WotLK Healing Compendium v3.2: Same Old Thing - Page 10

Eshen · 04/30/09, 4:12 PM

How exactly did your output go up by dropping greater heal talents? I'm just not seeing it. Empowered Renew and 2 points in blessed resil are causing this big a change?

BulgarBG · 04/30/09, 4:47 PM

My current holy spec:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Two main reason that explain why output goes up when dropping GH talents:

1) Your GH never provided significant source of your total healing
2) Picking up ToF (works on all of your spells) and all Renew talents adds more healing then losing a bit from a rarely used spell

If you are GH fan, however that will probably not end up the same for you.

meddle · 04/30/09, 4:52 PM

Here are the new Priest changes in 3.1.2:

* Divine Hymn: Healing and healing scaling reduced by 30%. Buff on affected players changed from 15% to 10%.
* Renewed Hope: Effect can no longer be dispelled.
* Soul Warding: Mana cost reduction is now 15% down from 30%.
* Glyph of Mass Dispel: Now only decreases Mass Dispel cost by 35%.
* Glyph of Penance: Now increases critical strike chance by 5% instead of its old effect.

The most notable looks to be the Penance glyph change, removing the 2 sec cooldown reduction and adding 5% crit chance which seems on paper to be a pretty considerable nerf. Divine Hymn was pretty powerful and probably needed a nerf.

tedv · 04/30/09, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by BulgarBG

My current holy spec:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Two main reason that explain why output goes up when dropping GH talents:

1) Your GH never provided significant source of your total healing
2) Picking up ToF (works on all of your spells) and all Renew talents adds more healing then losing a bit from a rarely used spell

I've been meaning to respec to something similar, although with Blessed Resilience instead of a few other filler talents. My current spec right now has dropped Empowered Healing and I didn't notice a 5% to 7% increase in healing though; it was definitely less. I'd suggest that a large part of increased healing is from taking Test of Faith. So the conclusion is that even if you want to keep the Greater Heal boosting talents, you need to find 3 points for Test of Faith regardless. I don't think it's an optional talent.

Todo · 04/30/09, 7:06 PM

I didn't read through all the pages, so I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, however, I saw that you had 45 spirit has a viable weapon enchant.

I'm not very good at math, but if I did everything right, with kings up and spiritual guidance, that would only equate to roughly 12 SP and around 8 mp/5.

Am I missing something here? To me going with 63 spell power just seems like a no brainer, I'm expecting responses such as "It's a preference choice of stats vs throughput" but to me, it seems like, unless I did the math completely wrong, the stats fall way short when compared to 63 spell power (Or 81 or whatever the staff enchant is)

Thoughts?

Promethia · 04/30/09, 8:05 PM

Originally Posted by Todo

I didn't read through all the pages, so I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, however, I saw that you had 45 spirit has a viable weapon enchant.

I'm not very good at math, but if I did everything right, with kings up and spiritual guidance, that would only equate to roughly 12 SP and around 8 mp/5.

It's more 15 mp/5, maybe a little more, depending on other stats and how often you're ooFSR.

Of course the decision is going to be partly driven by whether you want more throughput or mana, but the way I look at it is that a 63 spell power for 45 spirit tradeoff is better tradeoff than you get with gems, which trade off in a 9 spell power to 8 spirit ratio. So you may be better off getting your spell power from the enchant and getting more of your mana regen from gems.

Svena · 04/30/09, 8:40 PM

* Divine Hymn: Healing and healing scaling reduced by 30%. Buff on affected players changed from 15% to 10%.
This was bound to happen. It has now become a save the day situational spell. The bonus it being a smart heal and the + 10% to healing for 8 seconds. It still provides more hpm than glyphed POH but it's not exciting anymore. With a 10 minute cooldown - if it was a talent - it would have the same fate as lightwell.

* Glyph of Penance: Now increases critical strike chance by 5% instead of its old effect.
This is dissapointing, however
Divine Aegis: Divine Aegis effects will now stack, however the amount absorbed cannot exceed 125*level (of the target). It will also now take into account total healing including overhealing. -10000 at level 80. Still worth having paid 100g for the glyph.

Todo · 04/30/09, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Promethia

It's more 15 mp/5, maybe a little more, depending on other stats and how often you're ooFSR.

Of course the decision is going to be partly driven by whether you want more throughput or mana, but the way I look at it is that a 63 spell power for 45 spirit tradeoff is better tradeoff than you get with gems, which trade off in a 9 spell power to 8 spirit ratio. So you may be better off getting your spell power from the enchant and getting more of your mana regen from gems.

15 mp/5 oofsr? I was reffering to while casting, but my math again could still be wrong.

Regardless, like you said, it seems like you'd be better off gemming 8 int 8 spirit if you're that desperate for regen. The thoroughput to me from the weapon enchant just seems leaps and bounds ahead of the spirit.

I got into a discussion about this with a random priest earlier and I was just curious.

But the Priest I was talking to was Holy, and I am Disc, I understand Spiritual Guidance and everything but it just doesn't seem to work out mathmatically.

Kashir · 04/30/09, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Todo

Regardless, like you said, it seems like you'd be better off gemming 8 int 8 spirit if you're that desperate for regen. The thoroughput to me from the weapon enchant just seems leaps and bounds ahead of the spirit.

But the Priest I was talking to was Holy, and I am Disc, I understand Spiritual Guidance and everything but it just doesn't seem to work out mathmatically.

Well, it's all going to come down to how much you value regen vs throughput, which determines how highly you value Spellpower vs Spirit. Just because the Spellpower enchant has a higher itemisation value than Spirit doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

Most people would go for the Spellpower, but if you really do value regen extremely highly compared to throughput then there's no reason why you shouldn't pick the Spirit enchant, while still gemming for regen. There's nothing in the rulebook that says you must balance your stats equally.

Edit: Of course if you're going to be that crazy for regen, you'd be better still to go for the old BC +30 Intellect enchant!

Sinndir · 05/01/09, 4:25 AM

Originally Posted by Eshen

How exactly did your output go up by dropping greater heal talents? I'm just not seeing it. Empowered Renew and 2 points in blessed resil are causing this big a change?

Eshen if you look at my post (the second one after Nid's main post); I have included the math on why Blessed Resilience and Test of Faith are a better combination than 5/5 Empowered Healing. As a holy priest, there is simply no reason to have empowered healing over those two talent.

Biffins · 05/01/09, 5:44 AM

Originally Posted by tedv

I've been meaning to respec to something similar, although with Blessed Resilience instead of a few other filler talents. My current spec right now has dropped Empowered Healing and I didn't notice a 5% to 7% increase in healing though; it was definitely less. I'd suggest that a large part of increased healing is from taking Test of Faith. So the conclusion is that even if you want to keep the Greater Heal boosting talents, you need to find 3 points for Test of Faith regardless. I don't think it's an optional talent.

Tedv, do you mean this build.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Promethia · 05/01/09, 8:38 AM

Originally Posted by Todo

15 mp/5 oofsr? I was reffering to while casting, but my math again could still be wrong.

It depends on several things, but the regen formula (in Mp5) from the original post is:

$5 \cdot 0.005575 \cdot 0.6 \cdot (Spirit) \sqrt{Intellect}\text{, or}$
$0.016725 \cdot (Spirit) \sqrt{Intellect}$

For holy, you get 5% bonus to spirit and blessing of kings gives you 10% to both spirit and int, so that's:

$0.016725 \cdot (1.1 \cdot 1.05 \cdot Spirit) \sqrt{1.1 \cdot Intellect} =$
$0.016725 \cdot (1.1 \cdot 1.05 \cdot \sqrt{1.1}) \cdot (Spirit) \sqrt{Intellect} ~=$
$0.02026 \cdot (Spirit) \sqrt{Intellect}$

Let's suppose you have 1083 intellect (before kings), just because that seems like a nice number. Your mileage may vary. Then you'd have:

$0.02026 \cdot (Spirit) \sqrt{1083} ~= 0.6667 \cdot (Spirit)$

which is remarkably close to 2/3 * (spirit), so when you plug in 45 spirit, you get ~30 Mp5 oofsr regen. Inside the FSR, you'd have half that, or ~15 Mp5. Your actual mp5 will be a blending between the two. Lower intellect will result in lower mp5 both inside and ooFSR, and higher will mean more. For 900 intellect, it's more like 27 mp5 oofsr, and 14 mp5inside. So 15 mp5 will not be far off even if you live in the five second rule and don't have tons of intellect.

MavSteele · 05/01/09, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Sinndir

Eshen if you look at my post (the second one after Nid's main post); I have included the math on why Blessed Resilience and Test of Faith are a better combination than 5/5 Empowered Healing. As a holy priest, there is simply no reason to have empowered healing over those two talent.

Your original post more specifically notes that your math is based on anecdotal (i.e. personal) evidence that you cast GH infrequently enough to even be part of the consideration of which talents to take. This post is less clear about that and seems like a pretty sweeping generalization to make in a thread aimed at theorycrafting "ideal" specs for Ulduar.

I keep Emp Healing for the exact same reason I keep Inspiration. If the strategy for a fight calls for me to tank heal, I want to be able to do it well. There are a number of phased fights in Ulduar that require intense raid healing for some phases and intense tank healing for others. With the right talents, holy priests excel at these kind of fights. If your strategy never has you tank healing, of course your math is correct. I'd just be careful as to imply that there is no reason to pick up Emp Healing.

tedv · 05/01/09, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Biffins

Tedv, do you mean this build.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

No, this is the build I had in mind: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

A few notes on the difference.

1) Due to the nerfs in Ulduar content, I find that Prayer of Healing is just not cast as often as it was before. This makes Healing Prayers far less efficient than it was before. Some simple math shows that a point in Inner Focus beats a point in Healing Prayers unless you cast 10 Prayer of Healing in three minutes. Even on fights like Ignis, I don't cast 10 prayers the entire fight. Not being able to double dip Serenity also contributes to this.

2) The second point in Surge of Light is really, really good. In fact, it's just as good as the first point. I have this suspicion that people only running 1/2 Surge of Light either A) haven't tried 2/2 or B) aren't using the procs. Has anyone given a compelling argument for sticking with 1/2? The "it has a near 100% proc chance from AoE heals even with 1/2 points" was disproved. (This is because the 25%/50% chance is checked exactly once for any spell with at least 1 crit.)

3) The point in Desperate Prayer versus Holy Reach is debatable. I find I want to cast a lot of heals while moving in Ulduar and there are a number of times where a 10k instant self heal is exactly the right heal for the situation. Gaining 1.5 yards on Circle of Healing doesn't seem that important.

The other thing I've concluded is that Lightwell definitely sucks in Ulduar, on all fights. Too much movement to use it and you can't afford to waste DPS / cast time to find the target and click it. Worst of all, if you happen to be stationary near a Lightwell, that's probably because the rest of the raid is there too, so your odds of being able to click the graphic are very low.

Originally Posted by MavSteele

I keep Emp Healing for the exact same reason I keep Inspiration. If the strategy for a fight calls for me to tank heal, I want to be able to do it well. There are a number of phased fights in Ulduar that require intense raid healing for some phases and intense tank healing for others. With the right talents, holy priests excel at these kind of fights. If your strategy never has you tank healing, of course your math is correct. I'd just be careful as to imply that there is no reason to pick up Emp Healing.

I don't think its fair to use the same justification for Inspiration as Empowered Healing. First, there are no other useful alternatives in the Inspiration section of the tree. In contrast, Empowered Healing competes with genuinely useful talents. Second, Inspiration procs off of Flash Heal and Circle of Healing, two spells that are often cast on the tank even during raid heal situations.

Norie · 05/01/09, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by BulgarBG

My current holy spec:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Two main reason that explain why output goes up when dropping GH talents:

1) Your GH never provided significant source of your total healing
2) Picking up ToF (works on all of your spells) and all Renew talents adds more healing then losing a bit from a rarely used spell

If you are GH fan, however that will probably not end up the same for you.

I respecced to that this week after inspecting our WWS logs and finding that I overheal for approximately 45% on flash heals in any one given fight. I am primarily a raid healer so I decided to try that spec and I have to say I am loving it. TOF gives me strong healing on fights like Hordir/Auriya/Ignis and the B&S has saved me more times then I care to count!

I did notice a slight decrease in my overall healing versus our other holy priest who kep empowered healing, but my overheal on flash heal went to approximately 15%. I am going to try the spec that Tedv posted with the Blessed Resilience talents next week but I will keep desperate prayer.