have come up with requires a pre-knowledge of what priests are disc and that disc priests have the PW:S Glyph (which they likely will).

What I am working towards in a mod is this:
- Adding a tracking tab that per player tracks absorbtion effects applied from all known sources and absorbtion effects expended. This generates a overall, current fight, absorbtion % effective for each player that can be used on later calculations.
- When adding data to the healing tab it checks if the player is disc, and if so calculates the maximal value of PW:S / DA that will be applied to the target (this is added to the absorbtion tab). The effective usage value for the target player is applied against the maximal value (add some math to ensure proper shift of effectiveness numbers based on a new PW:S has 30seconds before absorbtion expires and DA has a shorter 12sec window) - this generates a initial pass at shield effectiveness.
- Using data from effective healing of Flash, Greater Heal, Penance calculated expected rapture gains... Based on the rapture gains exceeding that value estimate the absorbtion rapture gains. Use this data to validate or modify the initial pass shield effectiveness data in the healing tab.

From this two Disc priests can have absorbtion effects landing on the same targets and generate a general effectiveness of each priests contributions to the same target. The data is double verified and should give fairly real values for the absorbtion applied/used/un-used. Most importantly the absorbtion tab will provide real insight into how much absorbtion gets used by each player and you can shift your PW:S usage to the targets that gain the most benefit (tanks + dps that takes damage).

Even though I am writing this to track multiple Disc priests in a raid and I think 2 Disc priests could work... I don't think it will be optimal for more than 1 Disc priest even in 25's. This is especially true as PW:S from 1 blocks the other and DA doesn't stack. Things could change but I won't hold my breath... For now I am very happy with running 1Disc/1Holy or 1Disc/2Holy in our 25s as our strengths play well too each other.

02/11/09, 10:58 AM   #41
Sureall
Von Kaiser

Draenei Priest

Thunderhorn
 Originally Posted by Elimbras Granted, the challenge is not extreme. I just always have difficulties to provide some numbers that are true in specific context, and that people will always generalize as a well-known fact latter. I've seen senior researchers doing this, I've seen good Wow player doing this, and I don't have any hope that the majority will be careful when dealing with numbers ;-) That's why I prefer to emphasize that healing is not hps before giving numbers. Please note that wrath of air totems provides also a static 5% boost to haste. And as far as I am concerned, I always have one or 2 shamans in heroic raids (and almost always 1 in 10s), whereas I can't count for sure on elemental shaman or boomkin. But what you wrote is mostly true. Haste will be better for a throughput stat once you have infinite mana, and has diminushing returns. There is just a few points in favor of crit I'd like to re-asset, just in case : 1) Inspiration is a huge bonus to crit. You don't need tons of crit to have it nearly full-time, but you need some crit. That part of crit, you don't want to miss. 2) Divine aegis is also a good bonus, compared to TBC case. Basically, it is close to meaning that crit heals heal for twice the amount of normal heals (whereas it was only 50% more during TBC). It would be better if Divine Aegis wouldn't replace itself, but that's still one good bonus for crits. Arguably, shielding is also a interesting feature (both for damage prevention and overhealing reduction). 3) Haste has also some limits, due to cooldowns for penance / PW:S / POM. Therefore, 1% more haste is less than 1% more heal. Therefore, it behaves comparably to crit as far as scaling is concerned (see later for detailed point). 4) Haste has a soft cap, which is the 1s gcd under bloodlust / power_infusion / borrowed time. That soft cap is not really far. Detailed point on scaling : Crit : Ignoring overhealing and overwriting of DA, each point in crit (all other things being equal) grants the same amount of hps : 1% more crit gives 1% (considering crit heals, including DA, heals for 200%, for simplicity) more of your non-crit healing. For that reason, depending on terminology, one can say its return is constant (in absolute value) or diminishing (in relative value : going for 0 to 1% crit is relatively better that for 99% to 100%). Haste : Haste divide casting time (and gcd). If one has x% of haste, the casting time is divided by (1 + x/100). In other words, the number of heals you throw in the same time-frame is multiplied by (1+x/100). Now, disc best heals are on cd. This means that even if they do be hasted, you can't throw more penance or PW:S. It just leave more room for flash or greater heal. If you have 100% haste, the same heals you cast without haste take half of the time. During the other half, you can now cast fh / gh. They are hasted, which means that you can throw during that half of the time the same number of heals you could throw unhasted during the full time). Basically, you've gain the hps of fh/gh unhasted. That's nice, but that's not doubling you hps either. More, if you consider x% of haste only, time to cast the same rotation takes you (1/(1+x/100) ) of the normal time. It leaves you x/100 / (1+x/100) ) for new heals. They are hasted by x%, so in that time frame, you can cast x/100 new heals. You've still gained x/100 of the hps of unhasted fh/gh. Once again, the return is either constant (in absolute value) or diminushing (in relative value). [B}Conclusion : [/b] Blizzard made sure that nearly all the stats have a constant absolute return. That's true for haste / crit / AP / spellpower and hit. The one case that was not constant in TBC was ArP and maybe spell penetration, which I've never been interested in (I don't know whether ArP has been "linearized" in 3.0 or not) . It was a common mistake during TBC for (french) hunts to consider that AP was "bad" because of static absolute return (the famous unmodified 14AP = 1dps), when crit / haste/ hit had relative returns and were not interesting. At least in EJ, I'd would be glad we don't make the same mistake in scaling. NB : I'm not native english speaker. Please be indulgent for my poor english.
Firstly, thank you for the clarification on static haste buffs, an oversight on my part. I have bolded the main point I want to discuss here.

Let me first give a situation that will hopefully conclude playstyle B as superior as well as a greater value given to haste assuming playstyle B. Both assume you are healing MT and spotting raid or OT

Playstyle A: Your WWS may have Penance as the number one heal and you like to use this on CD, keeping all the nice buffs disc has to offer up on the tank, DA,grace,inspiration etc.

Playstyle B: you mostly flash heal the MT and reserve penance for emergencies. Your WWS may have flash heal as 1 and PoM as 2 with penance as 3. What playstyle B allows is for a penance when a dps pulls aggro or when a boss soft enrages or a sarth deep breath. Basically reserving penance as you would pain suppression but without the long CD. You should never really have a situation where 2 players need penance at the same time(assuming raid is functioning as intended) and due to this the value of haste is supreme as you want a fast flash heal. The worries of penance being on CD is negated. Also while flash heal is not as effective as penance for keeping inspiration at el on the tank it still suffices enough to warrant playstyle B in my opinion.

02/11/09, 11:49 AM   #42
TheDoctor
Piston Honda

Human Priest

Arathor
 Originally Posted by Sureall Firstly, thank you for the clarification on static haste buffs, an oversight on my part. I have bolded the main point I want to discuss here. Let me first give a situation that will hopefully conclude playstyle B as superior as well as a greater value given to haste assuming playstyle B. Both assume you are healing MT and spotting raid or OT Playstyle A: Your WWS may have Penance as the number one heal and you like to use this on CD, keeping all the nice buffs disc has to offer up on the tank, DA,grace,inspiration etc. Playstyle B: you mostly flash heal the MT and reserve penance for emergencies. Your WWS may have flash heal as 1 and PoM as 2 with penance as 3. What playstyle B allows is for a penance when a dps pulls aggro or when a boss soft enrages or a sarth deep breath. Basically reserving penance as you would pain suppression but without the long CD. You should never really have a situation where 2 players need penance at the same time(assuming raid is functioning as intended) and due to this the value of haste is supreme as you want a fast flash heal. The worries of penance being on CD is negated. Also while flash heal is not as effective as penance for keeping inspiration at el on the tank it still suffices enough to warrant playstyle B in my opinion.
A & B Discussion
I don't think either of these can be labeled as a strict rule. I might be wrong for others but I run somewhere between and it all depends on the fight.

A: Penance imo should be used on CD if it can be effective in either 1) being mostly/all effective healing because it will regen mana instead of costing it (for me at least) and 2) if the grace/inspiration is needed on a high value target such as the MT/OT. Saving it lowers the number of potential usages and as it is really high HPS and HPM lowers overall performance.

B: The go to button for a dps that pulls aggro and other emergencies should be PW:S. It has a shorter CD so you can use it on MT/OT and random raid members regularly. PW:S has a large benefit to being cast more often due to BT. Also, if a dps starts taking dmg that you notice it is likely that other healers notice as well and cross healing is going to happen right away.
Scenario: Random dps starts taking massive dmg, is now <50% health on your raid frame and dropping. If 2 raid healers start to heal that person, or if CH is going to link to them and you also land a fast Penance. There will be a lot of overheal due to cross healing, and now Penance is on CD. If the target is still taking large damage what can you do? All that overheal is wasted and you don't have another Penance.... Conversly, if you first option for that person is PW:S you have provided an instant buffer of 6-7k hp. The cross healing does less overhealing. You PW:S might get absorbed immediately saving them or might remain for the next 30second partially or in whole if the damage stream starts again. Additionally, you just bought 25% haste for your next decision.... If the damage is still coming fast you can go to a Penance that doesn't consume BT or can do a possibly sub second Flash or a sub 2sec Gheal/PoH.

If you are MT/OT healing you can.... PW:S (the random dps) -> Penance (primary target) -> BT'd PoH/Flash/Gheal (whoever needs)... An alternative is PW:S (primary target) -> Penance (the random dps) -> BT'd PoH/Flash/Gheal. The problem with the second option is you can only choose it once per 15seconds, where the first option can happen every 4 seconds with every other one using immediately following the PW:S.

I see PW:S as the first answer that gives the most options for what next.

Crit vs. Haste
- I am working on math, just some current thoughts for now.
1. Inspiration doesn't require a high amount of crit to keep up on the tank, so isn't really a solid reason to stack crit.

2. DA is nice, but until we know how effective it is on targets other than the MT/OT (constant dmg stream) it isn't a reason to stack crit either. Also, depending on spell selection and haste crit becomes less beneficial at some point due to overwriting DA. With 1.2 second Flash heals and 1.4 second channeled Penance that is... 13 opportunities chain casting on a target to apply DA at 30% crit you will get on average 3.9 crits = .325 per second over the window of DA being active. Depending on the incoming damage spacing a crit flash before or after penance for a total of 2 crits will likely cause an overwrite. More haste compounds the situation just like more crit does.

3. The haste limit is 50% before you start to break the GCD hard minimum. This is only in current gearing a problem on the BT'd casts. Which is a great reason to use Gheal/PoH to consume BT both if used properly provide great HPS when that hasted (I have gotten off 1.3sec PoH's). If you use only PoM/Flash/Penance/PW:S your value for haste is greatly diminished.

4. When valuing Crit as a stat you can't completely ignore overhealing. For simplicities sake you can but it isn't realistic because overhealing impacts everything and most especially rapture returns.

5. If you take a theoretical 2 second heal that heals for 5000. In a 2 second window you can cast it once for 2500hps. If you have 100% haste you can now cast 2 in 2seconds for a total of 5000hps. That is doubling your hps (+100%) if it is effective. It also gives twice the opportunity for a crit which yields DA absorbtion and potential for mana return. If you have 50% haste you can now cast 3 in 4seconds for a total of 3750hps. That is +50% to your hps... You can come close to 1% haste -> 1% more hps if you choose targets properly using the same spell.

Take a scenario with 2 spell choices:
Spell 1 - 2 second heal that heals for 5000
Spell 2 - 3 second heal that heals for 20000

The 100% haste scenario allows:
Spell 1 only - gain 100% hps
Spell 2 only - gain 100% hps

If you only have 2.5 seconds to heal during:
Spell 1 only = 10000/2 (half second lost) = 5000hps (+100%), in window 4000hps (+100%)
Spell 2 only = 20000/1.5 (full second lost) = 13333hps (+100%), in window 8000hps (previously impossible)
Spell 1 & 2 = 25000/2.5 = 10000hps without the haste was impossible so effectively (+400%)

In a time constrained situation where your spell selection can change you can gain non-linear hps increases with haste. This is based on spell selection effectiveness and having targets that you can use higher impact heals upon. Actual scenarios will vary well below the theoretical obviously.

Last edited by TheDoctor : 02/11/09 at 12:22 PM.

02/11/09, 12:10 PM   #44
atrinitydream
Von Kaiser

Pandaren Shaman

Alexstrasza
 Originally Posted by TheDoctor [Insightful Earthsiege Diamond] - Is only superior at lower gear levels and when regen is a significant problem. [Ember Skyflare Diamond] - Is superior as a combined throughput and regen meta. At 1100 Int it provides more intelligence than the Insightful. 1 Int = .1875mp5 (Replenishment) 1 Int = .208mp5 (6min fight, mana pool size) 1 Int = .083mp5 (6min fight, shadowfiend) 1 Int = .017mp5 (6min fight, DA absorbs procing Rapture) - Might need new modeling 1 Int = up to .5 mana per cast flash/greater heal = 4500/11460*.025*20*200/360*5 = ~.545mp5 1 Int = up to 1.5 mana per cast Penance = 3500/11460*.025*20*3/7*5 = ~.327mp5 1 Int = 1.3675mp5 IED is worth ~30mp5 on average... So for ESD to equal its regen you need to reach, 30/1.3675 = 21.93 Int + 21 Int = 42.93 Int. This requires an unreal amount of Int somewhere around ~1900 unbuffed. Though at 1500 Int you receive more than the minimum mana regen that the IED models too, considering you also receive spell power it is well worth it. Using ESD also frees you from having to use any Purple gems which are in all ways inferior, unless you really want the socket bonus.
I posted this on the Simple Questions thread a week or two ago, but I don't agree that the ISD is only a valid choice at lower gear levels. You just have to not consider it in a vacuum. (Don't misconstrue what I'm saying to mean that I think the ESD is an invalid choice - I think that in this as in most gemming choices there are options.)

30 mp5 is a non-trivial amount of regen, given that that number is right (Constantius originally gives 50 MP5 in his Compendium, and I haven't mathed out to see which number is closer to right). If you look at it in terms of other gems, if you're currently using [Luminous Monarch Topaz] in red slots, you could trade two of those for [Runed Scarlet Ruby], gaining roughly the same spellpower as the ESD while losing nowhere near that amount of regen.

Furthermore - and I'm assuming throughout that regen is significant, which though not really true right now should hopefully become more significant with Ulduar - if you consider the number of pieces you could drop spirit/mp5 from to make up the gained 30-50 mp5 (i.e. [Pennant Cloak]) it ends up being better for throughput than ESD and 30-50 mp5 worth of regen gear.

 02/11/09, 12:21 PM #45 The Not So Evil Piston Honda     Brundtland Night Elf Priest   Trollbane (EU) I'm personally still a fan of [Item not found!]. Very simplified, it increases the value of all mana regen via DA/Rapture by 3%, and increases value of any crit buffs you have by 3%. In some cases this Meta could help tip the scales from preferring Haste over Crit to the other way around. Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules. Get Your Rawr 2.3.x!

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