I'm curious as to how important 2/2 Holy Reach and 2/2 Surge of Light will be. It seems that with more PoH in addition to CoH we may get enough procs from 1/2 SoL. I haven't been able to test anything other than FL for bosses so Holy Reach is pure speculation. Does it seem necessary to give it 2 points?
Here are a few examples of having 2/2 Surge of Light. The formula is: Pr(0|C)^n = 1 - (1 - [crit chance]/2)^[number of chances]. If you drop down to 1/2 Surge of Light the formula becomes: Pr(0|C)^n = 1 - (1 - [crit chance]/4)^[number of chances]. These are examples of Surge of Light proc chances per cast with 2/2 SoL using a Circle of Healing (unglyphed and glyphed) or a Prayer of Healing.
Example #1:
Prayer of Healing -or- Circle of Healing (unglyphed)
C = 21%
n = 5
\Pr(0|C,n) = \Pr(0|C)^n = 1 - (1 - 0.21/2)^5.
\Pr(0|C,n) = 1 - (.5742)
\Pr(0|C,n) = 0.426
Or a 42.6% chance to get a SoL proc.
Example #2:
Circle of Healing glyphed
C = 21%
n = 6
\Pr(0|C,n) = \Pr(0|C)^n = 1 - (1 - 0.21/2)^6.
\Pr(0|C,n) = 1 - (.514)
\Pr(0|C,n) = 0.486
Or a 48.6% chance to get a SoL proc.
Now these are the chances you would have if you had 1/2 SoL:
Example #3:
Prayer of Healing -or- Circle of Healing (unglyphed)
C = 21%
n = 5
\Pr(0|C,n) = \Pr(0|C)^n = 1 - (1 - 0.21/4)^5.
\Pr(0|C,n) = 1 - (.76365)
\Pr(0|C,n) = 0.2363
Or a 23.63% chance to get a SoL proc.
Example #4:
Circle of Healing glyphed
C = 21%
n = 6
\Pr(0|C,n) = \Pr(0|C)^n = 1 - (1 - 0.21/4)^6.
\Pr(0|C,n) = 1 - (.72356)
\Pr(0|C,n) = 0.2764
Or a 27.64% chance to get a SoL proc.
It is quite a bit lower chance if you drop to 1/2 SoL, but the choice is ultimately yours.
I didn't see this mentioned, but currently on the PTR, Mind Flay is granting 3 stacks of Shadow Weaving, one per tick. I believe next patch our optimal opening rotation will be Mind Flay -> DP -> VT -> MB -> Pain, assuming you can get the 3 second cast off on pull.
I haven't seen all that much discussion on Blessed Resilience in this topic and I was wondering about it. After playing around with the numbers for a few minutes it seems that one point in blessed resil provides roughly the same benefit as a point in spiritual guidance (which is a talent most holy priests go 5/5 in), and in some cases a decent bit more benefit. Think it could become a worthwhile talent that a lot pick up for PvE?
Body and soul also definitely has me intrigued after playing around with it a bit on the PTR, it seems like it could be quite fun and provide a decent bit of utility for movement fights.
The problem, I think, for both talents, is that they don't give enough bang for your buck, in what is now a more bloated tree.
3% healing for 3 points? That's half of what Spiritual Healing gives. And the anti-crit part of the talent is obviously completely useless in PvE. As for comparing it to Spiritual Guidance, I distinctly remember reading a post which pretty much said that SG is still much better. Unfortunately it was several weeks ago, and I can't remember which thread it was in.
And with BaS, while it might be quite useful on movement fights, the anti-poison part is again useless in PvE, since if I have a poison on me, I have druids, shamans and paladins to get it off me. And I don't think a 4 second sprint is worth 2 talent points. There really aren't many fights currently where it would be useful.
In both cases, I'd rather spend the points in talents which give me a boost to regen, or a better boost to throughput. I'm torn between 4 or 5 talents which I would consider great to have in a healing build, and I think a lot of priests are in the same boat. Frankly, I can't afford to spend the talent points on pretty poor talents.
In both cases, I'd rather spend the points in talents which give me a boost to regen, or a better boost to throughput. I'm torn between 4 or 5 talents which I would consider great to have in a healing build, and I think a lot of priests are in the same boat. Frankly, I can't afford to spend the talent points on pretty poor talents.
Which are the talents you are torn between? If you could show and example that would be super.
In both cases, I'd rather spend the points in talents which give me a boost to regen, or a better boost to throughput. I'm torn between 4 or 5 talents which I would consider great to have in a healing build, and I think a lot of priests are in the same boat. Frankly, I can't afford to spend the talent points on pretty poor talents.
I think it's the opposite for me. I have my basic talent tree, with two points to place somewhere. I'm probably going to throw them in Test of Faith, but it's not of much importance.
Okey, thats embarrasing then. I know I've tested it though and getting Immune spam, but oh well
Atleast our DK got to learn how to tank when he did it in blues.
Last I checked the whelps were not immune, but I do know that they recently hotfixed our ability to go into the portal and divine hymn the eggs to prevent them from hatching, so I'm uncertain as to whether or not they made the whelps immune to it now as well.
Don't know if it's been mentioned before, but shadow word: death no longer triggers PoM. And here I was hoping that they would start letting all self inflicted damage make it bounce, but I guess they went in the opposite direction with it.
Last I checked the whelps were not immune, but I do know that they recently hotfixed our ability to go into the portal and divine hymn the eggs to prevent them from hatching, so I'm uncertain as to whether or not they made the whelps immune to it now as well.
I can confirm that the whelps are not immune to Divine Hymn and Psychic Scream
Originally Posted by Liths
Don't know if it's been mentioned before, but shadow word: death no longer triggers PoM. And here I was hoping that they would start letting all self inflicted damage make it bounce, but I guess they went in the opposite direction with it.
I believe this is more a nerf to 5-mans than raids. While I SW;D often to bounce my PoM in 5-mans, I find myself having less and less opportunity to do it as the raids get progressively more difficult. Throw in a flash heal, or CoH (Then probably a SoL proc) and one other spell, and you can use PoM again.
I do agree though, I would've rather seen them have PoM bounce from self-damage such as Seal/Judgement of the Martyr. It was comforting throwing a PoM on a shadowpriest and knowing their next SW;D wouldn't need to be healed.
I'm curious about another thing. Will our t7.5 4-set finally become useful now that Serendipity causes us to use GHeal a little? Something tells me yes, but I still don't know if it's worth sacrificing stats from better gear to get it.
The problem, I think, for both talents, is that they don't give enough bang for your buck, in what is now a more bloated tree.
3% healing for 3 points? That's half of what Spiritual Healing gives. And the anti-crit part of the talent is obviously completely useless in PvE. As for comparing it to Spiritual Guidance, I distinctly remember reading a post which pretty much said that SG is still much better. Unfortunately it was several weeks ago, and I can't remember which thread it was in.
And with BaS, while it might be quite useful on movement fights, the anti-poison part is again useless in PvE, since if I have a poison on me, I have druids, shamans and paladins to get it off me. And I don't think a 4 second sprint is worth 2 talent points. There really aren't many fights currently where it would be useful.
In both cases, I'd rather spend the points in talents which give me a boost to regen, or a better boost to throughput. I'm torn between 4 or 5 talents which I would consider great to have in a healing build, and I think a lot of priests are in the same boat. Frankly, I can't afford to spend the talent points on pretty poor talents.
A while ago they stated they didn't intend to turn all trees into pvp-capable trees since it ends up with talents being overbudget, or more likely, underbudget if you choose to specialise in one part of the game while the talents are designed to turn you into a pve/pvp jack of all trades. While I am cautiously optimistic when it comes to the Renew, BR and Hymn reworking - the tree still has too much bloat which should be innate to the spell and not tagged on to the talent tree or implemented via glyphs; in some cases making the spell or talents individually lacklustre since they assume other investments (the amount of investment required for a usable recent renew typifies this) which take the fun out of personalising your character.
Indeed I'm a little concerned as to the way Glyphs are being used at the moment, the intention behind them seems to have moved away from "lets give functional spells cool minor benefits to let people personalise their character" into a further sink for min-maxing, often meaning that spell design is constrained via the glyphs currently avaliable because they're just too powerful - in essence, "lets give spells cool glyphs to make them functional". Arguably Glyph of CoH, Fireball and Pestilence fall into the category of "lets give functional spells cool glyphs nobody will ever conceivably not use" since the glyphs have such a significant effect on the efficiency/performance of the spells in question - meaning you might as well balance the encounters around them being present and make the bonuses baseline. With the currently design intention to make mana (and thus efficiency) a much greater factor to consider for healers, I'm not looking forward to everyone using the exact same glyph setup for efficiency (either via mana cost reduction or increase of throughput) because there just arn't enough options when it comes to allowing you to use glyphs to make different playstyles possible without significant re-investments both in talents/glyphs - often an investment which comes at the cost of reducing versatility instead of expanding it, especially true if you choose to focus on the main part of the game, PvE.
Hymn of Hope redesigned: You recite a Holy hymn, restoring hope to those in despair. Restores 3% mana to 3 nearby low mana friendly party or raid targets every 2 seconds for 8 seconds, and temporarily increases their total maximum mana by 20% for 8 seconds. After the effect expires, the mana is lost. Maximum of 12 mana restorations. The Priest must channel to maintain the spell. Cooldown increased to 6 minutes, up from 5.
Right making a few assumptions here (the worst case senario)
1) The spell picks 3 spell targets based on lowest % mana and returns to the 4x3% mana.
2) The spell increases maximum mana by 20% as soon as the channeling starts and the buff ends as soon as channeling ends
3) The hymn channeling time is not affected by haste.
That means that the spell returns12%*1.2 = 14.4% of maximum mana every 6 minutes. Coupled with shadowfiend it can result in shadowfiend returning an additional 8/15*44%*0.2 ~ 4.7% of maximum mana.
If the hymn is performed while Darkmoon:greatness is active it will also return an additional 855 mana.
At 25000 mana and with ideal use of CDs it is possible to squeeze out 19.1%*25000+855 = 5360 mana from a HoH proc. The old HoH would have returned ~2500 mana if you used it in the same way. 5360 mana every 6 minutes is 78mp5. That is not bad at all.
I saw this in the lastest version of the PTR notes posted by Blizzard:
Shadowfiend: Health scaling increased. Now receives 30% of the master's spell power. Mana return increased to 5%, up from 4%. The Shadowfiend now returns mana when its melee attacks land, rather than when it deals damage. No longer has a 75% reduced chance to be hit by melee, ranged and spells. Movement speed normalized to player movement speed. Tooltip revised.
If this isn't a recent change please let me know. It looks more like a PVP directed change to me, but will this have repercussions on PVE survivability as well? I thought they were supposed to be improving its survivability.
About the PoH vs CoH glyph-ing, in my opinion it's 10-men vs 25-men.
I find PoH more useful in 10-men, and less likely to overheal (easier healer coordination). In a raid divided into two groups, they are plenty of opportunities to use it.
But in 25-men, the glyph hot will likely overheal. While a glyphed CoH will be much more optimal: it will almost always find 6 targets in its radius. (I find CoH to complement well with chain heal and other CoH priests, smart-targeting easiness).
The only exception I find would be saph, where PoH glyph rules.
... And I'm still waiting for GH glyph. :/
Even then, I'll probably do like most people and dual spec disc for tank-healing.
I saw this in the lastest version of the PTR notes posted by Blizzard:
Shadowfiend: Health scaling increased. Now receives 30% of the master's spell power. Mana return increased to 5%, up from 4%. The Shadowfiend now returns mana when its melee attacks land, rather than when it deals damage. No longer has a 75% reduced chance to be hit by melee, ranged and spells. Movement speed normalized to player movement speed. Tooltip revised.
If this isn't a recent change please let me know. It looks more like a PVP directed change to me, but will this have repercussions on PVE survivability as well? I thought they were supposed to be improving its survivability.
That's very strange, as they said they had intentions of increasing its survivability. While there will be an obvious health increase (which is well needed, as it's only ~3k right now), this really feels like the survivability of shadowfiend will be decreased overall.
Normalized movement speed will hurt a lot in PVP as well, and it feels like it'll go back to being insta-gibbed by Boss AoE. Hoping this doesn't go live.
I saw this in the lastest version of the PTR notes posted by Blizzard:
Shadowfiend: Health scaling increased. Now receives 30% of the master's spell power. Mana return increased to 5%, up from 4%. The Shadowfiend now returns mana when its melee attacks land, rather than when it deals damage. No longer has a 75% reduced chance to be hit by melee, ranged and spells. Movement speed normalized to player movement speed. Tooltip revised.
If this isn't a recent change please let me know. It looks more like a PVP directed change to me, but will this have repercussions on PVE survivability as well? I thought they were supposed to be improving its survivability.
Shadowcrawl also has a 6 seconds cooldown now, and damage increase was reduced to 15% from 30%. Tested it some and it eats pretty much every hit swung at it now, used to almost never get hit. Shadowcrawl change was expected, but I really don't see what would be so overpowered with making it unkillable.
Shadowcrawl also has a 6 seconds cooldown now, and damage increase was reduced to 15% from 30%. Tested it some and it eats pretty much every hit swung at it now, used to almost never get hit. Shadowcrawl change was expected, but I really don't see what would be so overpowered with making it unkillable.
I've used my shadowfiend to tank raid bosses. At first it was just to save a wipe on Al'ar, but later it was out of pure amusement.
My shadowfiend tanked Grobbulus for it's full duration.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Right making a few assumptions here (the worst case senario)
1) The spell picks 3 spell targets based on lowest % mana and returns to the 4x3% mana.
2) The spell increases maximum mana by 20% as soon as the channeling starts and the buff ends as soon as channeling ends
3) The hymn channeling time is not affected by haste.
That means that the spell returns12%*1.2 = 14.4% of maximum mana every 6 minutes. Coupled with shadowfiend it can result in shadowfiend returning an additional 8/15*44%*0.2 ~ 4.7% of maximum mana.
If the hymn is performed while Darkmoon:greatness is active it will also return an additional 855 mana.
At 25000 mana and with ideal use of CDs it is possible to squeeze out 19.1%*25000+855 = 5360 mana from a HoH proc. The old HoH would have returned ~2500 mana if you used it in the same way. 5360 mana every 6 minutes is 78mp5. That is not bad at all.
Yeah, but what's to say it'll pick the priest who cast it and not, say, a caster DPS or a hunter? I still heavily dislike this channeling garbage (one add hits you or someone needs healing NOW, and it's a nice waste of a 6 min CD), but my worry is blowing this CD and having it not hit me, or even another healer. Has anyone tested this on the PTR to get a better idea of how it works?
Normalized movement speed will hurt a lot in PVP as well, and it feels like it'll go back to being insta-gibbed by Boss AoE. Hoping this doesn't go live.
The normalized movement speed is actually a buff. It currently runs slower than this, so players can "kite" it by running in a straight line. I am, however, also worried about its increased vulnerability to AoE. It already seems highly vulnerable to it on live, and a little more HP isn't going to compensate.
Yeah, but what's to say it'll pick the priest who cast it and not, say, a caster DPS or a hunter? I still heavily dislike this channeling garbage (one add hits you or someone needs healing NOW, and it's a nice waste of a 6 min CD), but my worry is blowing this CD and having it not hit me, or even another healer. Has anyone tested this on the PTR to get a better idea of how it works?
I don't understand this mindset, although I believe enough people feel this way that it will probably get modified in some way. If you're not the person who needs the mana most, why is it bad for it to go to someone else? I can understand if we didn't have any other method of mana regen (i.e. if Shadowfiend randomly chose who it give its mana back to that would be an issue) but I like the idea of a mana return that prioritizes the people with lowest mana. I'd imagine it will work off the same code as replenishment, which uses percentage of max mana, or at least did the last time I paid much attention to it.
With that said, I find the +20% mechanic a bit unwieldy because it would get its maximum benefit by combining it with other mana return CDs (Evocate, Divine Plea, etc.) but during an encounter it may be difficult to coordinate it's usage. Without combining those CDs the spell isn't really as impressive. If you could pick the target (maybe one target with a shorter CD for example) I would feel better about the mechanic.
I don't understand this mindset, although I believe enough people feel this way that it will probably get modified in some way. If you're not the person who needs the mana most, why is it bad for it to go to someone else? I can understand if we didn't have any other method of mana regen (i.e. if Shadowfiend randomly chose who it give its mana back to that would be an issue) but I like the idea of a mana return that prioritizes the people with lowest mana. I'd imagine it will work off the same code as replenishment, which uses percentage of max mana, or at least did the last time I paid much attention to it.
With that said, I find the +20% mechanic a bit unwieldy because it would get its maximum benefit by combining it with other mana return CDs (Evocate, Divine Plea, etc.) but during an encounter it may be difficult to coordinate it's usage. Without combining those CDs the spell isn't really as impressive. If you could pick the target (maybe one target with a shorter CD for example) I would feel better about the mechanic.
I don't know. It rewards careful, thoughtful play. People seeing it need to pop their pleas for maximum effect. I think this game could use more coordination mechanics (mostly it's 25 people kind of doing their own thing in the same room with eachother) so I find that good, good, good.
I just hope it's slightly more intelligent than Replenish, and works off # missing mana instead of %. The day I pop this and one of my 3 targets is a hunter or a ret pally is going to make me a sad panda.
03/14/09, 5:32 PM
