3.1 PTR - Page 4

Savatage · 02/27/09, 10:06 AM

comment withdrawn,other posts have the correct answer

Snegel · 02/27/09, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Suhné

...
I'm using (n-1) as the exponent as I'm already assuming the first cast is a crit, so we start with 8 seconds of HC and only subsequent casts can refresh its uptime.
...

Well, it's quite a long time since school and college but, when your first cast is a crit, you've full 8 seconds to "renew" hc.
So your exponent should be n, not n-1.

As you already mentioned, making sure to have hc up 100% is impossible without having 100% crit simply because the casts are independet from each other.

What the op wanted to calculate is:

0=(1-m)^n whereas m is your chance to crit and n are the number of casts you "squeeze" inside 8 seconds of time.

So you can calculate f(m)=(1-m)^n and now minimize the function

Hope that's right, feel free to correct me

Suhné · 02/27/09, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Snegel

Well, it's quite a long time since school and college but, when your first cast is a crit, you've full 8 seconds to "renew" hc.
So your exponent should be n, not n-1.

As you already mentioned, making sure to have hc up 100% is impossible without having 100% crit simply because the casts are independet from each other.

What the op wanted to calculate is:

0=(1-m)^n whereas m is your chance to crit and n are the number of casts you "squeeze" inside 8 seconds of time.

So you can calculate f(m)=(1-m)^n and now minimize the function

Hope that's right, feel free to correct me

That would be right if I were using FH, but I did it with renew, which crits and triggers a gcd at the same. So you have 8 seg - 1 gcd to refresh HC.

Anyway, calculations would be almost the same with FH. You would be using n instead of n-1, but at the same time the last spell, that in my calculations is able to land before HC expires because it's instant, would start casting before HC expires, but land afterwards, so you would be able to squeeze one spell less.

About minimizing that function... Well, the minimum is obviously m=1 (crit = 100%), it doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

Mearis · 02/27/09, 10:38 AM

I am really curious to hear what GC's planned fix for viper sting and for psychic horror are.

Snegel · 02/27/09, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Suhné

That would be right if I were using FH, but I did it with renew, which crits and triggers a gcd at the same. So you have 8 seg - 1 gcd to refresh HC.

Anyway, calculations would be almost the same with FH. You would be using n instead of n-1, but at the same time the last spell, that in my calculations is able to land before HC expires because it's instant, would start casting before HC expires, but land afterward, so you would be able to squeeze one spell less.

About minimizing that function... Well, the minimum is obviously m=1 (crit = 100%), it doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

Well, let's say m<1

Although it doesn't matter as the minimum can't be found then^^

Anyhow, let's assume you can squeeze 6 casts in the 8s window.

The times represent the time gone since hc procced.

Using Renew:

Cast1crit-1.33s->Cast2-2.66s->Cast3-4s->Cast4-5.33s->Cast5-6.66s->Cast6-8s->HC faded

So you've got only 5 possibilites to "renew" hc

Using Flash heal:

End of Cast0crit->Cast1-1.33s->Cast2-2.66s->Cast3-4s->Cast4-5.33s->Cast5-6.66s->Cast6-8s->hc faded

6 possibilities to "renew" hc

When using renew your first cast is melting your 8s window by 1.33s gcd.

Suhné · 02/27/09, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Snegel

Using Renew:

Cast1crit-1.33s->Cast2-2.66s->Cast3-4s->Cast4-5.33s->Cast5-6.66s->Cast6-8s->HC faded

So you've got only 5 possibilites to "renew" hc

I'm counting 6 here. Please explain me if I'm interpreting it the wrong way.

e: Now I see were we were our calculations differ. There's also a cast0 renew crit that starts the chain at 0 seg. Do the math

Elimbras · 02/27/09, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by cloudscraper

Assuming chaincasting of GCD-long spells, how much would the crit chance % needed to have 100% HC uptime?

100%.

Basically, with any lower crit rate, you can have an unlucky sequence, and no crits for any arbitrarily long time.

But you can be close to 100% uptime with less crit, of course.

A time t, the probability to have HC up is 1- (1-C)^N(t), where N(t) is the number of "finished cast" in the last 8s.
Spamming flash heals without SoL (or renew, that's basically identical), and having (all buffs included) 20% haste (12% from stuff, 8% from talents).
Your GCD is 1.5 / 1.2 = 1.25 s.
So, N(t) = 6 or 7. Marking 0 as one of your cast time (so, you finish a cast at every k*(1.25)s, and taking t uniformly on the real line, you have
N(t) = 6 with probability 0.75/1.25 = 0.6 (that's the case when t = k*(1.25) + x, with 0 < x <= 0.75
N(t) = 7 with probability 0.5/1.25 = 0.4 ( 0.75 < x < 1.25).

So, your final HC uptime is 0.6 * [1-(1 - C)^6] + 0.4 * [1 - (1-C) ^7] = 1 - [ (1 - C)^6 * (1 - 0.4 * C)]

Here are the final values for different crit rate :
10% crit -> 49 % uptime
15% crit -> 64.5 %
20% crit -> 75.9 %
25% crit -> 84%
30% crit -> 89.6 %
35% crit -> 93.5%

Sinndir · 02/27/09, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Snegel

Is there any special reason why you used greater heal only once?
I mean, Serendipity should have been stacked some times where you could have cast a pretty fast gh. Was there simply no need for it, would it have been a waste of mana?
Just finding it interesting as it seems that the benefit out of serendipity seems pretty low.

To the poster above me:
Is it clear that the initial heal of empowered renew is substracted from the total amount healed?

Empowered renew is not subtracted from the heal. It is a flat out 15% instant heal, followed by 25% strength ticks (assuming you're glyphed which if you go the whole renew route you should take ALL the talents and the glyph). It works like this:

Say a 10,000 health Renew. Instantly heals your target for 1500 health, then ticks for 2500 health every 3 seconds. The first portion (1500 health) can crit, and is supposed to proc holy concentration. If you have read any of my posts over the last few months you would know that I am not a big fan of renew and have often advised newer priests not to take improved renew. I played four attempts (2 were garbage) on Hordir last night with full renew talents + glyph and I love it. That was without the initial heal working properly (it was healing myself, not my target) and without the initial heal crits proc'ing holy concentration.

Snegel: I am going to chalk it up to not really thinking about it. I will be augmenting my power aura's (hopefully) to 'ding' or alert me when I get a three stack of serendipity. Largely I didn't use it because if a target took high damage, usually multiple did (Melee getting hit by falling rubble), or I just casted other things on a single low target. Hopefully I can play around a bit more with it all tonight on the Council.

toth · 02/27/09, 12:16 PM

For my main spec I'm going to go with what I think will be a pretty standard build. I really like Surge of Light, but on the other hand the new Test of Faith looks incredible. That's 12% healing when it is needed most.

I am also considering dropping the point in Inner Focus and putting it in Surge of Light. I think Inner Focus will still be a useful talent. It can be used on a binding heal as Sindaga mentioned to boost the chance of a HC proc or it's a nice mana savings and throughput increase on a Serendipity hasted PoH. Its mana regeneration utility just isn't as good without clearcasting procs and with the nerf to OO5SR mana regen though.

Empowered Renew is also really exciting to me. That combined with the mana regeneration nerfs and what I've read on the Hodir fight make me want to work Mental Agility in to my build. In a raid healing scenario I'd expect a large portion of my healing to come from PoM, CoH, and Renew with FH and Serendipity hasted GH/PoH filling in the gaps. A 10% mana cost reduction on PoM, CoH, and Renew would do much for my longevity on fights if that's the case. Something along these lines maybe.

Sinndir · 02/27/09, 12:35 PM

One important thing to remember is how much mana over the course of a fight surge of light will save us. If you look at Nid's learning attempts on Hordir last night he gained 41 SoL procs in 19 mins and 23 seconds, an average of just over 2 a minute. Each time you SoL proc it saves you ~625 mana, to get the same benefite from Healing Prayers you would need to cast four PoH's a minute (I don't know about you but that is a lot of them and a consumption of ~6k mana a minute).

I believe SoL is going to be needed because of how much mana it is worth and how the nerf to our regen will effect us.

Toth, you could swap some of your points around to get SoL. 2 from healing prayers to SoL and since Holy reach isn't as useful, 1 from there to Desperate Prayer (which is basically a second healthstone).

Lambi · 02/27/09, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Mearis

I am really curious to hear what GC's planned fix for viper sting and for psychic horror are.

• Psychic Horror: Has been redesigned and is now a 1-pt talent. You terrify the target, causing them to tremble in horror for 3 sec. and drop all weapons (disarm effect: including bows) for 10 sec. 1 minute cooldown. Instant cast. The horror effect can be dispelled, but the disarm cannot.

• Viper Sting re-designed: Stings the target, draining 4% of mana over 8 sec (up to a maximum of 8% of the caster's maximum mana), and energizing the Hunter equal to 300% of the amount drained. Only one Sting per Hunter can be active on any one target.

Source: World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> [Updated] 3.1.0 PTR Patch Notes

Shaejin · 02/27/09, 1:40 PM

Strictly looking at holy priest mana regeneration in 3.1, what would be the preferred priority for the following stats?

Int > Spirit > Crit > mp5

Motrin · 02/27/09, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by Lambi

• Psychic Horror: Has been redesigned and is now a 1-pt talent. You terrify the target, causing them to tremble in horror for 3 sec. and drop all weapons (disarm effect: including bows) for 10 sec. 1 minute cooldown. Instant cast. The horror effect can be dispelled, but the disarm cannot.

*Takes PvP gear out of the bank. Smiles*

That is a very very very nice change.

I assume rogues can still kick without a weapon. Can a warrior interrupt?

RootBreaker · 02/27/09, 1:56 PM

Yes, pummel does not require a weapon.

Motrin · 02/27/09, 2:09 PM

Kinda thought so, but wow what an amazing change nonetheless. 10 seconds freedom from special attack/auto attack damage AND the shiv/hamstring/stun/concussive shot is exactly what SPs needed.

I guess my only question is if this shares a CD with psychic scream. I would sure like it not to, but I have a feeling it does.

SaintAlfonzo · 02/27/09, 2:44 PM

I can't find any previous issues mentioned about this.

Has anyone tried just self buffing and popping penance on a random player? On live on an unbuffed warrior my Penance would tick for about 3k with 2080 spell power. On PTR with equivalent talents (57/14/0) and 2080 spell power Penance is only ticking for about 1.5k. All other heals seem to be about the same (4k flash heal). Even stacking grace with flash heal increased the healing properly to about 1.65k per tick.

Has anyone else noticed this?

edit* To Zaq below, this is probably exactly what happened!

Zaq · 02/27/09, 3:06 PM

Are you using Rank 1? I had an issue where my skillbar penance got ninja-changed to rank 1.

samandra · 02/27/09, 3:12 PM

A talent I find interesting yet a bit unclear is Blessed Resilience,
It says it increases the affectedness of your healing spells by x% vs. lets say Spiritual Healing that increases the amount healed by x%.

Sinndir · 02/27/09, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by samandra

A talent I find interesting yet a bit unclear is Blessed Resilience,
It says it increases the affectedness of your healing spells by x% vs. lets say Spiritual Healing that increases the amount healed by x%.

I'll quickly check the difference in renew between the ranks.

Using Renew (since it is always a static amount of healing I am spec'd and glyph'd as such
). For buffs I have inner fire on and have 2342 spellpower. I did not use Test of Faith because it wasn't needed to do the testing. I did three trials at each Blessed Resilience ranking to make sure the numbers were correct.

0/3 Blessed Resilience - 1261 instant, ticks of 2004, 2003, 2004, 2004 - Total: 9276 (should be 1202 instant)
1/3 Blessed Resilience - 1283 instant, ticks of 2023, 2024, 2024, 2024 - Total: 9378 (should be 1214 instant)
2/3 Blessed Resilience - 1306 instant, ticks of 2043, 2044, 2044, 2044 - Total: 9481 (should be 1226 instant)
3/3 Blessed Resilience - 1329 instant, ticks of 2064, 2064, 2063, 2064 - Total: 9584 (should be 1238 instant)

Looks like a straight up 1% increase to me, though the empowered renew (initial instant heal) is doing more than 15%... a bit odd

Snegel · 02/27/09, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Sinndir

...
0/3 Blessed Resilience - 1261 instant, ticks of 2004, 2003, 2004, 2004 - Total: 9276 (should be 1202 instant)
1/3 Blessed Resilience - 1283 instant, ticks of 2023, 2024, 2024, 2024 - Total: 9378 (should be 1214 instant)
2/3 Blessed Resilience - 1306 instant, ticks of 2043, 2044, 2044, 2044 - Total: 9481 (should be 1226 instant)
3/3 Blessed Resilience - 1329 instant, ticks of 2064, 2064, 2063, 2064 - Total: 9584 (should be 1238 instant)

Looks like a straight up 1% increase to me, though the empowered renew (initial instant heal) is doing more than 15%... a bit odd

Well, as mentioned in the tooltip, the initial heal is considered as instant and so it synergizes with "Twin disciplines" out of the disc tree which was specced by you: 1202*1.05=1261 which explaines the amount healed without Blessed Resilience.
What I'm not getting yet, is the amount healed wenn Blessed Resilience is specced.
It seems that the initial heal of renew is completey independet from renew, except that it's "base" heal is 15% of the amount healed by renew.
Let's take your numbers with 1/3 BR.
You're right that the initial should heal 1214. 1214*1.05 through twin disciplines should be 1274. The only answer i could find is, that the initial heal also synergizes with BR, 1274*1.01=1287, which is a little bit to high...
The same problem occurs with 2/3 or 3/3 br, the amount healed in your test is a little bit to low.
Any suggestions?

Mode · 02/27/09, 5:08 PM

Over on AJ, priests have discovered that shadowfiend has a new and awesome undocumented ability. >Picture<

oolon · 02/27/09, 5:24 PM

I'll hopefully have some better numbers for you tonight, but empowered renew appears to be fixed and is working correctly on Anasterian.

Without raid buffs (so with about 2350 sp), the initial is around 1250/1900 and the ticks are 2150 or so. This is significant because on Live, my renew ticks are 2150 -raid buffed-. So I'm looking at about 150-200 more a tick and probably 200 more initial. I'll get better numbers soon, I hope, provided the servers are a little better tonight and my guildies can get together to test.

It's gotta be about 3000 more total healing per renew, though, from Live. That throws its efficiency into the realm it used to be in, which is key.

More to come.

jordax10 · 02/27/09, 5:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mode

Over on AJ, priests have discovered that shadowfiend has a new and awesome undocumented ability. >Picture<

Hmmm shadowcrawl? Increases damage done to the targer by 30% for 5 seconds. That is weird blizz did not show that in the patch notes. I wonder how many mobs in raids can be affected by that?

Sinndir · 02/27/09, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by oolon

I'll hopefully have some better numbers for you tonight, but empowered renew appears to be fixed and is working correctly on Anasterian.

Just tested on Broxigar and it is still healing myself and not my target.

rooj · 02/27/09, 5:49 PM

Has anyone posted the new regen coefficient yet?