Discipline priest raiding compendium - Page 9

Elimbras · 02/23/09, 9:20 AM

Originally Posted by Alv!ra

As an example to illustrate why this can be relevant to find out: With an average Flash Heal of 4500, you get 4500/11460*2.5%*25000= 245.42 mana returned. However, with an average of 4600 flash heals, the rapture return increases to 250.88 mana. Depending on the spell coefficient for flash heal, it should thus be possible to estimate how much more mana return we gain from 10 spellpower or 1% crit.

To find out exactly how much spellpower benefits us in terms of mana regen, we'd need to look at the spell coefficients for disc, which I haven't been able to find and (probably) lack the braincells to figure out myself. (These coefficients themselves may also be a reason to prefer one heal over another for rapture gain as we increase our spellpower, say if gheal coefficient is relatively low compared to fheal, it may be better in terms of rapture returns to prioritize fheal higher than gheal for tank healing)

That's would be fairly easy.
You have the basic rapture formula.
Just plug in the heals formula, be careful for DA and the 2.5% max mana return for rapture, and derivate the formula.

I guess the coefficients are in the old WOTLK big thread.
Basically, for all heals, the raw coefficient for spellpower is 1.88 * (cast_time / 3.5), where cast_time is the unmodified cast time in second.
Then you need to add any talent (+4% to heal, and many other for PW:S). Penance is considered as a 3.0 cast_time spell, I think, but I'm not sure.

Edit : I added the 1.88 factor for heals, which I had forgotten.

TheDoctor · 02/23/09, 11:00 AM

Flash Heal -> 3/7*1.88 = 0.80571...
Greater Heal -> 6/7*1.88 = 1.611428...
Penance -> 6/7*1.88 total and /3 to get per tick = 0.537142...

These are what I have been using. I use 3/7 because it is the same as 1.5/3.5, but is easier to type in spreadsheets and in code without errors. The last I looked into this there was thought that Penance should have been a 4/7 or 2/3.5 and that it was inappropriately calculating for the 2 tick value and applying it to three ticks, it is probably more accurate that it is treated as 3sec which net the same result.

So for looking at spell power to rapture you find that...

Flash Heal
1 spell power = .80571*1.04*1.06*(grace uptime% = 1 for simplicity) * (crit factor = 1 for simplicity) / 11500 * 2.5% = 0.0000019309 * mana pool
Greater Heal
1 spell power = 1.611428*1.04*1.06*(grace uptime% = 1 for simplicity) * (crit factor = 1 for simplicity) / 11500 * 2.5% = 0.0000038618 * mana pool
Penance
1 spell power = .537142*1.04*1.06*(grace uptime% = 1 for simplicity) * (crit factor = 1 for simplicity) / 11500 * 2.5% = (0.0000012873 * mana pool) * 3 ticks = 0.0000038618 * mana pool

Some obvious things here are the mana return contribution of spell power increases the larger the mana pool. I used 0% crit which sets the crit factor to 1 to get the baseline results. You can figure the crit factor using (1.0*(1-crit)+1.5*crit). If you go through the work you find that 1% crit yields 1% increase multiplier against the mana pool, though that should be obvious.

Given a 25k mana pool (what I consider standard raid buffed with Naxx 25 gearing) and treating the cast time as the regen period to get a mp5 value...
Flash Heal
1 spell power = 0.048275 mana per cast * 5 / (1.5/(1 + haste)) -> 0.16092 mp5(0 haste), 0.20115 mp5(25% haste)
Greater Heal
1 spell power = 0.096545 mana per cast * 5 / (2.5/(1 + haste)) -> 0.19309 mp5(0 haste), 0.24136 mp5(25% haste)
Penance
1 spell power = 0.096545 mana per cast * 5 / (2.0/(1 + haste)) -> 0.24136 mp5(0 haste), 0.30170 mp5(25% haste)

Obviously from the data you can see that Penance is the best mp5 from rapture, we already knew that. We also see that 1% haste -> 1% increased mp5 from rapture returns.

Elimbras · 02/23/09, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by TheDoctor

The last I looked into this there was thought that Penance should have been a 4/7 or 2/3.5 and that it was inappropriately calculating for the 2 tick value and applying it to three ticks, it is probably more accurate that it is treated as 3sec which net the same result.

In early beta, Penance was a 3 sec canalization spell.
I remember Devs saying they would switch it to 2s, to buff it, and that it should heal for the same, but with the first tick instant. I guess they didn't change the coefficient at that time.

karlusdavius · 02/23/09, 3:13 PM

Originally Posted by TheDoctor

I think you are trying to stereotype disc healing far to much with the A/B playstyles - and based solely on one of many spells. Healing is more about spell selection and prioritization.

Style A - You seem to look at keeping weakened soul as being the primary benefit of using PW:S, that baffles me really. It is one of many reasons to use PW:S not "the" reason.

Style B - There is no point saving PW:S use on a tank. It would be more appropriate to choose when to apply the shield such as right before items such as Sarth 3d breaths that can significantly exceed the tanks health pool. Though if you use it every breath possible you are doing Style A. Also, using PW:S less reduces your maximum throughput as PW:S is one of our highest hps spells.

I wasn't trying to stereotype with the play styles, it's just what i have come across talking to other people about them. At no point did i say that i use play style A. It baffles you as much as it does me to mindlessly throw a shield on a target each and every time.

Regarding style B. By "saving" a PW:S i meant exactly what you posted, in times (when 2nd and 3rd add's are up together) when high incoming damage on a target is going to happen. In terms of PW:S not being used, which in turn decreases our HPS, im really not concerned with HPS if there is nothing to heal or any use in using it.

(As an aside, you state here that you don't feel crit beyond 30% is that necessary, yet you advocate gemming for crit? If the crit is valuable enough for a gem slot, isn't the 4% worthwhile?)

Yes and no. I believe that 4% extra crit off a debuff is brilliant when you need it. If it's a trash pull, or a boss where the tank really doesn't take all that much damage in a short space of time, then that 4% extra crit turns into overheal. However, if we take Sarth when all 3 add's are down and our lovely tank starts taking a rather consistent beating. In that scenario, 4% extra crit is worth while.

I believe that a good character is a balanced one. 30% crit unbuffed is more than enough in a 25 man raid encounter. I also feel that 10% haste should still be aimed for Simply to get close to the GCD and to make the PW:S+Penance+Flash heal a serious spike recovery rotation. My post about the pure Crit gem was merely an option. If you are currently sitting at 25% crit fully raid buffed, yes i would probably advise you to gem for more crit. At high gear levels however, i will be gemming for whatever i needed in order to reach the caps i have set out. I still feel that the gem is worth a mention, even if you split the gems up into priority.

Healing isn't always about numbers. It's about getting past the content.

Alv!ra · 02/23/09, 6:23 PM

I doubt you can say that any given haste/crit % is "more than enough in a 25 man raid encounter". As you point out yourself, different types of encounters (or rather different amount/types of damage) is what defines our optimal healing "styles", as you put it. It is my opinion that there is a lot to gain by adjusting to the encounter or damage taken, via gearing as well. Take MT healing on Malygos as opposed to sarth3.10. On maly, with high crit %, DA overwriting and crit overhealing is a real issue, and some more haste or spellpower may be preferable to help out more on other targets, and resorting to almost purely reactive healing on the tank.

On sarth3.10 where the incoming dmg on the mt is very predictable, and thus often countered by burst healing around breaths, I'd dare to say you cannot get enough crit. When you're not healing the MT, you're on the OT(s), and every DA you proc is almost sure to be absorbed straight away (during the healing intensive parts of the fight at least).

Setting caps, however soft they may be, is only useful as a general guideline for upgrading gear in my opinion, but you are of course free to do as you best see fit.
I'm currently using 3 different sets, a "mixed" set, a haste set, and a crit set. The difference between my haste and crit set is about 10% +- of both stats, with roughly the same spellpower. I hardly ever use full haste though, as I've come to feel 25% crit chance fully buffed is too low for any encounter at the moment, but for quite a few fights with spread focused damage and low mt dmg, having 4-500 haste rating (about 15%) is quite handy.

By the way, thanks for the help on spellpower -> mp5 calculations TheDoctor and Elimbras. That settled my curiosity on the matter, for now

TheDoctor · 02/23/09, 7:47 PM

Originally Posted by karlusdavius

Yes and no. I believe that 4% extra crit off a debuff is brilliant when you need it. If it's a trash pull, or a boss where the tank really doesn't take all that much damage in a short space of time, then that 4% extra crit turns into overheal. However, if we take Sarth when all 3 add's are down and our lovely tank starts taking a rather consistent beating. In that scenario, 4% extra crit is worth while.

In reading this it seems that you feel that the 4% is great "when you need it". But 4% crit is a 1 in 25 chance... If you are using it on Sarth breaths for example lets say pre-breath you PW:S, after the the breath you always penance->flash or greater heal... On average in that scenario you gain the DA/crit healing only 1 in every ~6 breaths more than without it. Crit at best can be factored as "on-average" because there is no way to predict or cause it to happen when you want.

By not maintaining WS on the tank all the time you are reducing hps and mana efficiency overall. Consider your WS uptime during the fight and multiply that by 4% and that is your net effect. Additionally, you seem to comment that the 4% necessarily leads to overhealing which isn't true. If you look at two simultaneous events occuring in two different realities one where WS isn't present and one where it is and that 4% being the differentiator for the crit occuring. Well in either case if it was going to overheal it will and the worst case scenario is the crit overheals for 50% of the healing more than the non-crit. Though the crit leaves a DA for 30% of the total that the non-crit didn't and will regen mana from rapture. Excluding the cases of DA overwriting for a tank mid fight there is no scenario where the non-crit is functionally better than the crit. In the absolute worst case scenario where both are totally overheal... Well then only the WS case did the heal have any redeeming qualities at all. Thereby excluding cases where additional crit = loss of DA value due to overwrites there is no reason to not have WS up.

Keeping WS up on the tank (which is usually our primary target) is like getting a neck enchant for 4% crit. It is free, it doesn't come from an item budget and there is no point in not having it.

What is the point of "rather consistent beating"? In order to make PW:S valuable on any target all you need is knowledge that said individual will take ~6500 dmg in the next 30 seconds, 15 seconds if you plan to recast, to make it absolutely effective. Trash pulls, bosses, or whatever the tanks at a minimum will fall into the ~6500dmg category. Using it on non-tanks is a considerably tougher to discuss situation but it has value there as well...

If you choose to not use PW:S very often that is your choice. The numbers show it's value and that was my goal.

Originally Posted by karlusdavius

I believe that a good character is a balanced one. 30% crit unbuffed is more than enough in a 25 man raid encounter. I also feel that 10% haste should still be aimed for Simply to get close to the GCD and to make the PW:S+Penance+Flash heal a serious spike recovery rotation. My post about the pure Crit gem was merely an option. If you are currently sitting at 25% crit fully raid buffed, yes i would probably advise you to gem for more crit. At high gear levels however, i will be gemming for whatever i needed in order to reach the caps i have set out. I still feel that the gem is worth a mention, even if you split the gems up into priority.

I have to agree with Alv!ra here that there is no "more than enough" that is blanketly true... Switching gear per encounter etc is quite valuable. Though I don't agree with 30% crit unbuffed for any current situation.

"PW:S+Penance+Flash heal a serious spike recovery rotation" ... PW:S needs to be used prior to a large spike such as a Sarth 3d buffed breath if at all possible, the point would be to limit the spike there and not require significant healing. If used first you cut the breaths damage down by a sizeable portion and then can heal back the remaining damage very quickly, rather than using the PW:S post breath to prevent death and buy time. If you use it the later way you would actually be better off bringing up the tanks health doing Penance->PW:S-> Flash or Greater. As Penance even without BT is going to be better throughput than PW:S.

In other situations or encounters that do not have such unproportionally large hits using PW:S does not lose any value as you seem to believe and comment towards.

Thheory · 02/23/09, 9:18 PM

Originally Posted by TheDoctor

[b]
Greater Heal
1 spell power = 1.611428*1.04*1.06*(grace uptime% = 1 for simplicity) * (crit factor = 1 for simplicity) / 11500 * 2.5% = 0.0000038618 * mana pool
Penance
1 spell power = .537142*1.04*1.06*(grace uptime% = 1 for simplicity) * (crit factor = 1 for simplicity) / 11500 * 2.5% = (0.0000012873 * mana pool) * 3 ticks = 0.0000038618 * triple mana pool
...
Greater Heal
1 spell power = 0.096545 mana per cast * 5 / (2.5/(1 + haste)) -> 0.19309 mp5(0 haste), 0.24136 mp5(25% haste)
Penance
1 spell power = .2896428 mana per cast * 5 / (2.0/(1 + haste)) -> 0.72411 mp5(0 haste), 0.90513 mp5(25% haste)

Nice post, there is a calculation error with regard to Penance however, which I think arises because you multiply by 3 ticks twice. The per cast rapture return on spellpower must logically be identical for Penance and GH, because the amount healed scales with spellpower at the same rate for both (3/3.5*1.88*SP). The MP5 conversion will be 1.25 times better for Penance because of the shorter cast time.

TheDoctor · 02/23/09, 11:18 PM

Nice catch thank you. I updated the previous post so there is no confusion for anyone reading the thread. Must have hastily typed that one out.

Cahrin · 02/24/09, 2:15 AM

3.1 talents are up - MMO Champion has a calculator available.

When your Power Word: Shield is completely absorbed or dispelled you are instantly energized wtih 2.5% of your total mana, and you have a 100% chance to energize your shielded target with 2% total mana, 8 rage, 16 energy, or 32 runic power. This effect cannot occur [more than] once every 12 seconds

I'm feeling like this is absolutely crippling. I know a lot of people feel that Disc runs with infinite mana, but I certainly have issues in 3D-10 and other demanding encounters even when I have very little OH.

Other than that, there are a fair number of interesting changes. Improved Flash Heal and Soul Warding are neat talents, and the new Focused Will adds an interesting choice for those last few talent points. No mention of the group shield though, which is interesting.

fknlo · 02/24/09, 2:20 AM

Originally Posted by Cahrin

3.1 talents are up - MMO Champion has a calculator available.

I'm feeling like this is absolutely crippling. I know a lot of people feel that Disc runs with infinite mana, but I certainly have issues in 3D-10 and other demanding encounters even when I have very little OH.

Other than that, there are a fair number of interesting changes. Improved Flash Heal and Soul Warding are neat talents, and the new Focused Will adds an interesting choice for those last few talent points. No mention of the group shield though, which is interesting.

i don't get to do the hard stuff due to my schedule and being in a casual guild, but i'm not the only one that had seemingly unlimited mana. my regen felt about on par with a holy paladin while everything else felt quite a bit weaker. i think a rapture nerf was expected, but i don't think anyone saw anything like this coming. hopefully blizz will clear up what's actually going on even though i'm fairly certain that multiple shields that get fully absorbed won't return mana.

improved flash heal looks really nice, especially if it stacks with the glyph and should end the "what should i be casting" questions. reflective shield is still showing up on the talent calculator and i can see pw:b taking its place if and when it gets implemented.

Chriso · 02/24/09, 2:25 AM

I am missing Power Word: Barrier, I sure hope they get that into the game. I was rather curious to its mechanics.
With a bit of luck its just been left out of the patch notes by mistake and I will find it on a trainer on the PTR.

Squeakster · 02/24/09, 2:52 AM

Wow, some major changes for us.

They never mentioned Rapture in their earlier posts about changing mana regen so I was surprised to see such a major change to it. This is a major nerf to our mana regen, although I will agree that some nerf was certainly needed. PWS costs 23% base mana

0.23*3863 = 888 mana

Mental Agility and the new Soul Warding talent decrease the mana cost by 10% and 30% respectively, bringing it to 888*0.6 = 533 mana

I run about 24k mana raid buffed right now, and 2.5% of that would be 600 mana. That means each PWS I cast will eventually return to me 600 mana, a 67 mana gain. Which means that Rapture now essentially makes PWS free, which is great, but we get zero mana back from healing done?

During my guilds most recent Sarth3D kill I received a total of 112k mana back according to WWS, 52k of which was from rapture. I cast 24 PWS at a cost of 800 each (ignoring Rapture returns). With the new Rapture those PWS casts would be essentially mana free, for a total of 24*800 = 19200 mana. That means my mana returned via Rapture would have gone from 52000 to 19200, a pretty significant nerf to Rapture. Total mana returned (from all sources) would have gone from 112000 to 79000, a difference of 32800 mana. The fight lasted 563 seconds, so that works out to (32800/563)*5 = 292 mp5 that I will now be missing.

Of course I can't look at the Rapture change in a vacuum and ignore the other changes to our tree. The new Improved Flash Heal talent (-15% mana cost, +10% crit on targets with less than 50% HP) will help with mana. During the Sarth3D kill I just mentioned I cast 137 Flash Heals, which at 625 per equals to 85625 mana spent. With the new talent and the Flash Heal Glyph those will only cost 695*0.75 = 521 mana. At 521 mana per cast, 137 Flash Heals would cost a total of 71377 mana, which is 14248 mana less than without the new talent. Over the 563 seconds the fight lasted that works out to a gain of 127 mp5. Which means we are still down about 165 mp5.

Of course those calculations were based on a fight before the upcoming talent and spell changes, so it doesn't account for any changes in usage of those spells. I mean that the changes made clearly buff PWS and Flash Heal good bit, so when 3.1 hits I will use those more often than I am now which means the above mana calculations will be different (with a better outcome).

On a different note, Divine Aegis finally stacking is a nice change and should help our throughput and the group targetable PoH is really nice but is so expensive maybe not that helpful.

(Edit) I forgot to mention that the removal of the 4 second CD from PWS (talented) is very welcome and should also help increase the usage of PWS which is nice now that it is roughly mana free. I missed the change to Focused Will on my first read through, the extra 3% crit is certainly welcome although it adds more bloat to the bottom of the tree. I am tentatively thinking about going with this build.

(Edit 2) Fixed a math error in my flash heal calculations.

fknlo · 02/24/09, 3:09 AM

cannot happen more than once every 12 seconds.

nobody is sure if this applies to the mana return, the effect on the shielded target or both. you also only get mana back if the shield is fully used. looks like a massive nerf.

TheDoctor · 02/24/09, 3:17 AM

A lot of changes right out the gates... They noted that they will be updating the PTR with more changes. PW:Barrier is hopefully going to be in that set.

Some things are definitely going to change for us though now. Rapture is a huge hit to our mana pool, though it was quite out of control in its current form. There were times were Rapture was 3-4 times the Replenishment returns I was receiving.

I find the wording of the new Rapture a little off. It has two effects first it when fully consumed/dispelled regens 2.5% of our mana and has a 100% chance to energize the shielded target with mana/rage/runic power/energy. This effect cannot occur more than once every 12 seconds. I am figuring the italics is the intention.... What I wonder is if that 12 seconds is per individual. Meaning 2 shields on 2 tanks, is it possible for both to trigger the effect they each get the rage and I only get the mana from one. Or is only the first shield capable and all others are not for 12 seconds.

If my math is right this late at night it would seem that a consumed PW:S is mana free at 22390 mana and at my current 25k raid buffed would regen ~65 mana. At best that means if you got it every 12 seconds it yields ~260.5 mp5. Which isn't bad but it also isn't anything close to the amount of mp5 I have seen from the current rapture.

Grace nerf I feel like is a punishment. It penalizes us for healing anyone other than our primary target. This one should get reverted. BoS is the same damage reduction and doesn't need to be maintained.

More after I have slept.

Debby · 02/24/09, 3:26 AM

Originally Posted by Squeakster

Wow, some major changes for us.

(Edit) I forgot to mention that the removal of the 4 second CD from PWS (talented) is very welcome and should also help increase the usage of PWS which is nice now that it is roughly mana free. I missed the change to Focused Will on my first read through, the extra 3% crit is certainly welcome although it adds more bloat to the bottom of the tree. I am tentatively thinking about going with this build.

If shield barrier is implemented I don't know if there will be a enough points to get Focused Will.