Shadowfiend is a minor glyph, [Glyph of Shadowfiend]. My second spec is going to be deep holy and I think I will go with CoH, FH and PoH as the three glyphs, although HoH is a possibility.

Right, and the AE avoidance resist is perfectly fine for PvE, since that was the only use of pet resists. In PvP, the situation is a fair bit different - since the pet has no intrinstic resists, it is trivial to single target instant fear it, gouge it, stun it, root it and a myriad of other single target CC abilities that are not AoE.

The 'fix' basically makes it function like a normal pet for PvE, but for PvP where it has such a low uptime, a single CC spell makes it completely useless. In PvE, shadowfiend didn't normally die or fail to hit stuff unless you got unlucky - in PvP now it is much more cumbersome to use since the AoE resist is useless while the spell resist is gold.

Glyph situation seems almost an issue now for Holy.
FH is mandatory, CoH nearly mandatory, while HoH + GS + PoH are situationally great.
A few weeks ago I was expecting most Holys to have a dual spec to disc or at least a split build.
Now Im either going to, as per PTR, carry a bag full of glyphs, or perhaps all but one of our holy priests could be better off dual speccing two holy builds with minor build changes and different glyphs.
EDIT not meant as a QQ I like having options

Am I the only priest on these forums planning to dual spec into Shadow and Disc?

My shadow gear is nearly fully set, and as disc i share many of the same items and don't even gem or enchant differently. It seems to me that the opportunities to require more raid healing vs more tank healing for priests will be low. Pallies only have one heal spec, as do druids and Shamans, so I see the required changes from fight to fight be more about, less healers or more healers rather than different healing roles.

How is this playing out on the PTR?

They will never do that because being able to put those points into shadow as a holy priest, or put those points into holy as a shadow priest, and not get penalized for it would seem 1) a waste of talent points, and 2) can be seen as a slight advantage to any-spec priests, over others.

I was referring to the Dual Spec ability on PTRs now, meaning I would have a raid heal spec (disc) and a dps spec (shadow).

The one thing I'd like to find out is if the shadowfiend generates mana when hitting damage shields now that warriors can gain rage from hitting damage shields. If this is the case, then that plus all the other shadowfiend changes would have made them nearly uncounterable except on Blade's Edge. If their HP is high enough, and they get cat form run speed + shadowstep + mana gain on hitting shields, then CC/killing is a fair counter, and probably still comes out ahead of mana tide or innervate/dispellable divine please (vs. a priest).

If they still don't gain mana from hitting a shielded player, then yeah, I'm worried it'll be a lot weaker in PvP even with increased run speed, more HP, and shadowstep. It's just a matter of "one too many" counters for me.

Not a huge PvPer, but to me, it seems like disabling your primary source of active mana regen using one GCD is a bit much, which is essentially the situation presented by a CC-able fiend.

I'll see if I can dig up the quote, but the short answer is yes, fiend now gives mana on attack, not on damage caused so shielding a player no longer prevents the regen.

EDIT: Silly me, it's in the PTR patch notes:

Except all the healer's big sources of regen can be dispatched in one GCD. Mana Tide can be killed (though I'm not sure if has increased HP like an elemental), Divine Plea will be dispellable again in 3.1 and Innvervate has always been dispellable. The only real annoyance with the fiend is that it follows the people who are most likely to try and kill it, rather than being able to be more easily hidden, and that it isn't a passive effect. It also is in the Mana Tide school of not requiring a Dispel Magic effect.

Fair enough, I was mostly comparing to Divine Plea in my head and not realizing that they were changing it back in 3.1.

This is true, but if the Druid/Paladin cast their buffs when they are out of LOS of the dispeller then for most of the part they're going to get a good chunk if not all of their mana back, and they already have some dispel protection and the ability to add junk buffs. They control when they cast the spell, so they can use it when they have the momentum and can afford to be out of LOS.

Tide is the most comparable, but if you hide it behind a pillar in a pressure situation then it's probably not going to die. This is true for the new Shadowfiend to an extent, but as you mentioned the fiend has to be in melee range of its target to return any mana. Short of the other players being completely cc'd or hoping they have some kind of pet, there's not a lot we can do to stop that Gouge/Hamstring/whatever. It seems too easy to nullify, and since almost every class has something they can use it's not like we can just tell it to attack the guy who can't do anything about it.

That being said, thanks to Shadowcrawl even the better players will struggle to prevent it from attacking for all 15s and its mana return has been buffed. We can also dispel most of the cc. I know that Dispel Magic isn't cheap but it's totally worth casting it a couple of times if it means even one extra Shadowfiend tick.

You holy type folks can go for Spark of Hope. (I imagine that the trees will be clamoring for that too)
Us disc priests and pallies will probably go for Pandora's Plea:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ndorasplea.jpg

I don't see why you wouldn't consider both. But I would wager Spark of Hope as to having good use for Discipline. Discipline's reliance and emphasis on faster spells means the saving in terms of mp5 from the Spark of Hope will be very good.

Not to mention with the mechanics of Rapture/Power Word: Shield the trinket greatly closes the gap towards getting Power Word: Shield to be mana-positive.

Mana tide can be placed intelligently to prevent people from reaching it, or at the very least forcing them to sacrifice offense for a period of time in hopes of killing it. Divine plea and innervate (which, unlike tide and fiend, can only be countered by classes with dispel) can be used at opportune times as well; when the paladin/druid are away drinking, or out of los. There's not always a "right" time to use shadowfiend as there is the other mana-return abilities, or at least using it at the "right" time (such as when an enemy is stunned) is both more situational and will guarantee less total return. Likewise, there's not always a right target to use it on - for instance if I'm against mage/rogue, so I put it on the rogue who will dodge a portion of its attacks and who can easily and quickly turn around to melee it and apply crippling, or the mage who will be able to snare (or root, if he's lucky on procs) it without doing anything at all?

Spark looks very nice indeed, easily BiS holy.

Im not planning on much disc play but can't see pandora's plea as a contender for BiS, Int is great but an RND proccing +SP effect (probably on 45 sec CD) is a bit too RND for me. It doesnt really matter much when we get spirit/int/regen/crit or even haste on an RND but SP is still a timed USE effect ideally for healers. - a DPS caster that benefits from the int would get better headway.

Oh, I completely agree. It's just that on paper, all of the big mana returns can be removed with one GCD, but Shadowfiend is the most difficult to get good use out of against a skilled team. Though, it won't matter if the attacks do damage or not, at least, as long as the person is in melee range during the fiend's swing timer. The main difficulty will be how quickly it dies.

DPS casters may want the Spark of Hope however; specifically Arcane Mages might want it and depending on how it works it might be best of slot for them.

I'm equally if not more worried about it's vulnerability to crowd control.

Because of all the mana regeneration nerfs so far listed for the upcoming patch, I have been trying to come up with a spec maintaining Circle of healing in holy but gaining extra regeneration from the discipline tree.
It is 28/43. NOTE: all values are Raid buffed in the current ptr build.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?prie...3&version=9704

I want to get my priest to still be effective in raid encounters, but am not sure if this spec can keep up with the Hps needed in ulduar? I would appreciate any and all advice from experiences.

The main goal I am aiming for is to get a rounded value of stats, and get my haste high enough to try and diminish the hps loss as much as possible. Currently I am planning to reach ~27% haste and ~27% crit, with a fair amount of mp5 in Naxx/Maly/Sarth gear for when Ulduar is released. I will be using The 90 int version of Darkmoon Card: Greatness, and Darkmoon card: Blue Dragon as trinkets. My Glyphs are for Prayer of healing, Circle of healing, and Hymn of Hope.


Sadly, I am not that mathematically gifted at the moment, and not sure on what other information will be wanted if anyone chooses to look at this... I'll gladly get it and edit it in however. And my apologies, I do not know how to link items on the forum.

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I have a question though about Darkmoon Card: Greatness, It does not improve with gear but its returns are still very helpful. I personally also use the intellect proc for replenishment. However if I was to obtain the Spark of Hope from kologarn in Ulduar (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...parkofhope.jpg), could I possibly replace Greatness with it? Because with a six minute fight, and best case scenario of having the buff proc two times a minute, replenishment up 100% of the time on all 12 durations, and having kings and Mental strength, the value only comes to 2561.63 mana from the 379.5 intellect granted? So if I regem to make up for the 90 int, or at least part of it, the spark of hope will be a massive net gain? Reason why I am not replacing the Blue dragon is because at 1065 mp5 oo5sr even 1 proc in the 6 minutes outweighs this best case amount providing I do not leave the 5sr much.

Anyone have any different views on this?

Keep in mind that HoH and Shadowfiend also gain from your intellect. I don't have any math to support it but I feel the Blue Dragon will finally be completely left behind with the spirit regen changes.

Edit: and Mana Tide, if you're lucky enough to get it.

There's no need to do math at all. The meditation change renders Blue Dragon to only 50% increase for 20 seconds. And unless I am mistaken, the IHC change renders Blue Dragon completely useless for holy.