Discipline priest raiding compendium - Page 6

Lambi · 02/15/09, 4:21 AM

Originally Posted by Imua

Raid healing:

It's not BAD to raid heal as disc, but you need to understand a few things first. If there's a localized AOE, CoH and CH are just plain better. *BUT* there are certain situations where disc can do decently enough as raid heals. If it's a fight like Sapphiron, where there is steady damage going out there, you should feel free to pop out a PW:S on pretty much anyone. Any caster will benefit from the uninterruption, and you get mana back from the shield being absorbed. So putting a PW:S on anyone is beneficial. Also, disc is TERRIFIC at saving the random person who's in danger of getting 2-shot (Malygos phase 2). A shield+Penance+FHeal can easily save some random in the raid.

Again, though: those fights are isolated. There are situations where disc can do an adequate job raid healing, although it still doesn't have the tools like CoH. A targetable PoH in 3.1 may prove to be worthwhile, though.

Sapphiron's aura doesn't interrupt, so the only caster gaining from a shield dps-wise is an arcane mage that gets damage from the absorb. But yeah, disc is very very good at preventing instagibs on Maly p2. I think the only fight where a disc priest really, really shines now is Sarth3D, since not only can you MT heal there, you can shield and get BT -> PoH.

Elimbras · 02/15/09, 8:43 AM

I was fine on raid healing on Sapphiron.
Thants to high mana regen, I could POH the melee group I asked to be in, shield a lot of people, POM, and penance / flash for the free time.

But that's one of the few fights were disc. has good tools to use. Low AOE on everyone.

The other good fights are the one with RST. Disc is extremely good at keeping a RST alive. Mechanisms like the Ice-block on the first boss of Hyjal Mount are free-loot for Disc. Same is KT in raid 10 for the ice-block : with good placement, only one or 2 people take damage, and you save them easily.

Kashir · 02/15/09, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Elimbras

But that's one of the few fights were disc. has good tools to use. Low AOE on everyone.

I think this is one of the key points. If everyone is taking damage, then PoH becomes an exceptional heal while CoH, CH and WG have to compete on a direct HPM / HPS basis. You can be certain that your PWS and DA will be consumed, and you can make heavy non-wasted use of Borrowed Time.

Similarly, Penance and PWS are exceptional for handling RST spikes.

If only a few people take spike damage at a time (Malygos p1, for example), Disc is rather poor at raid healing. At the moment there are more examples of this type of fight, but we don't know what will be coming in Uldaur.

Seacove · 02/15/09, 11:42 PM

I'm curious about all the hate towards crit.

While yes DA does not stack great with itself it in no way lessens the usefulness of the spell in my eyes. I'm usually the MT healer in my raids since and while I am not stacking only crit I am emphasizing it over haste. I think I read somewhere on these boards once before that DA usually gets consumed withing 2-3 seconds assuming the tank does not avoid incoming damage. As a Disc priest I feel it is out job to ensure that a DA is up on the MT as much as possible. If all Disc does is stack haste in this current content I don't see us being much more then a weakened Holy Pally in terms of Healing Output.

Ive noticed that a lot of people who are stacking haste as a Disc priest are also sacrificing Spell Power for Regen (Especially in terms of gem selection) to counter act the larger mana usage associated with hasted spells as well as the fact that they are proccing DA a lot less often thus returning less mana regen from rapture absorbs which again compounds itself more since the DA's they do proc are not as strong since they again sacrificed spell power which probaly feeds their desire to stack more regen/int. (ugh run on sentence)

And usually in the majority of my experience...and maybe this comes from having a druid MT which dodges a lot of the time. DA usually only reapplies over itself when the tank dodges the Mobs incoming attacks..in which case when MT healing, haste wouldn't do much more in my opinion either unless of course the tank is deprived of a large portion of his/her life due to say Sarth 3d.

Another question I had, is why are no Disc priests promoting the use of [Gothik's Cowl] While I might also be inclined to agree that Hood of Rationality is better. Depending on your current gear set I think Gothiks is amazing. This is Especially true when I see people saying [Cowl of Vanity] is best in slot...why? For 7 more Int and 14 more haste or is it because of the massive amount of spirit...I'm simply confused here...

Again I don't ignore haste, not at all there is indeed a balancing act. I just simply don't understand what the appeal is to stack Haste and almost ignore crit. If that's one goal then I don't see why one would not roll a pally.

Evolve · 02/16/09, 1:31 AM

Originally Posted by Seacove

I'm curious about all the hate towards crit.

While yes DA does not stack great with itself it in no way lessens the usefulness of the spell in my eyes. I'm usually the MT healer in my raids since and while I am not stacking only crit I am emphasizing it over haste. I think I read somewhere on these boards once before that DA usually gets consumed withing 2-3 seconds assuming the tank does not avoid incoming damage. As a Disc priest I feel it is out job to ensure that a DA is up on the MT as much as possible. If all Disc does is stack haste in this current content I don't see us being much more then a weakened Holy Pally in terms of Healing Output.

Ive noticed that a lot of people who are stacking haste as a Disc priest are also sacrificing Spell Power for Regen (Especially in terms of gem selection) to counter act the larger mana usage associated with hasted spells as well as the fact that they are proccing DA a lot less often thus returning less mana regen from rapture absorbs which again compounds itself more since the DA's they do proc are not as strong since they again sacrificed spell power which probaly feeds their desire to stack more regen/int. (ugh run on sentence)

And usually in the majority of my experience...and maybe this comes from having a druid MT which dodges a lot of the time. DA usually only reapplies over itself when the tank dodges the Mobs incoming attacks..in which case when MT healing, haste wouldn't do much more in my opinion either unless of course the tank is deprived of a large portion of his/her life due to say Sarth 3d.

Another question I had, is why are no Disc priests promoting the use of Gothik's Cowl - Item - World of Warcraft While I might also be inclined to agree that Hood of Rationality is better. Depending on your current gear set I thinks Gothiks is amazing. This is Especially true when I see people saying Cowl of Vanity - Item - World of Warcraft is best in slot...why? For 7 more Int and 4 more haste or is it because of the massive amount of spirit...I'm simply confused here...

Again I don't ignore haste, not at all there is indeed a balancing act. I just simply don't understand what the appeal is to stack Haste and almost ignore crit. If that's one goal then I don't see why one would not roll a pally.

I don't think the current appeal is the stack haste (at least I don't). I personaly go for a balance between crit and haste, the one is useless without the other. The current problem with a lot of people is that they ignore haste and stack crit (I did this myself when I started playing as a disc priest).

Blåtira · 02/16/09, 5:36 AM

I would suggest you add the inscriber-only shoulder enchant

Master's Inscription of the Storm
"Permanently adds 61 spell power and 15 critical strike rating to shoulder armor."

I do understand that it may not be the best stat-wise but to me [Formula: Enchant Boots - Tuskarr's Vitality] is also a viable enchant for boots. Mobility is sometimes underrated in PvE.

Elimbras · 02/16/09, 6:37 AM

Originally Posted by Seacove

And usually in the majority of my experience...and maybe this comes from having a druid MT which dodges a lot of the time. DA usually only reapplies over itself when the tank dodges the Mobs incoming attacks..in which case when MT healing, haste wouldn't do much more in my opinion either unless of course the tank is deprived of a large portion of his/her life due to say Sarth 3d.

That's a good point.
DA overwriting occurs mainly when the tank avoids damage.
In such case, haste would not have been a lot helpful either (except to throw a heal on the raid maybe).

skittled · 02/16/09, 7:06 AM

Originally Posted by Blåtira

I do understand that it may not be the best stat-wise but to me [Formula: Enchant Boots - Tuskarr's Vitality] is also a viable enchant for boots. Mobility is sometimes underrated in PvE.

Personally, I use Tuskarr's Vitality because I don't need the spirit, nor do I need the hit from Icebreaker. I like the added survivability (due to both stam and extra mobility) from Tuskarr's Vitality, even if it's quite minimal. It's also pretty easy for me to catch up on lost crit because I'm a JC. I can understand why some people would avoid Tuskarr's Vitality, but I agree that it's a viable enchant.

Vvandort · 02/16/09, 1:21 PM

Thanks a lot for this thread.

Concerning spirit vs. mp5 for disc: When assuming 100% IFSR (i.e. flat 30% of spirit-based regen -- is this a reasonable number?), gemming mp5 wins over gemming spirit until very late gear levels:

"Half blue" gems are either 3 mp5 or 8 spirit (9.24 with Enlightenment and Kings). Using the formula from Nidaba's compendium, and at 1000 / 1200 / 1500 intellect, 9.24 more spirit return 2.44 / 2.68 / 2.99 mp5. The break-even is at 1508 intellect.

Of course this only is a concern where you require something blue (meta gem, strong socket bonus).

xeonio · 02/16/09, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Seacove

I'm curious about all the hate towards crit.

While yes DA does not stack great with itself it in no way lessens the usefulness of the spell in my eyes. I'm usually the MT healer in my raids since and while I am not stacking only crit I am emphasizing it over haste. I think I read somewhere on these boards once before that DA usually gets consumed withing 2-3 seconds assuming the tank does not avoid incoming damage. As a Disc priest I feel it is out job to ensure that a DA is up on the MT as much as possible. If all Disc does is stack haste in this current content I don't see us being much more then a weakened Holy Pally in terms of Healing Output.

Ive noticed that a lot of people who are stacking haste as a Disc priest are also sacrificing Spell Power for Regen (Especially in terms of gem selection) to counter act the larger mana usage associated with hasted spells as well as the fact that they are proccing DA a lot less often thus returning less mana regen from rapture absorbs which again compounds itself more since the DA's they do proc are not as strong since they again sacrificed spell power which probaly feeds their desire to stack more regen/int. (ugh run on sentence)

And usually in the majority of my experience...and maybe this comes from having a druid MT which dodges a lot of the time. DA usually only reapplies over itself when the tank dodges the Mobs incoming attacks..in which case when MT healing, haste wouldn't do much more in my opinion either unless of course the tank is deprived of a large portion of his/her life due to say Sarth 3d.

Another question I had, is why are no Disc priests promoting the use of [Gothik's Cowl] While I might also be inclined to agree that Hood of Rationality is better. Depending on your current gear set I think Gothiks is amazing. This is Especially true when I see people saying [Cowl of Vanity] is best in slot...why? For 7 more Int and 4 more haste or is it because of the massive amount of spirit...I'm simply confused here...

Again I don't ignore haste, not at all there is indeed a balancing act. I just simply don't understand what the appeal is to stack Haste and almost ignore crit. If that's one goal then I don't see why one would not roll a pally.

I don't think anyone is advocating going to the extreme of only haste or only crit... the debate is over which to value more. What benefits your playing style the most. Some have good arguments about why crit is best for them and some have good arguments about haste. I think everyone agrees that you need both in order to perform your job as a disc priest.

Personally, I pick haste > crit. I also mainly raid heal instead of MT healing. Crit for me isn't as beneficial as it is for a MT healer. I'm also highly against a crit rate of higher then 30% raid buffed. I'm not sure if you mentioned it but I'm guessing greater heal is your preferred healing spell, thus the higher desire for crit while those advocating haste are most likely using flash, but that's pure speculation. Should the question instead be greater v. flash instead of crit v. haste?

The items listed as BiS (on rezthweak.wordpress.com) are based on a point system. Each stat is given a 'weight' and then the items weight is compared against other items. While spirit may not be a main stat for disc priests it does still effect your mana regeneration. The stat weights used on Rez The Weak are from dwarfpriest.com.

TheDoctor · 02/16/09, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Seacove

I'm curious about all the hate towards crit.

While yes DA does not stack great with itself it in no way lessens the usefulness of the spell in my eyes. I'm usually the MT healer in my raids since and while I am not stacking only crit I am emphasizing it over haste. I think I read somewhere on these boards once before that DA usually gets consumed withing 2-3 seconds assuming the tank does not avoid incoming damage. As a Disc priest I feel it is out job to ensure that a DA is up on the MT as much as possible. If all Disc does is stack haste in this current content I don't see us being much more then a weakened Holy Pally in terms of Healing Output.

Ive noticed that a lot of people who are stacking haste as a Disc priest are also sacrificing Spell Power for Regen (Especially in terms of gem selection) to counter act the larger mana usage associated with hasted spells as well as the fact that they are proccing DA a lot less often thus returning less mana regen from rapture absorbs which again compounds itself more since the DA's they do proc are not as strong since they again sacrificed spell power which probaly feeds their desire to stack more regen/int. (ugh run on sentence)

And usually in the majority of my experience...and maybe this comes from having a druid MT which dodges a lot of the time. DA usually only reapplies over itself when the tank dodges the Mobs incoming attacks..in which case when MT healing, haste wouldn't do much more in my opinion either unless of course the tank is deprived of a large portion of his/her life due to say Sarth 3d.

Another question I had, is why are no Disc priests promoting the use of [Gothik's Cowl] While I might also be inclined to agree that Hood of Rationality is better. Depending on your current gear set I think Gothiks is amazing. This is Especially true when I see people saying [Cowl of Vanity] is best in slot...why? For 7 more Int and 4 more haste or is it because of the massive amount of spirit...I'm simply confused here...

Again I don't ignore haste, not at all there is indeed a balancing act. I just simply don't understand what the appeal is to stack Haste and almost ignore crit. If that's one goal then I don't see why one would not roll a pally.

Personally I don't ignore Crit or stack Haste. Depending on preference of stats, which for me is Int > SP > Haste > Crit > Spi > Mp5...

Gothiks Cowl (+50 crit) vs. Cowl of Vanity (+7 Int, +14 Haste, +63 Spirit)

On the left you have 50 stat points vs. 84 on the right side. If you say Int > Haste = Crit, then Spirit would have to be about 1/3 the value for the crit of Gothiks to be about equal from stat value scoring system. Not that Gothiks is a bad choice it is a matter of need / preference.... If you are low on crit and can afford to lose int/haste/spirit to get it and it works for your gear setup, great. I think using my own stat weights Gothik's only falls short of Cowl of Vanity by ~5 total points... There are actually 3-4 head slot items (Cowl of Vanity, Hood of Rationality, Valorous, Gothik's Cowl) that I stat weight as 244 - 249 which is a marginal difference and could be sidegrade items that you swap per encounter.

Side Note: Your comparison counted it as 4 more haste when it should have been 14, maybe you mistyped. Also you seemed to marginalize spirit to be ~0. While no Disc priest would place Spirit high on the list of stats it still has a place and shouldn't be completely taken out of account.

You talk about DA getting consumed in 2-3 seconds if the tank doesn't avoid damage. Did you look at the math I posted 1 page back? You show no actual evidence for why you value crit more, just the "if you MT heal" you should. If you reach 30% crit raid buffed, you have a 83.15% chance of applying at least 1 DA over the 3.9seconds of penance + 2 flash, if you push up your crit you push up the percentage it doesn't push up the percentage at equal pace it very slightly diminishes. Even if you look at using Penance -> Gheal @30% crit you have ~76% chance of getting at least 1 crit in the ~3.4 seconds it takes to cast. The situation already indicates that you will have a high presence of DA on a tank.

Haste and Crit both up throughput... Only Haste does so without inherit loses to effectiveness prior to considering the inevitable overhealing.

The blanket "larger mana usage associated with hasted spells" used by many people really irritate me. A hasted spell cost ZERO additional mana. A hasted heal has a higher probability of landing first and being effective yielding rapture verses a slower overheal. Just because you have more haste doesn't mean you HAVE to use every GCD just that you have more time/options. Another individual already indicated mathematically the value of haste and balancing more casts with rapture/int for approximate equal regen.

Further you state "DA usually only reapplies over itself when the tank dodges the Mobs incoming attacks" how is this measured? Did you create a mod, parse log files, or something similar? Or is it the feel you get from playing? My point is we need to generate solid numbers, ... if we can learn what the DA effective usage is then we will have better data with which to evaluate talents, gear, stats, etc...

atrinitydream · 02/16/09, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by Vvandort

Thanks a lot for this thread.

Concerning spirit vs. mp5 for disc: When assuming 100% IFSR (i.e. flat 30% of spirit-based regen -- is this a reasonable number?), gemming mp5 wins over gemming spirit until very late gear levels:

"Half blue" gems are either 3 mp5 or 8 spirit (9.24 with Enlightenment and Kings). Using the formula from Nidaba's compendium, and at 1000 / 1200 / 1500 intellect, 9.24 more spirit return 2.44 / 2.68 / 2.99 mp5. The break-even is at 1508 intellect.

Of course this only is a concern where you require something blue (meta gem, strong socket bonus).

The way I always look at spirit vs. MP5 is that the ability to 'emergency' regen is more valuable than the .5 mp5 (or whatever the number works out to be) lost from gemming spirit.

In most normal circumstances, the amount of regen gained from MP5 over spirit regen is extremely minimal and unlikely to make much real difference. In more extreme situations - let's say I die (I do sometimes stand in the fire!) and am battle-rezzed mid-fight. The extra mana pool I can gain back if I'm say, innervated, or even if I just take a ten-second regen breather at some point if I'm completely OOM, is infintely more valuable to me than the minimal amount of I5SR regen.

In other words, by generally (not always) choosing spirit over MP5 when possible, I figure I'm putting a lot more regen 'in the bank,' as it were, for when I really need it - at the cost of a only a very little bit of constant I5SR regen.

Imua · 02/16/09, 3:44 PM

Until mana regen becomes an issue and Rapture is not a large part of your mana regen, then spirit may as well be valued at 0 (or approximately so). That'd be my argument, anyway.

Of course someone with 0 spirit is going to have mana problems, but spirit (like int) just sorta comes along with your pieces.

I'd argue that 50 crit is worth more than 14 haste, so I'd pick up Gothik's over Vanity. But I think Hood of Rationality is better than both. Now having said all that, I'd take any of them, since I'm still wearing my dang T6.

Seacove · 02/16/09, 5:52 PM

Ok just a few quick things here.

Gothiks Cowl (+50 crit) vs. Cowl of Vanity (+7 Int, +14 Haste, +63 Spirit)

On the left you have 50 stat points vs. 84 on the right side.

While yes Spirit does indeed have a weight, in most cases with gear selection it could be placed to near zero seeing as how most of our mana regen comes from rapture and replenishment classes. So in some eyes,(Especially those who already have sufficient regen) Gothiks would have a 29 stat point lead. As was originally pointed out spirit just kinda comes with our gear. Its like an added bonus. But as you stated those 3-4 Helms are all quite close to each other and it does come down to preference.

You talk about DA getting consumed in 2-3 seconds if the tank doesn't avoid damage. Did you look at the math I posted 1 page back? You show no actual evidence for why you value crit more, just the "if you MT heal" you should. If you reach 30% crit raid buffed, you have a 83.15% chance of applying at least 1 DA over the 3.9seconds of penance + 2 flash, if you push up your crit you push up the percentage it doesn't push up the percentage at equal pace it very slightly diminishes. Even if you look at using Penance -> Gheal @30% crit you have ~76% chance of getting at least 1 crit in the ~3.4 seconds it takes to cast. The situation already indicates that you will have a high presence of DA on a tank.

Further you state "DA usually only reapplies over itself when the tank dodges the Mobs incoming attacks" how is this measured? Did you create a mod, parse log files, or something similar? Or is it the feel you get from playing? My point is we need to generate solid numbers, ... if we can learn what the DA effective usage is then we will have better data with which to evaluate talents, gear, stats, etc...

Yes I did look at your math, and while being able to show mathematically the chance to apply DA twice with crit values when casting a penance is nifty...but what exactly does that mean/matter? Its how the spell works, and in no way reduces ones ability to heal effectively if all 3 crit. Would you rather have penance crit 3 times or have it finish casting slightly faster? (which if your like most Disc priests the Penance is cast after a BT so its already crazy fast). It is a flaw of the spell that each crit creates a new DA....but I don't think the answer to this is to lower the possible output of Penance by making sure it does not crit 3 times...It just sounds like you are trying to make sure every time you cast a penance it only crits once. Why? Truthfully I hope blizzard reworks the way DA works with penance, no doubt there could be some improvements.

And again with Penance > Gheal at 75% or Penance to 2x Flash at 83.15% what exactly is wrong in this scenario? I simply see a penance heal followed by a Gheal/FHeal which gives a large HPS jump with a very nice possibility of putting a DA on the target.

I am in no way emphasizing stacking crit and crit only. I am simply trying to understand the rational with current gear sets of people trying to obtain as close to possible 1s Fheals with no regard to crit.

And why on earth would I need a mod to parse if a DA overwrites itself when the tank avoids damage. If you are truly MT healing and keeping grace up on the tank 100% and he avoids dmg well yah...DA will get overwritten if you crit. Same for hasted heals, if you keep grace on 100% of the time you will have scenarios where your heal is 100% overheal.

A hasted heal has a higher probability of landing first and being effective yielding rapture verses a slower overheal.

Sounds like your talking about sniping other healers here....which doesn't that just mean someone else wasted mana instead of you? Does not seem like a great argument to me in the overall picture of raid effectiveness. Though I guess it does mean that the Disc priest is more effective and higher on the healing meters

Yes it is not optimal...but it sure is not the end of the world if I PW:S/BT > Penance > Gheal and get all 4 to crit. It just means I might of saved my tank, Placed a large DA on the tank to prevent more incoming dmg, and sure as hell just had a higher HPS in that ~5 sec window then someone who did not crit. And in fights like sarth 3D that is a huge tank saver after a breath.

And i am starting to repeat myself but it seems to boil down to preference/encounter. I wish blizzard would make it possible to track absorbs to a healer so we could get some much needed/better information.

I simply feel that we should gear crit to a point where the RNG has as little effect as possible while not ignoring the large benefits of Haste. With some of the current gear sets I have seen linked I can only imagine how often the RNG would be kind enough to have 6+ spells cast without a single DA. With my current gear set of ~26% + 4% from renewed hope so ~30% total unbuffed i have had numerous streaks with no crits at all from penance while raid buffed!

This is just my opinion but I find the 20-25% crit unbuffed mark (not including renewed hope) to be a very nice place to stand. I currently am standing at 26% which I plan on lowering a smidgen in favor of some more haste.

atrinitydream · 02/16/09, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Imua

Until mana regen becomes an issue and Rapture is not a large part of your mana regen, then spirit may as well be valued at 0 (or approximately so). That'd be my argument, anyway.

In even bothering to discuss regen, I think we're assuming that come Ulduar regen will be non-trivial (unlike now). You could take the same tack and argue that pushing spellpower, crit, and haste is irrelevant right now because no encounter really needs that kind of throughput.

Even with gearing extremely conservatively (that is, with a fair amount of attention paid to regen), I personally have run into mana problems from time to time. Generally, these were in extremely odd circumstances - i.e. a KT kill with primarily alts where the MT accidentally pulled him into an Evaded position after the adds were out and restored a good half of his health - but I'm assuming that fights that demand that kind of healing will become more common when the content becomes less trivial.