tedv

I think this is the right approach to take to the problem. Because the total amount of healing to be done is fixed, and all of it must be healed, the chances of having "enough" healing increase as your total healing increases. But if at current gearing levels you have a 98% chance of having enough healing, adding a lot more gear can only give you at most the last 2%.

There's an argument to be made that once you have "enough" healing output, you become relatively more interested in things like how smoothly and quickly you can deliver that healing, even if it means reducing the total healing you can do. I think this is the argument other people are making.

However, I still disagree with the conclusion. That's because you can control your raid's makeup. Once you get to the point where your raid has "too much" healing, you can cut a healer and bring an extra DPS instead. Extra throughput actually turns into extra damage, which in turn means the boss dies faster. That's less of a chance for mistakes that wipe the raid. And because the fight is faster, it means the total healing needed goes down to. We only bring four healers to Yogg Saron, for example, even when we leave watchers behind.

In other words, if you are in a situation where improving your total throughput has diminishing returns, you have too much healing in the raid. Rather than respeccing for smoother healing output and lower throughput, you should just bring more DPS and cut a healer. Is there any fight in the game where this is NOT the optimal strategy? I can't think of one.

 

BulgarBG

Overhealing is strongly correlated with the amount of healers present in a raid, overall dps quality, fight lenght etc. This shouldn't be a ground-breaking discovery for anyone. Too much overhealing is not a problem, I enjoy pressing my buttons, even when everyone is topped off, just because I can.

I often use that time to unload as much healing overtime, shields, prom, hell even CoH the tanks / melee for some inspiration love. Does that result in a lot of overhealing, maybe, but if you aren't hurting on mana, does it really matter?

Fights such as C'thun (lol) and Yogg could be made much easier by increasing the overall dps of the raid. We do Yogg with 5 healers and lately my only goal in this encounter has been to break 1mil dmg done (as holy). Last 3 weeks, I got 580k, 650k and 710k last night! GOGO! Hodir-hard with 4 healers - you can bet your boots on that I would try to keep SW:P & DP on Hodir around each Flash Freeze. I see nothing wrong of doing 5-6-7 re-applications of SP:W during the fight, added benefit of 50-100k dmg can and has been often the case between winning and having to wait for next-weeks reset to kill the boss.

We only limited by our mana-pool-regeneration, there is nothing wrong to maximize your output from it (mana), weather you do it in a form of massive overhealing or dotting the bosses for greater justice.

 

Delanos

I want some insight from people about this question:

Is Crit being undervalued?

The stat weighting sheet has it at .06 and spellpower at .51 (so 8.3 crit rating = 1 spellpower). I can't see that being true due to the following.

1) Holy Concentration Uptime.
2) Surge of Light Procs.
3) The chance of greatly increased throughput.
4) (Marginal) inspiration uptime. (it should always be up anyways?)

I am deciding between skinning and enchanting. I believe the 25 crit (an extra 1%) while not as good as the 38 spellpower, is not significantly below it in quality or at least enough to justify the huge investment required.

Reasons I may be wrong:

1) Crit heals often get wasted/overheal.
2) SoL will proc enough just from CoH and PoH that there is marginal benefit.
3) I am entirely underestimating the benefit of spellpower for CoH and PoH.


Thoughts?

 

Promethia

I don't think we really disagree there. I prefer going with fewer healers when possible since it makes healing more challenging and interesting, although sometimes raid leaders are pretty wary about cutting back their healers.

The only thing I'd say is that this may land us back in a throughput versus mana debate, since with fewer healers you may be limited by healer mana and still have excess throughput. Also, the minimum number of healers you have may be dictated by range or other technical issues (e.g. Four Horsemen) instead of throughput or mana. But yeah, I am all for putting your raid throughput potential to work by running with fewer healers. Effectively that raises that ceiling where you start to get diminishing returns on your throughput, so it's an efficiency issue.

I find it interesting how many people here talk about throwing in DPS. I do it as well, but I find many other healers don't like to do so. Sometimes I get other players strongly objecting to healers doing DPS, thinking it is too risky... Yeah, I love it when DPS make my decisions for me. But I guess it is no big deal since I ignore them anyway. I figure if after 5 years of healing I still don't know when it's safe enough to DPS, then they should kick me anyway and find another healer more compliant to their demands.

I do have to admit my true motivation is that I don't like sitting there feeling useless at any time, so if there's any lull in healing needed, I am searching for ways to be useful. So I may throw in some DPS if I can. It can definitely make a difference, though -- I've seen that many times, especially in 10 man raids, but also in 25 man.

That seems way off to me almost any way you look at it. You would need to ignore all the fringe benefits of crit and selectively overheal on crits far more than other heals for those weights to be correct.

 

ilkori

What stat weighting sheet are you using? That crit value seems incredibly low. Given a healing distribution from one of my raids and ~t7 level gear, I come up with values of about 0.6 crit being equal to 1.4 spell power for throughput, in addition to each point of crit rating being worth about 0.1 mp5 over the duration of the fight due to Holy Concentration mechanics. (I don't have an implemented model Surge of Light, which would provide a nice boost as well.)

"It's kind of fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney

 

Delanos

I was using the Lootrank.com Holy/Disc priest stat weighting (I don't use this personally, but I saw this sheet and thought... wow, crit looks undervalued)

Link to the sheet:
Loot Rank for WotLK - Priest Holy CoH

I think that it may be significantly undervalued by many players and that it would be good to see how you're handling it with your models. The SoL procs are an interesting element to consider.

My math is pretty badly impaired, but I am going to do my best to put out a better valuation for it.

 

The Not So Evil

For one of my baseline fights (pre-nerf 25 man Ignis), as Disc, my ratings are currently:

The low Crit value is because I'm spamming Power Word: Shield.

Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules.
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Glasswizard

Why is haste rated so high then? With raidbuffs and ~5% haste you should easily reach 1 second global cooldown while spamming shields.

 

The Not So Evil

Well, High is a relative term, its bottom 3 stats. Penance can still be hasted a bit more.

Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules.
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Scyara

Refering to these figures in context with my current gear situation there's something that's kinda bothering me.
Maybe you - or anyone else for that matter - can help me with.

Would you favor Crit over Spellpower?
Here's my thing: I currently have around 28%crit unbuffed which ultimately results in your ~35%crit raidbuffed which is fine.
Since my guild is currently playing heavily hitting Hard-Modes like Iron-Council, Thorim and soon maybe Vezax, I'm considering wearing Soul of the Dead (mostly for it's crit value) instead of Je'Tze's Bell in these encounters to try and ensure high stacks of Divine Aegis instead of increasing my overall output by just a bit ^^.

what it comes down to is: with my gear (see armory link if you like) would it be more beneficial to have 95 critrating (which is roughly 2%) or 106Spellpower. Or (that thoght actually crossed my mind ^^) is it almost equal.


In addition to that.
Would you rather favor haste over crit in one item (say Conqueror's Robe of Sanctification vs. Raiments of the Iron Council) when you're at around 8.60% haste (282 rating) unbuffed?
In other words, how much haste is really necessary in Encounters like these over the possibility of critting a borrowed time + Power Infusion enhanced Greater Heal in order to give the tank a little more mitigation when tanking Steelbreaker as last.


I hope I make myself clear, since I'm a bloody german and my english might not be the best.
I'd really like to hear some thoughts on this and hope this hasn't already been adressed in some other post.
Thanks in advance.

Addendum: In my current Armory Profile I'm wearing "spark of hope" in slot1 for higher ~iLvl ;-)

 

The Not So Evil

All this depends on your healing style and priorities and the rest of the healers you bring along. If you are mostly spamming PWS and Penance I'm pretty sure Je'Tze is better than Soul of the Dead. For Vezax Spark of Hope may be better, but again, depends on how you play.

Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules.
Get Your Rawr 2.2.20!

 

Scyara

good point i guess

i think i'll just fiddle around a bit to try and get a good combo.
thanks for the reply!

 

Malazee

Just wanted to quickly mention that some of the gear recommendations and BiS list need to be updated. Just to point out a few, the [Constellus]/[Ironmender] combo is going to be better than the [Staff of Endless Winter] or at least something to arguably consider. Obviously, [Val'anyr, Hammer of Ancient Kings], is going to be a BiS, but that shouldn't really need mentioning.

Also, I don't believe you've taken either the [Embrace of the Leviathan] or the [Charm of Meticulous Timing] into consideration, as I feel they're BiS over the choices you've made, yet not even listed for consideration here. Not so much the belt, but as far as strictly Ulduar gear goes, it's our best option (even over Cord of the White Dawn, IMO).

[Ring of the Faithful Servant] is also probably worth mentioning as far as rings, but we already have so many options there.

 

• constantius

[Embrace of the Leviathan] is strictly inferior to [Leash of Heedless Magic] in my books. I'd trade 14 spi and 4 int for 13 haste and 4 spell any day. The spellpower balances out (from SG), and the haste is more valuable than the spirit. The slight loss in intellect is the only downside to Leash.

As far as [Constellus]+[Ironmender]: they're good, but I'd still prefer [Staff of Endless Winter]. You lose some spellpower (but actually not that much when you factor SG into the picture), but gain intellect, regen, and crit. Ideally, you'd have both, of course, but /shrug. If [Constellus] had a reasonably-sized chunk of crit or haste on it, I'd probably swing the other way.

I'm *wearing* [Constellus] + [Ironmender], so it's not like I believe they're bad; I'd just prefer a stat stick for a weapon if at all possible.

Finally: it's my opinion for a BiS list. It's not supposed to be a complete listing of all gear. If you don't like the list, make your own.

[e] Comparison of gear using regen gems, just for sake of argument:
[Constellus]+ [Ironmender]
Intellect: 55+8+47 = 110
Spirit: 8+45 = 53
Spellpower: 587+5+74+63 = 729 + 15 (SG) = 744
Crit: 29
Haste: 36
Mp5: 19

[Staff of Endless Winter]
Intellect: 128+8+8 = 144
Spirit: 84+8+8 = 100
Spellpower: 587+9+81+29 (SG) = 706
Crit: 104
Mp5: 36+

So really, what you're gaining by going to Constellus+Ironmender is 38 spellpower, vs. ~39 points of crit/haste, some regen, and 34 intellect. In terms of sheer ilvl, you gain more from Staff of Endless Winter; the double sockets lets you do more flex as well.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

Dylwen

Those look like BC stat weightings.

I've been using the stat weightings from here. Can anyone poke holes in his calculations?

Priest Theorycrafting – Summary (Part 6) � BobTurkey’s WoW Blog

 

The Not So Evil

You mean apart from the fact that he bases all his calculations on spamming Flash Heal?

Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules.
Get Your Rawr 2.2.20!

 

Dylwen

I received a PM explaining why it was flawed, too. I need a quick reference for the 10 seconds I have to make a loot decision. I guess I'll make a cheat sheet from Rawr.

 

Sinndir

You can always ask about loot decisions in the questions page.

It is very hard to create a stat weight sheet for us. For example, the gear I was current running before I got a staff upgrade I was around mid-300 haste (a lot lower than what I like to be). So I readily took the [The Lifebinder] and bumped my haste to mid-400's which is where I like it to be.

 

tedv

Here are some off-the-cuff stat weights for holy.

1 Spirit = .85 Spell Power
1 Int = .85 Spell Power
1 Crit = .9 Spell Power
1 Haste = .8 Spell Power
1 Mp5 = 1.2 spell power

Remember, except for mp5, there are no truly bad stats for holy. If you don't want to derive the proper values for your current gear setup, you can just maximize the sum of the 5 stats (ie. everything has weight 1) and get an answer in the right ballpark. What this really means in practice is that you want the piece with the most gem sockets and least stamina.

 

BobTurkey

Na its pretty easy actually because as long as you use sensible numbers the top ten loot in each slot remains the same. Sure you can argue about which of them is best-in-slot, but in many cases there is little difference regardless of your stat weighting.

Trinkets are probably the only exception due to their special abilities.

PS If anyone has a better method for determining stat weights than my FH casting assumption then i'm all ears.

 

Sinndir

No it really isn't that easy because most of the Holy Priest 'weightings' are used in cyclical casting methods which you should usually never follow. If you have raid members who are good at avoiding fire and what not, you may not need regen or haste as much as a guild with slower reacting raid members.

 

Rumbaswed

Hello, thank you for taking the time to create this 3.1 thread. It has been a valuable resource for me. Upfront, English is not my native language. That said, Please give me latitude if my sentence structure seems off.

There is one item I would like more information on. This is directed at both Constantius & Sindaga (however, anyone please feel free to respond). Either through your Holy spec or your respective writings, you've both indicated that you are not advocates of casting Renew. I thought this was a bit curious because I have found numerous areas where it is quite useful in Ulduar. Casting Renew while on the move seems like a good use of a GCD, so as to not waste it if other instant casts are on CD.

Just a few examples:

* During Mimiron's spin-up seems like a wise choice if I am forced to run.
* Having Renew up on tanks just prior to Auriaya's fear also seems like a good use.
* If I am eye-beamed by Kologarn, it helps relieve a little strain for healers covering my assignment.

I understand that as a Hot, Renew will potentially end up being overwritten if other healers cast on the same target. If glyphed, the ticks are even greater, so it front loads more healing before being overwritten. I also understand that it would not fully live up to its HPM, but 1 or 2 ticks plus the initial heal (talented) could be the difference between a successful attempt and a tank dying.

Can you please explain in detail why you feel it is not a wise choice to use Renew talented or glyphed? I am very interested in reading more details about your points of view. Thank you.

 

Pewpewarrows

I really believe it's just a personal preference based on your playstyle. I on the other hand, use a very Renew-centric spec and attitude when it comes to Raid Healing. If you want any specifics in regards to Talent Choices, Glyphs, or Gear, feel free to take a look at my Armory and ask me any questions.

My "priority list/rotation" is as follows:

1. If Surge of Light procs:
a. Heal the raid member with the fewest HP left, provided that target isn't heavily pre-HoTed and there aren't heals already on the way (according to LibHealComm)
-OR-
b. Use a Free Smite on the focus target
2. If PoM comes off cooldown, throw it on a guaranteed-to-be-hit target (one of your tanks is always a safe bet)
3. If CoH comes off cooldown and there are at least 3 targets with at least a 3k health deficit close together, use CoH
4. If you personally have at least a 5k health deficit as does another raid member, Binding Heal them.
5. If at least 3 members within a single group have at least a 5k health deficit, use Prayer of Healing, preferably with Serendipity stacks on you already
6. If a raid member has taken damage, cast Renew on them

Obviously this doesn't cover all situations. Specifically, the use of Lightwell on cooldown, proper timing of an IF + Divine Hymn macro, using Desperate Prayer in emergencies, using Guardian Spirit every minute to help out on tank healing, etc etc.

The philosophy behind it is as follows: fully talented and glyphed Renew is one of the single most powerful healing spells in the Priest's arsenal, producing approximately 10-14k healing over 12 seconds for a little over 600 mana. It is not uncommon utilizing the above rotation to have anywhere between 4 and 8 active Renews ticking away on damaged friendlies at any given moment in time, an amount that sums to ~5k HPS, in so much that those targets stay damaged and the Renews do not run out (in a perfect world).

Given this efficiency and raw thoroughput, the only time you should every be using Flash Heal is when it's for free (i.e. a SoL proc).

I'm certainly not the first to start using Renew heavily come Ulduar and 3.1, and I'm sure others can provide more input.

(EDIT: Offtopic, but what on earth do I have to do to get my guild tag to update under my avatar here?)

God doesn't kill people. People who believe in God kill people.

 

RootBreaker

Of the three situations you mentioned, the only one i'd really use renew on is Auriaya, but I'd always almost always have renew on the tank - not just before fears. The reason is that Auriaya isn't really a healing intense situation. I have plenty of spare time and plenty of mana, so there's no reason not to. On the other two situations, I'd sprint myself with Body and Soul and get ahead of the hazard, maybe throwing a mending or coh as I ran.

It's not that renew is never worth casting, its just that its such a small percentage of my healing that it's not worth improving with talents or glyphs.

I think you're confusing power with efficiency. If you can get all of at talented renew's ticks, it's very efficient. That doesn't make it a strong spell to save lives that are in immediate danger. When someone drops to 15% from a frost nova/frostbolt combo on hard-mode Thorim, you want to get them healed quickly. You need to get them healed quickly, before they get gibbed by a chain lightning.

When someone gets napalm shelled on mimiron, renew will not save them.

There are many situations where flash heal will save a person that renew won't. I'd challenge you to show an example of the converse situation.

That's not to say that there aren't good places to use renew. For example the dot on Yogg Saron phase 1 is a good candidate to counter with renew. It does a reasonable amount of damage over 20 seconds. In fights where you have spare globals, keeping a renew on the tanks is nice, even if you're assigned to raid healing. The thing that these situations have in common is that they're not dangerous. I don't think anyone's ever died because the healers were too slow to save them from Sara's Blessing damage. I prefer to spend my talent points on things that make my life saving heals (like flash heal and prayer of healing) more efficient and powerful than to spend them to make an occasionally cast buffer spell more efficient.

To update your guild tag, go to your profile and change it yourself.

 

tasha

It can happen, XT-002's Tantrum for example, on someone who has the aoe dot.
Learning Vezax also, since your HpM management is crucial there (discipline would be better imho).

Actually, you cannot realize when a spell like renew saves lives. It's only about hypothesis.
If two priests keep their hots running on the tank, it might give time for the tank healers to help during a wide raid burst, and maybe save someone.

Although to be honest, I kinda aggree with you, about strengthening the life-saving talents. I'm playing the devil's advocate, but your opinion is a comeback to the discussion at the top of this page. Renew doesn't save lives but your total healing power counts when you take less healers into the raid.

So we're turning over the same topics again.
Raid composition, healing style, fights...

But there's also something that I'd like to add: we have tools to complete most other healing classes.
I find myself renewing more if there is no druid in the raid. PoM and CoH complete chain heal really well imho. (I healed as a shaman: CH is awesome, but I missed a priest's reactivity). Shields from discipline are absurdly efficient when paired with shamans or druids' healing. (And to be honest, with every non-disc). Etc...
I'm not going to list everything in my mind.
The point is, you can pick your talents depending on wich other healers you will be with most of the time.