Sinndir

Kilborne, I don't know about you but usually when I cast a serendipity hasted PoH, it is followed by a non-hasted one as well, if not a third.

Now for pushback. Concentration aura helps, but does not make the problem go away. With two points into healing focus and concentration aura you will not get pushback at all. And if the course of an instance I get pushed back once and someone dies because of it, I would rather have those points in healing focus rather than renew.

 

Kilborne

Obviously if you are getting pushback on a regular basis then the talent is worthwhile. I just don't seem to be getting any noticeable pushback on the vast majority of fights. I'm still working on normal Ulduar in both 10 man and 25 man, no hard modes yet. Since several of the pushback mechanics that I am aware of seem to have been nerfed recently, I'm just wondering about the overall value of healing focus.
My guild runs fairly druid and priest heavy, so I rarely ever cast two PoH's in a row, and my personal overall spell usage favors instant cast spells heavily. This would indicate that healing focus would be less useful to me than the average priest. Even so I would be interested in how much pushback I experience over the course of an instance. I think this information is vital in evaluating the value of those points. Even though those initial tiers in holy are somewhat limited choice wise, there are still some decisions to be made, especially for priests who are fond of renew.

"And if the course of an instance I get pushed back once and someone dies because of it, I would rather have those points in healing focus rather than renew."

I absolutely agree (although for me I would steal the additional healing focus point from spell warding), but that is kind of my point. It is hard to compare 5% of a renew or 2% of spell damage reduction against an unknown amount of pushback. Those things would be difficult to compare even knowing the values, but without that knowledge you are back to "I like" or "I prefer". I think that if I was experiencing 1+ second of pushback per minute my likes and preferences would be different then if I am having 1 second of pushback over the course of a raid night. So I’m interested in any way that the amount of pushback can be objectively measured.

 

Elimbras

One place where I enjoy healing focus is Freya (at least normal for me), when there is all the little adds spawning.
At some point, I've some adds on me.

Thorim is sometimes the same for the little adds in the arena, but there, I use mostly instant casts.

 

l337n00b

I modified my log parser to keep track of how many spell pushbacks I got through an ulduar 10 run (we didn't kill Ignis because we were bored and tired at the end). Since this isn't entered into the log I faked by counting the number of hits that cause pushback that came in between SPELL_CAST_START's and SPELL_HEAL's.

XT-002 HM - 8 (getting punched by pummelers before the tank picked them up after dpsing down the heart)
Kologarn - 1
Hodir HM - 1
Thorim HM - 8
Freya +3 - 20
General Vezax HM - 1 (because our stupid rogue couldn't kick his searing flames when the warrior broke off to tank Animus)
Yogg-Saron +2 - 41 (over multiple attempts, including being beat on by insane friends, so not very informative)
Razorscale - 4

Other bosses - none

Just on a raw count, that gives about 42 seconds of pushback over 2175 seconds of casting for the entire raid, making pushback about a 1.9% reduction in my casting speed. But if we ignore the Yogg-Saron fights because they contain a lot of confusing data (pushback doesn't really matter when it is caused by your only tank for phase 3 beating on you), then it's 21 seconds of pushback over about 1800 seconds of casting, for about a 1.1% reduction in casting speed.

I've always been one to take the talent, maybe out of a loyalty to the past or just feeling like there is nothing else to take, but counting up the number of times I actually get pushed back makes me feel like I might be better off putting those points in Spell Warding. The only fight that Healing Focus seems better for is Freya, but I don't think we've wiped to that in weeks anyway.

An idiot is someone who would rather be treated like an idiot than called an idiot

 

Sinndir

Well you should take the points from divine fury first, then put them into spell warding. Also that is 10-man, where you must not have been running concentration aura. Because 2 points of healing focus, combined with concentration aura (especially improved) should net zero interrupts/pushbacks.

 

Juneko

If holy is not an effective tank healer, what am I supposed to do if my dual spec isn't discipline(it's shadow)? Isn't it a little ridiculous to need both a holy and a discipline spec to heal through ulduar?

 

• constantius

If your guild needs you to go Disc, but your second spec is Shadow, then your second spec should be Disc. If they need you to go Shadow, then you're only ever going to be a raid healer, and they need to balance healer composition around that face.

In <Fusion>, Wreath goes Disc very rarely, while I switch back and forth about 7 times over the course of a Ulduar.25 clear. It all comes down to what options you have. As Holy, you aren't good for much besides raid heals. Just accept that, and work with it.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

Ceralyn

Holy and Disc are separate roles. It is not required to have one priest be both specs to successfully heal in Ulduar. As long as you have a balanced raid composition set up to cover both raid healing and single target healing, you should be able to fill a single healing role. I'm primarily discipline with a secondary shadow spec while most of our other priests are either primarily holy or shadow. We've been short on paladins and other tank healers so there is always a niche for me to fill. If you want to keep your second spec as shadow, you'll have to decide which healing role you want or what role your guild needs you to fill. The three priest talent trees have finally been separated into three distinct roles, so with dual spec you'll have to eliminate one for regular raiding.

 

Àlexander

The next best spec for Priests?

The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm more or less curious as to what others think, or feel about this, as this person has told me many times that this spec was taken from here on EJ and talked about many times over on these forums.

I'm hoping some more intelligent Priests would give their thought on the terrible spec and use of gearing for max Spirit.

 

Vihermaali

A holy priest without a Guardian Spirit is a gimp holy priest. Glyphed Guardian Spirit is a very wonderful spell, a spell that no holy priest should go without. It's a spell that actually saves lives, and with glyph you are able to spam it at whim.

Other points are more a matter of taste, but I would love to hear the justification for not taking inner focus, spellwarding, surge of light or body & soul. I rate these talents very highly and find it strange someone would put 2/3 points (instead of 1/3 or 3/3) in empowered renew and 0 points in SoL.

There are different opinions going around on what talents to take, but Guardian Spirit is almost a must. You can't call yourself holy and not take GS. Not taking GS is...well, if I finished that sentence I would most likely get banned

 

Gosupriest

My Holy spec also does not have SoL in it. I feel that the loss of SoL in my spec is worth it because I pick up Mental Agility in the Disc tree. As for the above mentioned build, I really don't see why it is spec'd the way it is. The 3 points in Blessed Resilience could be better spent on a talent like SoL in that particular build. The extra point could easily be put in for Inner Focus. It's more or less like someone just looked at the point spread, went down the tree then ran out of points for Guardian Spirit.

Regarding Body & Soul, I personally find that talent a waste of talent points. I find that sticking those points into Empowered Renew works better for the way I like to play. For me, Body And Soul really only gives people a reason to slack. The speed boost can be nice to avoid some RNG mess-ups, but in the long run I find Empowered Renew to be a stronger choice.

@ Vih
I'm curious as to why you don't take Empowered Healing at all. The three points you have in Blessed Resilience would be better spent in Empowered Healing, no?

 

Vihermaali

I don't take Empowered Healing at all, because I benefit more from taking Blessed Resilence.

Yesterday on Freya 3-elder kill I did 14,46% of my total healing with Flash Heal (I didn't cast greater heal at all). 387 452 healing done by flash of my total of 2,679,284. Binding heal did 100 609, so combined with Flash it totals up to 488 061, which is 18,2% of my total healing done.

I'm using WWS numbers so those don't include overheals, but the overheal% was roughly the same on all so I'll ignore overhealing. I use Freya as an example, because for me it's hardest fight in Ulduar, healing-power wise (only fight I haven't done or seen is Algalon).

If I switched the 3 points from blessed resilence to empowered healing, I would lose 3% of my total healing and I would gain +12% to Flash/Binding Coefficiencies. -3% total healing would lead to 2 679 284*0,97 = 2 598 905 points total.

Formula for flash healing done would be -->
(2040 + (0,12+1.5/3.5)*2800*1,88)*1.1 = (2040 + 2888)*1,1 = 5420 instead of
(2040 + (1.5/3.5)*2800*1,88)*1.1 = (2040 + 2256)*1,1 = 4725
5420/4725 = 1,14708 = 14,7% increase in healing done by Flash Heal.

Formula for Binding heal is same as flash, but with an additional *1,1 & *2 in the end
(2230 + (0,12+1.5/3.5)*2800*1,88)*1.1*1,1*2 = (2230 + 2888)*1,1*1,1*2 = 12 384 instead of
(2230 + (1.5/3.5)*2800*1,88)*1.1*1,1*2 = (2230 + 2256)*1,1*1,1*2 = 10 852
12 384/10 852 = 1,1411 = 14,1% increase in healing done by Binding Heal

So if Binding Heal is 3,755% of total healing done it would do 2 598 905*0,3755 = 97591 healing done. 97591*1,1411 = 111 360 --> 13 769 increase in healing done by this spell

Flash was 14,46% of total healing done, so 2 598 905*0,1446 = 373 202. 373 202*1,147 = 428 063 --> 54 861 increase in healing done.

2 598 905 + 13 769 + 54 861 = 2 667 505 healing done after losing 3% overall healing and gaining 12% coefficiency to Flash & Binding Heals. That is LESS than my original healing done (hopefully my math didn't go wrong anywhere). So in other words, I'm better off with taking blessed resilence, than empowered healing.

The non-math version: the less you use Flash/Binding/Gheal, the less you benefit from empowered healing. I almost never use greater heal, if I must tank heal I'll use my disc spec. Flash and binding heal are both spells that are not meant to be spammed: spamming them is a bad sign, especially when you are raid healing. There are better tools for healing masses of people. 3% from blessed resilence improves ALL of your healing spells, and since I use other spells than flash/binding a lot when raid healing, it's better to have ALL of your spells improved than only 1-2 spells that you almost never use anyway. Around 70% of my flash heals cast that fight was Surge of Light procs.

 

seidinove

My Ulduar25 raid composition makes it easy for me to stay holy. My Ulduar10 raid is a different story. With a shaman and druid as the other healers, I wind up being strictly the MT healer is some fights, and more frequently in recent times as we do more hard modes. Certain fights (Ignis if we don't skip him, Kologarn) are still tailor-made for holy, but I'm much more useful as disc in certain fights. Not to mention benefits such as a faster Mass Dispel in Hodir hard mode.

 

Lhyssa

Why can't your shaman MT heal? They're pretty good at it if said shaman has a high crit set.

 

Starfire

Empowered Healing isn't a bad talent. It's a very good talent, BUT it depends on the fight. It really depends on your situation. If you are a Priest that does Ulduar-10 often and you're forced to tank-heal or help-tank heal periodically, take Empowered Healing. (For example, when 2-healing Steelbreaker-last or Thorim-hard, I would expect the Holy Priest to throw a proportionaly large amount of tank heals since there isn't much raid damage going on).

As far as Ulduar-25 go, personally the only fight thus far I've found good use of it is on Firefighter-Mimiron. (I use Greater Heal quite often in Phase 1 and Phase 3, but even if I don't, the boost to Flash Heal and Binding Heal is quite useful).

 

seidinove

She does MT heal quite a bit, and is very good at it. But we like to mix things up, and I'll go Disc in situations such as healing the Fusion Punch tank in heroic Iron Council, where my dispel comes in handy, too.

 

Kilborne

"Empowered Healing isn't a bad talent. It's a very good talent, BUT it depends on the fight. It really depends on your situation. If you are a Priest that does Ulduar-10 often and you're forced to tank-heal or help-tank heal periodically, take Empowered Healing. (For example, when 2-healing Steelbreaker-last or Thorim-hard, I would expect the Holy Priest to throw a proportionaly large amount of tank heals since there isn't much raid damage going on)."

Why wouldn't you just dual spec to disc for those fights where you will be primarily or heavily tank healing? Empowered healing isn't a bad talent, but it gets very watered down for most holy priests. It is a marginal increase on spells that see a low level of usage. The other talents that are commonly picked up in place of empowered healing (like blessed resilience) are also marginal increases, but on spells that see heavy usage.
So on fights where empowered healing would be worth it, I find it much more advantageous to hit the dual spec button and go disc.

 

oolon

Haven't posted in quite a bit, but since we're discussing Renew...

I'm going out of my way to state the obvious, but Empowered Renew is worth getting if you use Renew with any frequency at all. I use it a lot, so I gain a huge bonus from it, more so than any other talent (including Blessed Resilience). I've had this holy spec now since two weeks into the Ulduar patch and I've stuck with it for 25-mans. On some fights, Renew + Empowered Renew can be upwards of 40% of my effective healing, for the same reason Druid rejuv spam is effective and high HPS on many fights.

I posted a while back my successes with Renew with a Recount picture to prove it, but no one ever really said anything at the time. Renew is still a great spell if there was any question, but it's most definitely a question of style more than it is effectiveness (though the coverage is what I'm more interested in). Also, CoH + PoM + Renew/ER is good for 5000+ HPS in the first phase and partly into the second of Iron Council hard mode, until you need to start using PoH as the damage ramps up.

I'm still exclusively Discipline in 10-mans.

But anyway, I'd be thrilled to talk to anyone who is having questions/doubts about using HoT-centric healing solutions (I don't use them on every fight).

 

Starfire

Well, I have to wonder, if you accept that PoH is superior when the damage ramps up, why not just use PoH to begin with?

Not to say I hate ER, personally I've found ER to be amazing for Firefighter (mostly because it can be used while running to proc IHC; something SoL can't do).

I think the sentiments of my earlier post were missed. I am not saying you should take EH, I am saying it's a very good talent. And it is. It's a sizable improvement to the three affected spells. It's sort of like distinguishing the difference between "precision" and "accuracy"; the two are not synonyms. Something can be a good/solid talent, but not necessarily a viable talent to pick-up.

Personally, I have no qualms with respeccing to do certain fights.

 

Angelicai

I've read through this whole thread now and I'm trying to figure out what seems to be a discrepancy. I have seen it mentioned multiple times (though I can't find most of them now) that MP5 is a pretty useless item stat for holy priests. However, whenever someone posts stat weightings it seems like MP5 is always at the top. What am I missing? I know there must be a reason for this, can someone please explain it to me? Thanks a bunch.


From BobTurkey's page that he linked:

 

The Not So Evil

You get 2.5 spirit (or any other stat) for each point of MP5.

Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules.
Get Your Rawr 2.2.20!

 

Angelicai

Ok, thanks. Let me make sure I understand exactly what you are saying but I think you are saying what I was guessing the answer was.

Are you saying that it's not that Mp5 is a bad stat it's the amount of Mp5 that blizzard puts on items compared to the amount of other stats they put on items? So if you have two items that are the same item level and they both have 3 stats, 2 of which are the same but on one item you have Mp5 and one you have INT, the INT item is always going to be better because the amount of INT on the item will be that much larger then the amount of Mp5. This is just how blizzard has designed items. If in the next release blizzard adds two items that are identical except one has 40 int and one has 40 Mp5 then the one with 40 Mp5 would be better for a holy priest. Is this all correct?

Thanks.

 

RootBreaker

Yes, except that aside from gems, you're generally not going to be comparing int and MP5, you'll be comparing Mp5 vs. haste vs. crit. vs spirit.

 

The Not So Evil

Basically yes.

If you compare 6mp5 on chest, it would equal 6*2.5 = 15 spirit. So itemization wise (the cost of creating an item), 6mp5 is equal to 15 spirit.

Reference: Item level - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (Under StatMods)

Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules.
Get Your Rawr 2.2.20!

 

BobTurkey

Thats right Angelicai.

But as others said you would usually get about 100 Intellect on an item or 40 MP5 because of the way the item budgets work.