What kind of real-world mp5 are people seeing on [Show of Faith]? So far on the one person in our guild that has it, we're seeing only around 45mp5 with its average uptime in the 20-25% range. While the spell power on it is very good, it doesn't seem like much of a regen trinket, which is why I guess you'd pair it with Spark of Hope.
I dont have [Show of Faith], nor do I know anyone that does, but assuming it has a 45 second ICD like everything else it should be worth up to 64.3 mp5. Each proc is worth 193*3 = 579 mana, and (579/45)*5 = 64.3 mp5.
Although averaging a proc every 45 seconds is pretty unlikey, an average of every 60 seconds is probably more accurate. For a proc every 60 seconds it is worth about 48.3 mp5, roughly what you are seeing.
I find myself going OOM too quickly for comfort especially if the fight is taking more then 5-7 minutes. Right now I've been working with a hybrid spec and it's worked rather well for me so far but I keep getting nagged at for it because I didn't take a couple of the tallents here or there.
Inner focus could help. Roughly doing the math in my head if you use inner focus every cooldown to cast a PoH you're gaining ~40 mp5.
Clear of everything but Mimi, Vezax, Yogg, Algalon. 25-man, all hard modes. Observe our fail on Freya. Every fight was done with [Show of Faith] equipped.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
Clear of everything but Mimi, Vezax, Yogg, Algalon. 25-man, all hard modes. Observe our fail on Freya. Every fight was done with [Show of Faith] equipped.
...
So roughly 1 ppm on average, I'd say. Each proc is worth 579 mana, so ~ 48 Mp5.
That proc seems remarkably underwhelming-- it's no better than Soul of the Dead, though clearly the bonus of 140 spell power is superior. Since getting my Spark of Hope, I've swapped out Soul of the Dead for Eye of the Broodmother. It "feels" like an improvement, whatever that means, but I'm still discontent. I feel like there isn't a second trinket out there that priests really want to have. Have I missed anything important?
First off I must appologise if I'm posting this in the wrong thread. But I have had questions about CoH and PoH. I use alot of those while raid healing. With a double cast it can take at least half of our raids from about 40% down to full. But I've still been having problems fully utilizing these abilities. I find myself going OOM too quickly for comfort especially if the fight is taking more then 5-7 minutes. Right now I've been working with a hybrid spec and it's worked rather well for me so far but I keep getting nagged at for it because I didn't take a couple of the tallents here or there. I am dual spec Healing/Shadow and I am on armory on scarlet crusade under the same name I have on here. Unfortunately i've been at a loss as to where I could start with revamping my talent tree. Mostly cause I really like it. If anyone is kind enough to check it out and make some suggestions. Feel free. But until then I'd really like some help with my CoH and PoH problem.
thanks all.
The best way to make your mana last longer is to gear and gem for regen. Gearing isn't always possible but gemming is. Spirit is no longer a viable regen stat, intellect really blows it out of the water in terms of mana returns. And gemming for spellpower/haste/crit isn't smart when you're running out of mana so quickly. I'd suggest changing all of your gems to at least hybrid intellect gems. That would be a good start for getting better longevity.
First off I must appologise if I'm posting this in the wrong thread. But I have had questions about CoH and PoH. I use alot of those while raid healing. With a double cast it can take at least half of our raids from about 40% down to full. But I've still been having problems fully utilizing these abilities. I find myself going OOM too quickly for comfort especially if the fight is taking more then 5-7 minutes. Right now I've been working with a hybrid spec and it's worked rather well for me so far but I keep getting nagged at for it because I didn't take a couple of the tallents here or there. I am dual spec Healing/Shadow and I am on armory on scarlet crusade under the same name I have on here. Unfortunately i've been at a loss as to where I could start with revamping my talent tree. Mostly cause I really like it. If anyone is kind enough to check it out and make some suggestions. Feel free. But until then I'd really like some help with my CoH and PoH problem.
thanks all.
You have four main problems: Your gemming, enchanting, talents and glyphs. If you are running out of mana though, then you need to shift your gearing decisions in two ways: Increasing the amount of mana available (mana regen) and increasing the amount of healing each point of mana buys you (mana efficiency).
Haste does neither of these things, so you should drop it. Under no circumstances should you use any haste gems. As holy you want to match all socket bonuses, so use intellect in your yellow sockets, spell power in red, and spirit in blue. Whether you want to gem "towards red" (ie. pure spell power in red sockets, spell power / int in yellow sockets) or "towards yellow" (spell power / int in red, pure int in yellow) is a question of just how bad your mana problems are. Don't gem towards blue sockets though. You should also socket an [Insightful Earthsiege Diamond] in your helm instead of that Ember Skyflare Diamond.
You need to enchant spell power on your weapon rather than Spirit. 45 Spirit doesn't even come close to 45 spell power in utility, much less 63. Your chest should have +8 stats or +10 stats rather than 8 mp5.
As far as your talents go, there's been a number of stock builds debated in this thread. Almost all of them have merits depending on your raid group and fight of interest. However, every single build spends 1 point on Guardian Spirit. There's no reason not to take this. I assume this is the major thing people have "nagged" you about not having. They are correct-- you absolutely must have this talent. You should also take Test of Faith, as it also increases your healing efficiency. Cut points from Empowered Healing to pay for them.
For Glyphs, you should swap out Power Word: Shield and Renew for Circle of Healing and Guardian Spirit.
I have not seen any opinions on the legendary. I usually run disc but would am wondering if the legendary will be good for Holy as well? Or if I should be going if a different weapon?
I have not seen any opinions on the legendary. I usually run disc but would am wondering if the legendary will be good for Holy as well? Or if I should be going if a different weapon?
Stam - 108 vs. 111
Int - 101 vs. 144
Spirit - 45 vs. 100
Crit - 47 vs. 104
Haste - 82 vs. 0
Spell Power - 724 vs. 677
The legendary is better for the typical throughput stats while the staff has better 'base stats'. Plus the proc just makes the legendary combo better overall.
Sadly, the best setup is to use [Val'anyr, Hammer of Ancient Kings] AND [Constellus], swapping weapons to control the Val'anyr proc with [Ironmender] off-hand. The weapon is pretty horridly designed, but it's still an upgrade for any spec, even if you have to jump through hoops to use it to its fullest potential.
But is it worth it to compete with paladins/shamans to get the legendary?
I have the feeling it's less of an improvement for us priests, than it is for them. Considering our other gearing options.
The best way to make your mana last longer is to gear and gem for regen. Gearing isn't always possible but gemming is. Spirit is no longer a viable regen stat, intellect really blows it out of the water in terms of mana returns. And gemming for spellpower/haste/crit isn't smart when you're running out of mana so quickly. I'd suggest changing all of your gems to at least hybrid intellect gems. That would be a good start for getting better longevity.
Is spirit really that bad for holy priests? I understand that a lot of regen mechanics are based on mana pool (int). But a fair amount still seems based on spirit. And then the spellpower gains from spirit are nice as well.
Seems like a bigger kick in the nuts for Discipline since they won't have Spiritual Healing. The Penance nerf is really mind boggling. But I am wondering if that's an Arena nerf.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
It seems like they're nerfing the aoe healing abilities of druids/priests in order to equalize the healing potential of all the healing classes, as shamans and paladins are both being buffed (shamans by a significant margin, from what I can tell). The PoH nerf doesn't bother me as much as the Penance nerf, however. This seems more of an issue regarding pvp than pve, and I don't think they have considered how much this will change pve for a disc priest.
The PoH nerf is indeed extreme, however. I don't think taking off a massive ~28% chunk of our biggest aoe heal is a very viable change. Perhaps a lesser value would be acceptable to even out the ehps numbers between classes.
Another interesting change:
Mana Regeneration: All items that provide "X mana per five seconds" have had the amount of mana they regenerate increased by approximately 25%.
Very interesting. Does anyone know if this applies to gems, as well? Or just instance/crafted items?
"Replenishment: This buff now grants 1% of the target's maximum mana over 5 seconds instead of 0.25% per second. This applies to all 5 sources of Replenishment (Vampiric Touch, Judgements of the Wise, Hunting Party, Enduring Winter Frostbolts and Soul Leech)."
Is spirit really that bad for holy priests? I understand that a lot of regen mechanics are based on mana pool (int). But a fair amount still seems based on spirit. And then the spellpower gains from spirit are nice as well.
Spirit isn't a bad stat. Its just worse than the other stats that we can choose to gem for. Spirit is far worse than int for regen and far worse than spellpower for throughput. You can put it in blue sockets as a hybrid (with int or spellpower), but the days of stacking spirit in every gem slot are long gone.
Spirit isn't a bad stat. Its just worse than the other stats that we can choose to gem for. Spirit is far worse than int for regen and far worse than spellpower for throughput. You can put it in blue sockets as a hybrid (with int or spellpower), but the days of stacking spirit in every gem slot are long gone.
I'm at work, which means I can't even access WWS reports. :-(
But if the regen mechanic listed on page one is still in effect then spirit gets a MUCH heavier wt in straight (vanilla) regen. Spirit goes in as itself while only the square root of int is included. Then you have replenishment and shadow fiend which favor mana pool (int), and holy concentration which favors spirit. Again, with some of my WWS reports I could generalize about my own mana sources (damn work web filters!).... My gut tells me that int gets a huge bump from replenishment and shadowfiend while spirit only gets a mild bump from holy concentration. But the largest part of your regen is still going to be your basic vanilla regen, no?
So as a holy priest I prefer items that have spirit, and I would put a non-hybird +spirit gem in the blue slots in my gear.
Read the weights at the bottom of my OP. Spirit, in the best-case world, gets ~ 0.4 Mp5 / point. Intellect, in the worst-case world, gets almost 0.8 Mp5 / point. Given that they cost the same amount in ilvl points, it's clearly superior to stack intellect for pure regen.
There's still a place for spirit, as anyone who has ever switched from Discipline to Holy can tell you: my gearing is 300+ spellpower different between the specs, entirely due to Spiritual Guidance.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
The thing that kills me about Prayer of Healing nerf is that it really damages the HPM to the point where you'd probably only want to use it if you know with reasonable certainty that 4 targets are going to receive the full benefit OR the situation dictates that maximum HPS is necessary and that the HPM is irrelevant. And that's assuming 2/2 Healing Prayers.
The HPS loss also make me question how much a gain I'd see over flash spam on 3 targets. Maybe it's really a marginal gain unless it's being applied to 4 targets.
They could either bring the cost down to 38% bringing the HPM back in line OR they could bring down the base cast time to 2.4 giving us back the HPS, but at a much worse HPM. Though I doubt they'd do the latter, it seems pretty clear to me that some further adjustment is needed.
Otherwise I see that talents like Healing Prayers and Divine Providence may be come less appealing while Blessed Resilience and Empowered Healing gain more favor. Perhaps something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft with the last 3 points either going to boosting HPS AoE's, the HPM of your AoE, Renew, or BnS.
In fact, I expected a nerf of POH. It's currently the strongest cd-free healing tool, and that's what makes priest king on any raid-wide aoe fight. But what concerns me the most with the nerf is that it will further increases the advantage of glyphed holy nova, which is group limited and requires specific placement, both mechanisms I dislike. I hate when we have to set up groups in a specific way for healing (like old COH did, like old POH did), and I hate even more when you have to stack and split priests for some fights. HN should never be the best spammable (as far as hps and hpm are considered) raid healing spell.
My guild has five raiding priest, four of which are usually healers. Even if all of us aren't there for every raid, we'll be able to adapt to the needs. But i don't like this mechanisms.
In fact, I expected a nerf of POH. It's currently the strongest cd-free healing tool, and that's what makes priest king on any raid-wide aoe fight. But what concerns me the most with the nerf is that it will further increases the advantage of glyphed holy nova, which is group limited and requires specific placement, both mechanisms I dislike. I hate when we have to set up groups in a specific way for healing (like old COH did, like old POH did), and I hate even more when you have to stack and split priests for some fights. HN should never be the best spammable (as far as hps and hpm are considered) raid healing spell.
My guild has five raiding priest, four of which are usually healers. Even if all of us aren't there for every raid, we'll be able to adapt to the needs. But i don't like this mechanisms.
indeed Holy priests were OP, making shamans obsolete, and a nerf was pretty much obvious to come. Still,i don't think this is a massive tweak to our healing potenital; Our POH potential thoughput was often unnecessary (let-s say mimiron p2 apart) and pretty much overhealed.
Way worse is penance nerf, setting pala as only way to heal tanks or almost once again, as disc's Gheal can't match even by far HL and only way to keep up HPS was penance;
About HN, i like the spell, requiring again a bit of goodsense in raid positioning and groups managing, which was trivialized by "smart spells", asking the healer to think about targets and not only to spam as soon as possible the heal, like we can often do in normal contest, letting healer's personal skill to shine again.
With PoH nerf i'm seriously worried about my holy's glyph pick, as i love GS and POH but HN seems like a mandatory one, not only for thorim/freya HM.
Vezax:I Love the Smell of Saronite in the Morning
2 Disc, and when we first did it, respec'ing to drop all points in Meditation and picking up 3/3 Improved Healing for Penance savings. Now that we're outgearing the encounter, both holy, just using PoH and CoH selectively. 5/5 Spell Warding, of course.
Constantius, I am not sure how you actually achieved this. Last 2 Vezax's I specced disc as my off-spec, I tried very hard to remove these points but ran into situation where I had to put points somewhere to move up further in tree. I would like to know what exactly you chose instead of meditation to move up further, so I went with the cookie cutter but I think should swap out divine fury for renew and spell warding.
(Btw if you look at my profile, I realized today I forgot to enchant my chest. I picked it up just before raid and did gems.)
Hmm, you're right; I forgot that in the end, Meditation just ended up being 3/3 because there was absolutely nothing else to take down at the bottom of the tree.
I honestly forget where we stole the points for getting Holy up to 18. I think it was Focused Will and/or Divine Aegis (since 80% of our healing was PWS anyway).
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
06/18/09, 3:21 AM
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