I mostly agree with what you've said, except the ilvl thing. That's really not true in general, so we shouldn't say it. ilvl 219 gear is not automatically better than ilvl 213. ilvl 226 gear is not automatically better than ilvl 213. It's mostly a slam-dunk: gain 13 ilvls, gain int/spi/spell, and do some trading with crit/haste, but occasionally (actually, fairly often in Ulduar), the gear just isn't that great. This is especially true if you already have a socketed item.
I also have to agree with Tedv here. Constantius makes this statement but gives no examples to back it up. His post following this is only comparing iLevel 226 gear with other iLevel 226 gear........ which is entirely not the point people are making here. The claim is that iLevel 239 gear > iLevel 226 gear > iLevel 219 gear > iLevel 213 gear as long as they don't have hit or mp5. The only possible caveat being tier pieces where you want the bonus. e.g. you might want the 2-pc or 4-pc santification bonus and might wear iLevel 219 gear from Ulduar over iLevel 226 gear, but again that's not the point being discussed here.
Basically Constantius says "ilvl 219 gear is not automatically better than ilvl 213. ilvl 226 gear is not automatically better than ilvl 213" and that's exactly the point being discussed.......... that IT IS. And I too would like to see an example of an item where it isn't.
As for comparing multiple iLevel 226 items etc....... the point is you take the first iLevel 226 item you can upgrade to and after that if all other casters have iLevel as well and the item is being passed on........... shrug then try and figure out what you need more of, crit or haste.......... But most likely you'll be upgrade to iLevel 239 or 226 tier pieces by then anyway so again it's just a moot point.
Before I start making a fool out of myself, and since I can't log into wow at work and check myself, which healing spells have a GCD?
Almost all spells trigger a global cooldown. It's not as relevant for spells with casting times, because the global cooldown happens while you're casting the spell. The only spells I can think of that are off the global cooldown are inner focus and guardian spirit.
I'm experimenting with using a fully talented renew in the times that I would normally use a flash heal. There doesn't seem to be a huge difference. A (again fully talented) renew heals ~80% of what a flash heal does after a single tick, and then you have 12 more seconds of possible healing (raid damage protection if you will). The insta cast function seems quite useful to me as I seem to attract beams and bombs like crazy (so I have to heal on the run a fair amount). If your top 3 heals are CoH, ProM, and Renew, then having to be mobile isn't a problem.
Also, if you are going to drop empowered healing and improved healing, you have the points for it and then some (and I really haven't missed those skills).
The point (I assume) Constantius is making is one of balance. With the exception of set bonuses and other odd effects, a higher iLevel item will always be an upgrade over its lower level counterpart in a vacuum. No one is contesting this point that I can see, and I think the mis-assumption that it is is being made. The repeated cries of "give a scenario where an 213 is better than a 226" seem to testify to this. The counterpoint is this: if the basic assumption is that you do not care about what your individual stats are (since you value them all equally), only their total, and thus the iLevel, then you should be content with absurd (and technically impossible, but the logic follows) situations such as having no hate, crit, int, or spellpower, but merely an plethora of Spi. Obviously this would never be effective, but by the iLevel logic it would be "best". The example of reaching soft crit and haste caps has already been given, and I think that well illustrates where a loss of overall iLevel will nevertheless result in an demonstrable increase in effectiveness.
This is an issue of optimal loot distribution in the raid and not of actual usefulness. I pass on stuff that's a great upgrade all the time for me simply because other classes have fewer options to choose between. What we're really trying to decide is whether something is even an upgrade for us in the first place. I contend that all 226 gear beats all 213 gear and Constantius said that in some situations, the 213 gear was better. But I'm still waiting for example of a single piece of 213 gear that would be better than a single piece of 226 gear, and the stat situation that would make it the case.
For the record though, I'm not trolling. I really do mean to suggest that 226 gear is an upgrade over 213. There's three possibilities for the logical disconnect:
You understand my point but I don't understand the disproof
I haven't explained my point well
You don't understand my point
It's not #1, because the counter-example to my claim would be a piece of 213 gear that's better than a piece of 226 gear. The example of "two pieces of 226 gear versus a third piece of 226 gear and a piece of 219 gear" isn't a counter-example, especially when we all agree that some pieces of 226 are better than others. If you understood the point, I'd expect to hear an appropriate disproof.
That said, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the problem is just my explanation, not your understanding. Other people have posted trying to explain the reasoning as well, so perhaps the different phrasing will help.
Theres several situations where it could happen. Its probably not going to be common, but its still probable enough to discourage simply making your choices based on Ilvl. Trinkets are the obvious example, or items with mp/5, hit.. but theres other examples too.
One is an item thats favors regen stats over one that favors output stats. Something like [Valorous Handwraps of Faith] vs [Handwraps of Resonance] in a situation where you're not worried about regen. Or some items favor less important stats such as stamina like [Arcanic Tramplers] vs [Treads of the Dragon Council]. Also, if/when epic gems are released or if you're a JC, an item with sockets could be worth more when socketed then a higher Ilvl item without sockets.
These arent perfect examples maybe, but they illustrate the point that making gear choices can come down to more then just Ilvl
The ilvl argument used to have more validity in BC, where you could get items like this:[Charlotte's Ivy] (ilvl 100) and this: [Emberspur Talisman] (ilvl 115)
In today's itemization, we rarely see items like the Talisman, and most items have at least 4 stats on them, so there isn't as much disparity both between tiered items and items in the same tier.
I skimmed the thread and didn't see it (I may have missed it) but how does [Pandora's Plea] stack up as far as a regen trinket? Would it be worth it to take it over anything else?
I skimmed the thread and didn't see it (I may have missed it) but how does [Pandora's Plea] stack up as far as a regen trinket? Would it be worth it to take it over anything else?
If I remember the numbers as I computed them, you can also scale Pandora's Plea by MS and BoK before finding those final numbers. I *think* the list has computations done basically as "one intellect, post-raid-buffs", so you'd convert 108 to ~137 intellect for Disc. That makes it more powerful. It's definitely worth a look, if only to have in your bags for something like Vezax.
I know for Fusion, ours are going to go paladin->paladin->rsham->priests, in order of priority. I'd only wear it for ~ 30% of the fights in Ulduar, whereas the paladins/shamans would wear it every single fight. Obviously if no-one wants it, grab the trinket -- it's a very nice thing to have in your bag. I've been kicking myself for 3 days for sharding my staves at the start of Ulduar: I really wanted something for +int the last two raid nights, but didn't have anything past my currently equipped MH+OH.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
After obtaining a 4th piece to my set (due to other people not wanting it, etc.), I have to ask myself just what Blizzard was thinking with that 4-piece bonus. The proc could be good for disc, but it's too short. The frist second is consumed by the gcd of PW:S, leaving you 4 seconds to cast what, one penance? Three renews?
Have any of you tested out the 4-piece bonus at all for disc? For holy it's just about as worthless, from what I can tell. I'm not sure whether the bonus is even worth using the 4-piece for disc healing. ): If I could be using it more effectively then please, do tell.
After Vezax last night, I can definitely say I'd kill for 250 spellpower to *every shield I cast as I chain PW:S the raid*. That's basically all I do on Freya.hard and Vezax.hard, and I can even see arguments for doing it on Mimiron.hard. Absorption is just an incredibly powerful mechanic for slowing down raid damage and allowing druids and shamans to really shine. I may never wear the 4-piece for Holy, but for Disc, I'll absolutely be rocking it.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
I may never wear the 4-piece for Holy, but for Disc, I'll absolutely be rocking it.
There's a situation where I might wear 4 pieces for holy: in fights where I am using shields to get B&S for myself or others a lot. In that situation, my shield typically won't be in conflict with a (better) disc shield, and I cast it in a situation where I typically need to heal someone so the spell power bonus isn't lost.
Sure, it's still not great for holy, but it's ok for these B&S situations. It's probably not worth it when having two hard mode loot pieces competing with T8 slots, but compared to items of the same ilvl?
Example:
If I use 6 shields in a 3 minute Hodir fight, that's around 6*3.8s=22.8s uptime of the bonus, depending on raid buffed haste. That is roughly similar to a constant 30 spellpower bonus, assuming I am constantly casting something. Everyones mileage will vary, of course.
Originally Posted by Pewsey
Many of our snakes are 3m+ in size. They'll just take the lawnmower off you and beat the shit out of you with it to make you tender, then bite you and eat you.
There's a situation where I might wear 4 pieces for holy: in fights where I am using shields to get B&S for myself or others a lot. In that situation, my shield typically won't be in conflict with a (better) disc shield, and I cast it in a situation where I typically need to heal someone so the spell power bonus isn't lost.
Sure, it's still not great for holy, but it's ok for these B&S situations. It's probably not worth it when having two hard mode loot pieces competing with T8 slots, but compared to items of the same ilvl?
Example:
If I use 6 shields in a 3 minute Hodir fight, that's around 6*3.8s=22.8s uptime of the bonus, depending on raid buffed haste. That is roughly similar to a constant 30 spellpower bonus, assuming I am constantly casting something. Everyones mileage will vary, of course.
With or without B&S, having 4-piece as holy isn't discouraging. If anything, just add it to the rotation you'd use when predicting a high amount of damage inc. PoM* > PW:S* > PoH** > CoH. Within those cast times and GCDs, you should be keeping the 250sp throughout the final two spells.
To be quite honest, I'd probably have the 4-piece proc often without even realizing it as holy. Most likely not a 100% uptime, but it would be up when I needed it; such as predicting a high amount of damage inc.
If anything, just add it to the rotation you'd use when predicting a high amount of damage inc. PoM* > PW:S* > PoH** > CoH. Within those cast times and GCDs, you should be keeping the 250sp throughout the final two spells.
If you have a disc priest throwing shields against this predictable damage, throwing holy shields is not a good idea. Another case of "your mileage will vary", I guess.
Last edited by Hegen : 05/12/09 at 12:20 PM.
Reason: Typo
Originally Posted by Pewsey
Many of our snakes are 3m+ in size. They'll just take the lawnmower off you and beat the shit out of you with it to make you tender, then bite you and eat you.
If you have a disc priest throwing shields against this predictable damage, throwing holy shields is not a good idea. Anyother case of "your mileage will vary", I guess.
I'm the only priest in my raid that goes disc for any encounter, since we bring 2 holy priests to the raid. I see what you're saying when PW:S-ing someone when you have a disc priest in the raid, but sometimes just using PW:S on yourself isn't too much of an issue and will allow the disc priest to spam his on others who need it more.
If you're too skeptical about that, you can communicate it with your disc priest and let him know what you plan to do during situation A and B.
If you have a disc priest throwing shields against this predictable damage, throwing holy shields is not a good idea. Another case of "your mileage will vary", I guess.
See, I think this is flawed logic. There is certainly room for multiple Priests to apply Shields, it's just on assignments. And perhaps certain rules e.g. Holy priests never shield the tanks, or person taking "special" damage (some debuff/focus, etc), those are reserved exclusively for the Disc priests. But in the case of raid-wide AoE damage (for example, Flame Jets [before being nerfed]) the Holy priests can easily apply their weaker shields on other targets in the raid.
It's absolutely worth it to get the Shield off and then use the spellpower boost to power a Prayer of Healing / Circle of Healing.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
See, I think this is flawed logic. There is certainly room for multiple Priests to apply Shields, it's just on assignments. And perhaps certain rules e.g. Holy priests never shield the tanks, or person taking "special" damage (some debuff/focus, etc), those are reserved exclusively for the Disc priests. But in the case of raid-wide AoE damage (for example, Flame Jets [before being nerfed]) the Holy priests can easily apply their weaker shields on other targets in the raid.
It's absolutely worth it to get the Shield off and then use the spellpower boost to power a Prayer of Healing / Circle of Healing.
This is something I definitely want to aim for; I really don't think its too much to ask of our disc priest to let me get a shield in every so often. But you really have to communicate and pay attention to Grid (every Priest tracks weakened soul, I hope). In many situations a holy priest's shield (granted they have Body and Soul) is just infinitely better than a disc priest's shield. Our tanks love B&S. And, as you pointed out, there is ample justification for letting a holy priest have a single weakened soul; realistically speaking is our disc priest going to be able to shield *everyone*? Probably not.
As Nidaba pointed out, there's a situation in almost every fight where Body and Soul can be amazing. The question now is if the utility of the sprint justifies throwing out additional shields (without the intent to sprint) to keep up the t8 four-piece buff during an encounter.
Shielding not for the sake of the shield but just for the spell power seems viable: there are obviously moments where our disc priest won't be spamming shields on everyone. Before a pull, toss a shield up and get a boosted PoM bouncing or Renew going. There are lulls in fights too, obviously, where setting this up may be beneficial.
I didn't think I would like Body and Soul for pve. After testing it for some time, it has grown on me. Also, it seems that I can't drop it from my spec since all our tanks absolutely *love* it. We don't run with a disc priest in our raid yet (we run with three holy priests), a situation I'm trying to rectify. If I am successful in my campaign to get a disc priest in our raid, we'll probably just discuss on when a body and soul would be more useful than a more powerful bubble.
I am a pretty big fan of disc, but I played with a body and soul holy build for a while and power word: sprint always felt like a big waste of mana. The only situations I felt it was efficient were to get people with Nature's Fury on freya or Light Bomb on deconstructor out of the raid faster. All other situations you could execute the fights just as effectively without an artificial speed boost.
Everywhere else I just wished I had a disc shield to cast instead (or a disc priest in the raid did cast one instead). And sure, you can make the argument that it decreases learning time by creating a buffer for mobility-based fights where it's nice but not required, but it never felt like it was a big deal.
i dont see the need for it either. its been hyped so much here, ppl calling it mandatory even. i mean who actually dies of nature's fury or light bombs?
we used it at general on the tank for our 1st kill, same for yogg phase 1. But it never was needed.
IMO ppl take it cause they just really enjoy it (as do the ppl who receive the buff), and that would be fair enough ofc. I just don't see the need for it. the points spend or not filler points.
I think people are missing (part of) the point with Body & Soul. Sure, it removes people from danger that they otherwise might have been able to get out of without a sprint. It helps people do what they should normally be able to do without help. Sure, it's valuable to have, and, as people have asserted, it's not absolutely necessary. But I think people see the "helps people get out of fire" aspect of the talent (what the "hype" seems to be centered around) and base their judgments purely on that.
Consider that while it allows people to avoid dangerous situations faster, it also allows DPS to get back to their targets faster, increasing damage done over the course of a particular fight. A similar effect can be achieved with sprinting tanks to mobs to bring them back to the melee more quickly (a la Yogg-Saron). Even when there is no danger to avoid, a speed increase is a DPS increase in many ways (I'm sure many have seen the theorycrafting behind DPS enchanting their boots with Tuskarr's Vitality). Sprinting our enhancement shaman to Yogg's brain inside the portal (after the tentacles have been killed) won't be drastically raid-altering but it will most certainly result in more damage done. In this sense I think the spell is overlooked.
I'm not saying that this is what merits all the hype. I just think the spell is more useful than just a "get raid member out of the fire" button.
And perhaps certain rules e.g. Holy priests never shield the tanks, or person taking "special" damage (some debuff/focus, etc), those are reserved exclusively for the Disc priests. But in the case of raid-wide AoE damage (for example, Flame Jets [before being nerfed]) the Holy priests can easily apply their weaker shields on other targets in the raid.
I would like to get back to the exact point. We were discussing a very specific issue, which was adding Pw:S "to the rotation you'd use when predicting a high amount of damage". If I understand you correctly, we already share the opinion that in many of these cases a disc shield is the better solution.
Now for an AoE damage situation: in cases where we need to run, like the mentioned Hodir scenario, self shielding to get B&S is a no brainer anyway.
As for Ignis, I think that's a special situation. When flame jets start, you cannot use anything but instants anyway, so shielding someone to get the 4pc bonus, followed by a CoH while landing seems good to me.
As for other AoE damage scenarios: we shall see once more people have experience with 4pc bonus when healing as holy. Do I use the GcD for the shield or for a half of a PoH? I'm undecided so far.
Last edited by Hegen : 05/12/09 at 8:18 PM.
Reason: Typo
Originally Posted by Pewsey
Many of our snakes are 3m+ in size. They'll just take the lawnmower off you and beat the shit out of you with it to make you tender, then bite you and eat you.
New here, but going back to the original post, the reported 'bug' must have been repaired. The sequence of 3FH, 2PoH because the second PoH will be boosted in (serendipity) speed by a 'bug' doesn't happen anymore. After Serendipity is stacked by 3 Flash Heals, only the first Prayer of Healing spell is accelerated.
05/08/09, 2:54 PM
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