Grace isn't powerful enough a talent to be that deep in the tree if all you get is +6% healing on one target. The 3% mitigation isn't all that great when BoS is readily available and doesn't need to be "maintained" and there is no penalty.
Being a single target healer is one thing. But losing the benefit of a 2 talents specifically because you DO heal a second target is crap. I would understand if 6% healing was considerably strong but it isn't. There are talents in lots of areas that apply directly to the spell and not the target... Don't require stacking and aren't only functional when you do not heal other targets.
Keep in mind that with the PvP 4 piece set bonus, WS is lowered to 13 secs, which is close enough to the 12 seconds hidden cooldown on the energize. Maybe in Season 9000 the set bonus is -3 seconds on WS. Or maybe they just want us to wander around the curious fact that 12 seconds just came out of nowhere while we let more pressing matters be pushed aside.
Given all these changes, I really can't see how Discipline will keep up in longer fights against Holy Paladins and even Holy Priests. Many changes are just plain contradictory, as mentioned many times here, so I'll just wait for the character copy to open up again before making any decision, which means a whole new wardrobe and accessories.
From my test in the actual PTR, the PW:Shield rapture effect is triggered by full absorption, dispel, time out or even right click. If I cast on myself PWS then wait 28 sec then right click it I have 514 mana back. If I cast it again immediatly and right click again I gain 514 right away.
So that means that with 21K+ mana and the talents that reduce its cost, PWS is essentially a free spell.
I have not been able to test the energize on two targets, but when I casted it on a mage and cast again every 15 sec, the mage gained 2% of his mana every time and I gained my 514 mana everytime.
From my test in the actual PTR, the PW:Shield rapture effect is triggered by full absorption, dispel, time out or even right click. If I cast on myself PWS then wait 28 sec then right click it I have 514 mana back. If I cast it again immediatly and right click again I gain 514 right away.
So that means that with 21K+ mana and the talents that reduce its cost, PWS is essentially a free spell.
I have not been able to test the energize on two targets, but when I casted it on a mage and cast again every 15 sec, the mage gained 2% of his mana every time and I gained my 514 mana everytime.
Hope that it will clear things for you all.
Well...either the tooltip is wrong then (which I don't think) or the talent just isn't done yet.
Come to think about it, if Rapture is intended to work the way it does on the PTR at the moment, this change wouldn't be a regen nerf anymore (or at least not as big one) but a push from Blizz like 'Stop trying to top meters and play Disc the way we want you to', if that makes any sense.
So currently on the PTR, casting PW:S procs rapture when the shield is removed no matter how the shield is removed. This basicly means that as soon as your mana pool reaches 21360 (derived from the new PWS cost a few posts back) you should spam PWS on every free GCD since it will yield more mana back then spent.
If rapture gets changed to also a 12s proc CD for us, it means we should cast at least one PWS every 12seconds. With a 25K mana pool this would yield to ~38mp5 and to ~90mp5 for a 30K mana pool.
What I don't like about the new Rapture is that ultimately you get less mana returns the larger your shield gets, because it won't fully absorbed quite as often. Maybe they should make Rapture work only for shields, but let it give mana from partial absorbs like now.
I wouldn't expect to ever see PW: Barrier. There is no reference to it anywhere in the PTR notes or recent Blizz posts. It doesn't fit into the tree and it would make Disc too similar to Holy. Better ask for improved output elsewhere I'm afraid.
Originally Posted by Sharajat
Hmm, question. Reflective shield is now supposedly working. Is it direct damage, or does AOE damage count?
From the patch-notes:
Reflective Shield has been moved from Tier 7 to Tier 5. It is now a 2 point talent and causes 22/45% of the damage you absorb with Power Word: Shield to reflect back at the attacker.
It's self-only just like before. It just costs less points now. Definitely not for raiding.
Hm. Wonder if they're either (still) not aware of how rapture is working on PTR atm with no cd on the proc for the priest, or if it's really intended to not have a cooldown?
Also, what could these "1 or 2" more disc talents be we haven't seen yet. PW:Barrier obviously one, but 2?
This is GC's response to a recent Disc topic discussion..
"BUT GHOSTCRAWLER PROMISED ME A PONY!
I believe there are 1 or 2 more Disc talent changes you don't have yet that boost healing a little more.
We're not worried about Disc mana generation, because it was really good before, but let us know if you get on the PTR how it feels. "
Obviously, this doesn't either state PW:Barrier is still coming nor does it preclude it. The removal of DS from the tree does leave a spot for a talent based spell and I don't buy the fact that Soul Warding is that spot. I still expect to see PW:Barrier personally.
The point about mana generation... Right now we are "really good" which is actually too good.
Comparing all current versus the "known" future mechanics, for mana reduction/regeneration.
Flash Heal
Future Mana Reduction = Current Rapture Returns
3863*.18*.15 = (Avg.Heal/11500 + Avg.DA/11500)*2.5%*ManaPool
Looking at my current gear this approximates too:
100% effective healing and DA absorbtion = 35% of the mana I get now
50% effective healing and DA absorbtion = 70% of the mana I get now
Note: The current state of Flash scales with Spell Power, Int, and Crit too well which is a problem. The future state has a guaranteed cost reduction without regard to effectiveness of the healing and does not scale at all.
Greater Heal & Penance
Lose all current mana regeneration which is significant hit to Greater Heal. It hurts Penance mana efficiency in the future state but today it is a "free" cast.
PW:S
Future Mana Reduction + Future Rapture Return = Current Rapture Returns
ManaPool*2.5% + 3863*.23*.30 = (Absorb/11500)*2.5%*ManaPool
Looking at my current gear this approximates too:
Fully absorbed PW:S (outside any CD) = 255% of the mana I get now
Partially absorbed PW:S (used/total) = The balance point is a 76% utilized shield
Unused PW:S (none used) = ~Infinite Increase (266.547 mana less future state & 0 mana returned current state)
Fully absorbed PW:S (inside any CD) = 76% of the mana I get now
Note: The current state of PW:S scales with Spell Power & Int and the future state scales with only Int.
Overall, other than cases where I might want to have used Greater Heal there isn't a significant issue that I can see for mana. Granted we won't have the excess to spend on things like lots of PoH or overhealing, but we will be able to do our job. The reduced CD on Penance via the Glyph is the offset for Greater Heal efficiency and a boost to throughput, as I would prefer to use Penance over Greater Heal now and even more in the future.
I don't think there is much to worry about for regen other than the timing of PW:S consumption for any CD that may get put on the Rapture return that is 12 sec or less. It would seem that they really don't currently know about the nature of the PW:S Rapture procs - I expect it to get changed. The PTR state is entirely OP much more than the current rapture.
I have been able to test with 2 people in the ptr : there is no 12 cd cooldown neither. Each player received the buff, even at 2 sec intervals and I was receiving the full mana return.
I do believe it is bugged at this moment, because that would mean that we could PWS 10 people every 15 sec, for 7K absorption plus 1K+ heal (glyph) plus these 10 people would receive 15 energy/8 rage/ 2% mana/ 32 runic powers per 15 sec. A little bit too much I think. Oh and those 10 pws would not cost a single mana.
I have been rethinking my preliminary talent choices and I think I'll actually go with something like this, pending any changes blizz makes. I went down holy far enough to get Improved Healing at the sacrifice of Renewed Hope and Focused Will (total of 7% crit). Crit no longer helps with mana regen, and Improved Healing should be worth about 78 mp5 for Penance alone.
Penance now costs 618 mana, with Improved Healing it comes down to 618*0.85 = 525 mana. Assuming it is used every 6 seconds (glyphed), that works out to (618-525)*(5/6) = 77.5 mp5.
My personal theorycrafting take on the disc changes is that it basically turns a disc priest into a shield-bot. If PW:S becomes your #1 "heal" and basically becomes spammable, then that's all you're doing. Shielding against incoming damage and letting other healers fill them back up.
So the only reason you're bringing a priest is basically an "intelligent" 6k hp buff to all raiders. Disc priests become a glorified hp buff.
(OK, extreme case to be sure)
I have been rethinking my preliminary talent choices and I think I'll actually go with something like this, pending any changes blizz makes. I went down holy far enough to get Improved Healing at the sacrifice of Renewed Hope and Focused Will (total of 7% crit). Crit no longer helps with mana regen, and Improved Healing should be worth about 78 mp5 for Penance alone.
Penance now costs 618 mana, with Improved Healing it comes down to 618*0.85 = 525 mana. Assuming it is used every 6 seconds (glyphed), that works out to (618-525)*(5/6) = 77.5 mp5.
This is a nice idea that I hadn't considered. I agree that you really don't lose that much -- Focused Will seems a bit too Pvp-oriented to dump 3 talents point into. I think it'll really boil down to how much regen we need. Just doing the math today based on some Patch logs, I'm losing about 70% of my rapture regen, or 25% of my total regen due to the change. Ofc, that assumes that I cast the exact same way I do now, which I wouldn't, so it remains to be seen what the real values are once we adjust for the new mechanics and CDs
My personal theorycrafting take on the disc changes is that it basically turns a disc priest into a shield-bot. If PW:S becomes your #1 "heal" and basically becomes spammable, then that's all you're doing. Shielding against incoming damage and letting other healers fill them back up.
So the only reason you're bringing a priest is basically an "intelligent" 6k hp buff to all raiders. Disc priests become a glorified hp buff.
(OK, extreme case to be sure)
You say that like it's a bad thing!!
Disc is starting to look like an awesome raid tool. Finally priests will have some specific role other than the "well rounded" healer they currently are and if used properly can make the job of all your other healers much easier.
There are few things more satisfying seeing your hateful tank on Naxx 10 take less damage than the main tank when both are equally geared and skilled.
Disc is starting to look like an awesome raid tool. Finally priests will have some specific role other than the "well rounded" healer they currently are and if used properly can make the job of all your other healers much easier.
There are few things more satisfying seeing your hateful tank on Naxx 10 take less damage than the main tank when both are equally geared and skilled.
You want to do nothing but spam PW:S every gcd?
"raid tool".. i think only applies on fights where you can predict the dmg, and know that your shield will actually absorb anything. So maybe you can throw out free shields on anyone and gain mana.. what good does that do your raid if no damage is being absorbed? You'd be tossing shields purely for regen between landing heals. not exactly what i'd want to be doing as a play style. Otherwise, we're watching 15sec target cooldown on tanks for useful shields
i don't know about you, but i really hope Rapture is changed or diverted back to some of its former glory.
New Disc changes on MMO-Champion:
* Grace doesn't reduce damage dealt to the target anymore but now increases the healing received from the Priest by 3% (Up from 2%)
* Renewed Hope now also give you a 100% chance to reduce all damage taken by 3% for 20 sec to all friendly party and raid targets when you Power Word: Sheild a friendly target.
If I'm reading that right, it's a passive -3% damage to the entire raid any time a Disc Priest cast PW:S? Wow, that's pretty solid.
My buff mods won't read them right and their timers aren't displaying quite right (like the buff for Renewed doesn't even have a description). They fixed the PWS thing, just tested it in an instance. Also cast on me and a target and had us both click it off, only got mana for the one. GRRRR its worthless again.
My personal math on the rapture changes has verged on disturbing.
Assuming that we hit 25k mana in the next tier (hardly tough), and the 30% and 10% reductions stack multiplicatively instead of additively, and you have a 428 mana spell returning 625 mana. If this happens once every 12 seconds, this is just 260 MP5.
If this happens without a 12 second cooldown, this gets a little wierder. The cost difference is 197, which in and of itself would be 660 MP5 from spamming shield if it cast every 1.5 seconds.
Each cast will proc Borrowed Time, and we have 6% base spell haste, and another 3% from raid buffs. Hitting 1 second is pretty trivial. That moves this up to damn near 1000 MP5 from shield spam.
Needless to say, the lack of a 12 second cooldown HAS to be a bug. Above and beyond everything else, this literally turns the Disc priest into a non-stop shield spammer to energize/bubble the entire raid for constant, insane mana returns, near-100% uptime on borrowed time (especially if penance still doesn't consume it) and literally incalcuable, inconsistent, and utterly random benefit. If energize and shields aren't necessary, Disc's functionality would become random and semi-meh. If energize and shields are useful, disc becomes irreplacable and utterly overpowered, powering through any AOE or predictable damage effect with constant mana-returning shields.
The lack of a 12 sec CD on Rapture was a bug and is fixed in the PTR build released tonight. Now the mana return to the priest can't happen more than once every 12 seconds. Your math is a little off though, PWS with 5/5 Mental Agility and Soul Warding costs 533 mana. With 25k mana the return is 625 mana like you said, a net gain of 92 mana, once every 12 seconds means it is worth 38 mp5.
I have already bought a dozen pure intellect gems to regem with when 3.1 hits haha.
--------------------------------------
Edit
I thought I would repeat the exercise I did in this post and see how much mana regen I would lose with the new talents, but this time use WWS data from a naxx/malygos clear because it represents a wider range of fights and therefore healing requirements.
WWS says I gained a total of 263,359 mana from Rapture during the boss fights, lasting a total of 2958 seconds. That works out to be about 445 mp5.
I cast a total of 138 PWS and due to my style of healing those were probably all on the MT so I will assume that they would be at least 15 seconds apart and would therefore all result in 2.5% mana return from the new rapture. I have 24k mana right now, 2.5% of that is 600 mana, so 138 PWS would return 138*600 = 82800 mana. Over the 2958 seconds that works out to about 140 mp5.
Each PWS would also cost 267 mana less with Soul Warding (800 versus 533), for 138 PWS the total savings would be 138*267 = 36846 mana. Over 2958 seconds that works out to 62 mp5.
I cast a total of 620 flash heals at a cost of 625 mana each for a total cost of 387500. With the new Improved Flash Heal talent those would cost only 521 mana each for a total cost of 323020 mana. The new talent would have saved me 64480 mana, over the course of 2958 seconds works out to 109 mp5.
So the loss of the old Rapture would have meant a loss of 445 mp5, and the new talents would have resulted in a gain of 140 mp5, 62 mp5 and 109 mp5, meaning a net loss of 134 mp5. A total loss of 134 mp5 doesn't really sound that crippling to me, especially given that it can be lessened somewhat by regemming for intellect (if I had 28k mana instead of 24k mana I would have gotten an extra ~23 mp5 from the new Rapture) and casting more Flash Heals and PWS (the 140 mp5 from new Rapture in this example is not even close to the ceiling of 250 mp5 for 24k mana). Once the PTR stabilizes it will be nice to actually try out the new talents in raids instead of just theorycraft.
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Edit 2
The more I think about it the less worried I am actually. A loss of 134 mp5 means a loss of about 8k mana over the course of a 5 minute fight. So if you generally end a 5 minute fight with more than 8k mana then you should still be fine. If you generally end an 8 minute fight with more than 13k mana then you should still be fine.
Guess it'll come down to mana savings then, instead of mana regeneration. Should be interesting to see how balanced it is with the reduced mana costs on our FH and PW:S versus the rapture nerf.
I'm really less worried with mana regen than with PW:S spammability. Looks like it now has so many bonuses going for it that it would be counter-productive not to cast it almost whenever you can. Soul Warding removes its cooldown, Rapture removes its mana cost, and BT improves its efficiency and gives a haste bonus.
I see nothing wrong with making PW:S a great spell for Disc Priests, it's practically one of our signature moves along with Penance. The only problem is that all of these changes seem to point toward more spamming of one single ability, and less thinking. Haven't they stated that they wanted healing to become less frantic insted of more?
I'm really less worried with mana regen than with PW:S spammability. Looks like it now has so many bonuses going for it that it would be counter-productive not to cast it almost whenever you can. Soul Warding removes its cooldown, Rapture removes its mana cost, and BT improves its efficiency and gives a haste bonus.
I see nothing wrong with making PW:S a great spell for Disc Priests, it's practically one of our signature moves along with Penance. The only problem is that all of these changes seem to point toward more spamming of one single ability, and less thinking. Haven't they stated that they wanted healing to become less frantic insted of more?
I actually see it the other way. Making it "spammable" makes you be able to take on the fly strategic choices, you see the magic with PW:Shield is that it's tied to borrowed time, and making PW:Shield virtually free you can shield someone whenever you want for a hasted longer cast spell.
An example would be if you were on Kil'Jaeden and had this talent, you'd shield someone on the run into his damage shield, then you'd PoH for the damage -> PW:Shield someone else -> run back and PoH another group hasted. For a more recent fight, you could take Malygos P1 Vortex as a prime example. Before you fall down from the vortex you shield <random low hp target> cast a hasted PoH on a group needing it when you land -> PW:Shield MT followed by a hasted penance and a hasted greater heal (penance doesn't consume BT).
I'm really less worried with mana regen than with PW:S spammability. Looks like it now has so many bonuses going for it that it would be counter-productive not to cast it almost whenever you can. Soul Warding removes its cooldown, Rapture removes its mana cost, and BT improves its efficiency and gives a haste bonus.
Keep in mind that Squeakster's calculations effectively assume that he will cast about the same amount of PW:S after 3.1 as he does now. I think, if anything, the fact that PW:S will be spammable leans more towards the "make a decision about what you will cast" philosophy that blizzard claims they are trying to push us towards. Spamming PW:S will be quite mana inefficient. Afterall, if you cast 8 PW:S in 12 seconds (one every GCD), only one will be free. Similar to what Lambi says, we now have the ability to make a decision to cast PW:S whenever we need to, but I don't think they intend for us to spam it on the raid. If, for example, the change to Renewed Hope sees Live, then we would only have to cast a shield once every 20 seconds to keep the raid buffed. Not that I'm saying that's what we'll do, just that I don't think we're being pushed into spamming PW:S.
Aye, it is only FREE every twelve seconds, otherwise its 533 mana which is a little less then a penance really, especially if you drop the cost by going 18 in holy. Spammable shields will run you out of mana very quickly with the new regen talents and doesn't seem to be what they want at all. So much seems counter intuitive about this patch so far. Let us spam an ability but then remove the beneficial part of it and place it on a 12 seconds timer? Remove hymn but add a glyph, Remove the stamina off of our spirit/haste talent only to give a net 1% less with fortitude (making it so every priest will pretty much take imp fort which makes little sense), making grace one work on one target but increasing the duration removing the damage redux and putting that instead on a talent that was lack luster yes but now grace is going to be pretty uninspiring if you are spreading out your healing at all. The patch just seems to say focus one target while working on the raid at the same time, lot of mixed messages. Anyone else get that? (Still reeling from the rapture nerf as you all are, even with that glimmer of hope we had yesterday until we found the 2.5% was broken and intended on a 12 second cd= ( ).
02/24/09, 11:17 PM
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