The same stack of mana pots that I bought the day before heroic ToC release is still in my bags, untouched. I only use shadowfiend because he does damage. Both of these seem like good reasons.
Renew is better then flash in terms of HpM, but renew doesnt save people who are about to die. I use renew over flash when applicable, but having flash heal for a lot is a good thing. On a side note if I was having mana troubles empowered healing would be the best place to steal points from.
I'd be shocked if 5/5 empowered healing saved anyone either. If your healingstyle isn't mana-intensive then by all means, drop points from Healing Prayers, but atleast pick up BR... I can't possibly believe you're actually healing so much with flash that 20% to one spell is better than 3% to all spells? And if you are, why are you playing a priest? There's better classes if you want spothealing.
I'd be shocked if 5/5 empowered healing saved anyone either. If your healingstyle isn't mana-intensive then by all means, drop points from Healing Prayers, but atleast pick up BR... I can't possibly believe you're actually healing so much with flash that 20% to one spell is better than 3% to all spells? And if you are, why are you playing a priest? There's better classes if you want spothealing.
On a unrelated note, gz on Mad Skill
Empowered Healing is a fine talent for 10 mans when you aren't lucky enough to be paired with a Paladin or something. Or if you don't have enough spellpower for your Flash Heal to beat the Penetrating Cold + Leeching Swarm ticks. (Believe there's a post on the Disc thread with someone pointing out a 3% chance to lose someone with the weaker Disc Flash Heals, granted that was with their geaR).
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Empowered Healing is a fine talent for 10 mans when you aren't lucky enough to be paired with a Paladin or something. Or if you don't have enough spellpower for your Flash Heal to beat the Penetrating Cold + Leeching Swarm ticks. (Believe there's a post on the Disc thread with someone pointing out a 3% chance to lose someone with the weaker Disc Flash Heals, granted that was with their geaR).
I tend to run all 10mans as Disc anyway, the ability to blanket the whole raid with shields tends to be a very strong advantage.
As for Anub'Arak and PC healing, there's no reason what so ever to bring a holy priest as a disc priest will simply do the job better. Depending on raidsetup I either heal one target and assist on 1-2 others(basicly throwing shields to 2-3 multiple targets as a new wave of PC appears, in order to buy classes that take longer to get going the time they need), or as today I healed 2 targets by putting up a shield on both and then simply alternating between them with flash heals. If you're insecure about your healing you can simply spam your targets to full, the little extra healing to Anub isn't going to change anything. You want to maintain at least 10k+ health on your targets anyway as PC internal CD is shorter than the duration of the debuff, meaning you may get new PC targets before the last tick of the old ones.
Your Flash Heal has a 33% chance to cause the target to heal for 33% of the healed amount over 9 sec. (source)
At least it doesn't scale inversely with SoL now. Still no indication if it overwrites or stacks, or how often it ticks. I still think I'll keep 2 piece tier 9 as long as I can, though. PoM is just a better spell than FH.
Flash heal isn't really a bad choice. It needed some more loving, as holy. It's getting pushed over by renew in ToC.
Like they said to the resto druids about reju, they try to make us use each spells we have. Understandable. It kinda feels like a revamp of Flash of Light though.
I'm not convinced it's a superb set bonus for disc. 9 seconds is long and it doesn't scale with DA. Will see after crunching the numbers. But for both T10 and T9, the 4-pieces bonus are underwhelming anyway. Getting two pieces of both sets seems like a good option.
Ok, the reduced cd on penance might get useful. If only it wasn't random... Have to test it personally I guess.
And T9 boni were dumb, in an item design way. But at least it was easier for us to get the good bonus. And will be easy to keep.
Could the first page holy specs be fixed already? The default holy spec suggested is criminally bad skipping Spell Warding, Blessed Resilience and Test of Faith. It even uses Flash Heal glyph for crying out loud...
I realize Constantinus has a fetish for Body and Soul even though it's an extremely situational talent so I guess there's little hope of actually getting a non-situational spec up there as default, but I'll hold to what I suggest a few days after 3.1 came live, that the default spec should be: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
In ToC I don't think you need Healing Prayers at all. The mana saved on PoM is negligible and there are no fights where you'll be spamming PoH. Maybe Anub 10H, but I do that as Disc. Might as well drop that, get the second point in Surge of Light, and then you have the option to get full Body & Soul by dropping a point in Blessed Resilience.
Otherwise, yes, that's a much better build. I've pretty much been ignoring any Priest applicant who doesn't have Spell Warding.
Well, again I'm not going to suggest a spec generally just because the fights we're currently doing aren't challenging what so ever.
There's going to be people who are not doing ToC hard modes reading this for advice as well, infact I'd expect the people looking for advice on spec are probably not that far advanced. Therefor keeping in regen talents is probably a good thing, as well as throughput, whilst steering away from situational talents like body and soul. I realize a lot of people really like SoL, but that's the sacrifice I'd suggest since personally, I don't cast flash heals much.
Could the first page holy specs be fixed already? The default holy spec suggested is criminally bad skipping Spell Warding, Blessed Resilience and Test of Faith. It even uses Flash Heal glyph for crying out loud...
I realize Constantinus has a fetish for Body and Soul even though it's an extremely situational talent so I guess there's little hope of actually getting a non-situational spec up there as default, but I'll hold to what I suggest a few days after 3.1 came live, that the default spec should be: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I can find a use for Body and Soul in every ToC fight. Granted, I know some guilds have really awkward strategies but...
Body and Soul to:
NRB: Expedite Paralytic Toxin people; to help the "Australians"; or hell to get the kobold people to the melee/center faster (well what else are you going to be "healing" in p1 anyways?).
Jaraxxus: Sprint people with Legion Flames out; (plus I like using it to run away from Infernals, faster I get away faster I can get back to healing).
FC: And well if you can't tell the value of the talent in a pvp fight, I don't know what to say.
Twins: To either assist in soaking, or to speed up swapping colors. Again, I realize a lot of this relies on strategy, but we don't use anyone besides Paladins/Tanks popping cd's on color swaps. So being able to swap back faster and get back to healing is very useful.
Anub: Phase 2 kiting, but yeah otherwise this fight is stationary.
Besides, when are you going to be spamming Prayer of Healing? I'll give you Twins, but I hardly think you'd be "Spamming" it. I suppose if you screw up on Jaraxxus and let the Incinerate go off you'd be spamming Prayer of Healing, but that shouldn't happen in the first place. Should take a long hard look at how many Prayer of Healings you are using; also don't forget speed boost from Body and Soul should be a dps gain for dpsers and a potential hps gain for healers (assuming you go back to healing; obviously if it's a lull and you aren't healing anyways, you won't gain hps).
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Besides, when are you going to be spamming Prayer of Healing? I'll give you Twins, but I hardly think you'd be "Spamming" it. I suppose if you screw up on Jaraxxus and let the Incinerate go off you'd be spamming Prayer of Healing, but that shouldn't happen in the first place. Should take a long hard look at how many Prayer of Healings you are using; also don't forget speed boost from Body and Soul should be a dps gain for dpsers and a potential hps gain for healers (assuming you go back to healing; obviously if it's a lull and you aren't healing anyways, you won't gain hps).
If the above posts are true (namely Starfire's), then why are we still speccing into Serendipity?
I feel like I can drop Serendipity now for gratuitous Body and Soul, and that it is where we should be taking these points from first, if from anywhere.
I'm unsure about a couple of things regarding the Holy template, geared for Coliseum fights. I'm assuming we're Holy and doing 100% raid healing, with a balanced mix of other healers.
1- It does seem we're using FH a lot less and GH almost not at all. Since we're raid-healing and the damage is fierce, why not drop Empowered Healing, and take Test of Faith instead ?
2- Same question with Blessed Resilience vs Healing prayers. I'm having a very hard time finding the right circumstances to cast PoH (damn Group constraint), so I'd rather drop Healing Prayers in favour of BR ?
3- We end up doing mostly instant spells. Back of the envelope calculations show Mental Agility to be vastly superior to Holy Concentration in that scenario ? HC scales with gear, but for full ulduar 25 priests I come up with Mental Agility = 100 MP5, HC = 50 MP5 with various assumptions (this is not based on a log analysis -I'd love one-, but theoretical calculations).
4- Lightwell seems a very strong spell. Nobody ever had any luck training their fellow raiders to use it ?
The Holy template I'm thinking of for Coliseum-25-Heroic right now, for Priests mostly fresh out of Ulduar, is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Pure raid healing, SoL and Mental Agility for longevity and more mobility.
The Holy template I'm thinking of for Coliseum-25-Heroic right now, for Priests mostly fresh out of Ulduar, is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Pure raid healing, SoL and Mental Agility for longevity and more mobility.
I like this idea however I ended up taking 3/3 out of bless resil, picking up holy concentration, inspiration, and dropping points in empowered healing. However, I kind of think we're both missing a point in that we aren't druids, and our roles as healers are more so determined by being middle grounded in the sense that we SHOULD be casting greater heal to help tank healers. But that's more so my confusion as a priest entirely, it seems we lose out in a battle of raid healing to druids, and lose out as tank healers to paladins. Granted I hold my own, but isn't the point of healing more so effectiveness? It seems like in some fights we're more so the squishy things that pretend we're doing something.
My sentiments on picking up mental agility are to make up for over-all mp5. Debating on regemming completely to emphasize spellpower, and changing spark of hope to an output trinket. Seeing as how my gear is pretty much exactly 25 ulduar gear, i don't necessarily know if it is wise to drop spark, or just swap to using Flasks of the frost Wyrm, regemming gives me the option of using elixirs of Draenic wisdom and guru's elixirs. Though to be honest, I could be doing a lot of things wrong or maybe i'm not the only priest that feels a bit useless. Someone give me a hand here.
If you're trying to do the job of another class then you're not justifying your place in the raid. Stop trying to be something you aren't, and start thinking about how you can justify being what you are. If you can't figure out a reason, then admit it and let the other classes heal. Raid before self.
From own experience:
Paladins top healing meters -> Too few healers.
Priests top healing meters -> Too many healers.
Druids top healing meters -> Perfect.
Rawr - Coder of HolyPriest (Healer) and ShadowPriest (DPS) Modules. Get Your Rawr 2.3.x!
Body and Soul really is a superfluous raiding talent, but it's not arguably worse than any of the other options-- most alternatives provide mana efficiency instead. As long as people take the important throughput talents (which in my opinion now includes 3/3 Blessed Resilience), I don't think it much matters what else they take.
I don't use Prayer of Healing for Anub'arak 10H for the record. Generally I press one Holy Nova every 15 seconds or so and let healing stream totem handle the other group.
Last time I was specced Holy, I did a brief stint with Lightwell. I primarily used it as a personal bandage machine while soaking on Twin Valkyrs. I placed it halfway between the raid and the far color change portal, so people who got the debuff could also click it. The well rarely used all charges, but generally some other people would use 3 to 5 clicks. I guess that's not bad for one talent point.
I don't use Prayer of Healing for Anub'arak 10H for the record.
Do people actually do that? Seriously? What's the reason? Mental retardation? Chances are you've got one of the 3 other classes with you, their options being: Healing Stream(non resto is also powerful enough for 10man version), Downranked Reju(Can handle 10 targets), Judgement of Light(Will keep every melee class alive forever in both 10 and 25man).
So umm...why even bother with holy nova? :/
Getting back to the purpose of why I brought this up, we're not suggesting a talent spec that fits your gear and raid. We need to suggest the MOST UNIVERSALLY CORRECT spec as the primary choice. This means keeping in regen talents because regen is the first key hurdle to enable you to perform as a healer. This also means not trying to educate your raid to use Lightwell or any other situational talent. Cookie cutter, what you need to do your job, and let's not get confused here, your job isn't to heal the tank, to hot the raid or to be the supreme spothealer, there are other sections of the forum dedicated to people who want to play those classes.
Our healers were a paladin and myself, a priest. We didn't set up the groups for Judgment of Light or Leader of the pack healing, so the casters in the group without a shaman got low. Arguably we should have shuffled the groups but it's not a huge deal. The healing is really light on Anub 10H when there's no penetrating cold out. And one holy nova isn't that much healing anyway. It was the right call. Note that Nova is far better than Prayer of Healing in this situation because of the smaller quantization of the heal.
Our healers were a paladin and myself, a priest. We didn't set up the groups for Judgment of Light or Leader of the pack healing, so the casters in the group without a shaman got low. Arguably we should have shuffled the groups but it's not a huge deal. The healing is really light on Anub 10H when there's no penetrating cold out. And one holy nova isn't that much healing anyway. It was the right call. Note that Nova is far better than Prayer of Healing in this situation because of the smaller quantization of the heal.
I'd go with downranked coh myself, but then I'd also make sure the groups were set up correctly beforehand. Rank1 PoH might be ok too, but it's hardly efficient and you won't be able to keep it up long enough.
We need to suggest the MOST UNIVERSALLY CORRECT spec as the primary choice. This means keeping in regen talents because regen is the first key hurdle to enable you to perform as a healer.
This is the 3.2 Healing Compendium. I believe it is assumed that you are going to be progressing in 3.2 content and be appropriately geared, meaning that the talent choices should reflect current theorycrafting and optimization at this point in game progression. Currently, throughput talents are preferred, sometimes at the expense of 'Cookie cutter, what you need to do your job' talents. I disagree with listing a regressed talent build to support someone in lower tiers of content. There are other forums dedicated to beginner players.
edit: I agree the compendium's talent spec should be updated to reflect current raid content.
Last edited by Carnathagia : 10/19/09 at 12:28 PM.
Reason: clarification of position
I'd go with downranked coh myself, but then I'd also make sure the groups were set up correctly beforehand. Rank1 PoH might be ok too, but it's hardly efficient and you won't be able to keep it up long enough.
CoH isn't group restricted though, so it will probably heal some people from both groups and ignore others. Plus as I was specced Discipline, I didn't have access to Circle of Healing anyway. I'm sure Rank 1 Prayer of Healing would have been fine, but holy nova was less mana and instant cast. And again, it's just one GCD every 15 seconds or so. It's not a big deal. There's more than one way to solve the problem.
I tend to agree that the ElitistJerks audience is mostly cutting-edge players on cutting-edge content, not casuals. Maybe we could at least have 3 builds, Naxx, Uldu, and Coliseum level ? Or very a specialized build for 25-mans, and a more general one for 10-mans, with pointers on the best throughput-regen tradeoff ?
If the above posts are true (namely Starfire's), then why are we still speccing into Serendipity?
I feel like I can drop Serendipity now for gratuitous Body and Soul, and that it is where we should be taking these points from first, if from anywhere.
Serendipity is good for burst healing though. And let's be honest, burst healing is the one thing Priest's can do. Just to be clear, I am not saying don't use PoH; I am saying the value of Healing Prayers depends directly on the number of PoH's you cast (and PoM). If you aren't casting many PoH's, then Healing Prayers isn't super valuable.
I think Serendipity is amazing for healing Incinerate and very good for dealing with the type of damage frequent in Twins.
Even without Empowered Healing, a Serendipity-hastedGreater Heal should be our highest throughput spell; so it retains value for Incinerate or healing the focus-target on Faction Champions. (Although, iirc due to the mechanics of Incinerate, this isn't reflected to well in logs).
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
The problem with providing cookie cutter builds for lower progression tiers is that there are no real raids of such a progression tier. An entry level Naxx raid today has typically nothing to do at all with what it was when we all entered it in leveling blues.
Widely varying gear levels aside, almost all Naxx raids and many Ulduar raids are pugged now, with little regard for raid composition. How should anyone provide a universally good build if we no longer know what the baseline is - in terms of equipment and raid composition?
Basically, there's no real advice other than to look at where the hurt is: single target throughput? multitarget throughput? regen? In my opinion, the healing compendium should just enable the readers to make educated decisions based on their personal needs. This is what it already does nicely.
Originally Posted by Pewsey
Many of our snakes are 3m+ in size. They'll just take the lawnmower off you and beat the shit out of you with it to make you tender, then bite you and eat you.
If this thread is only for cutting edge priests, you don't need help with your spec so I really don't think a noob friendly spec is bad to show on the front page. Specs will change with gear, setup and playstyle. I'm actually thinking of going out of spell warding again, since I never die where it matters anyway.
10/15/09, 8:06 PM
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