Since inspiration provides a flat damage reduction from physical damage and there are lots of bosses with physical AoE attacks or adds that might take a swipe at a non-tank having your circle of healing hand out inspiration is not worthless. There aren't many bosses where this would help, but 2 points in divine fury is not great either.
Yep, sure, but there is indeed no need to max it out, that's what I wanted to state. You need 3 points in this tier to get to 20, and unfortunately the alternatives are much worse.
Regarding Sun_Tzu, as I mentioned, the one point in the build in B&S can be set freely, set it anywhere you want, as I wanted to max it out, I put it there. It's just a filler to get to 40.
And HC, do you really have mana issues? If you kill the bosses with pretty much mana left, I would suggest, either change your equip, or remove HC because it doesn't seems to be needed.
Yep, sure, but there is indeed no need to max it out, that's what I wanted to state. You need 3 points in this tier to get to 20, and unfortunately the alternatives are much worse.
Regarding Sun_Tzu, as I mentioned, the one point in the build in B&S can be set freely, set it anywhere you want, as I wanted to max it out, I put it there. It's just a filler to get to 40.
And HC, do you really have mana issues? If you kill the bosses with pretty much mana left, I would suggest, either change your equip, or remove HC because it doesn't seems to be needed.
The question isn't whether I'm killing a boss that doesn't challenge me at all with mana left, the question is whether I'm still capable of blowing my manapool at a moments notice, and the answer to that is yes, I am. If I'm capable of doing that, then so will other priests be at various levels of content. Again I'll point out, this isn't your TotGC build, this is a general suggestion which should be the baseline for entering any content which you are not previously familiar with. Would you want to walk into a high-spikey-raiddamage fight that lasts 15-20mins in ICC without Holy Concentration? Or would you want to walk into Freya3e for the first time without Holy Concentration? I'm pretty sure the answer to this is no.
I really feel it's hard to give a standard spec for Holy priests. Even B&S is a lot more useful in TOGC than it was in Ulduar. A better way might be to just say which talents are "mandatory" for each tier in the Holy tree, and let the player fill out the rest. For example. I'm only Holy on Twins, so Empowered Renew is really a no brainer, but if I was Holy for everything, then I'd get B&S in there for sure.
I really feel it's hard to give a standard spec for Holy priests. Even B&S is a lot more useful in TOGC than it was in Ulduar. A better way might be to just say which talents are "mandatory" for each tier in the Holy tree, and let the player fill out the rest. For example. I'm only Holy on Twins, so Empowered Renew is really a no brainer, but if I was Holy for everything, then I'd get B&S in there for sure.
B&S has it's uses yes, but instead don't depend on it and you'll have two points somewhere else giving more benefit. By planning and thinking fast on your feet you have overcome the uses of B&S and the rest of the raid sure can't depend on you to make them run faster, that would be wrong.
B&S has it's uses yes, but instead don't depend on it and you'll have two points somewhere else giving more benefit. By planning and thinking fast on your feet you have overcome the uses of B&S and the rest of the raid sure can't depend on you to make them run faster, that would be wrong.
Running faster is almost always a dps (and/or hps) gain, regardless though.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Running faster is almost always a dps (and/or hps) gain, regardless though.
Well assuming you'd have to run from one spot to another and then cast a spell sure, but in reality (in my opinion anyways) you'd naturally cast spells while running aswell since so many of our important spells are instants (CoH, PoM, renew tho I dislike that playstyle, instant flash heal, shield in worst case) and those two points would make an overall higher gain somewhere else than that of the times you'd have to run with B&S. I just cannot remember any time I had wished I had B&S and that it had actually saved someone by me getting somewhere faster.
I've found B&S to be invaluable. It always comes in handy for chasing after tanks that manage to get just out of range. So I can actually say having this talent probably has saved us a couple wipes.
I've found B&S to be invaluable. It always comes in handy for chasing after tanks that manage to get just out of range. So I can actually say having this talent probably has saved us a couple wipes.
However if you do not take the talent you're forced to grow as a player and become more attentive of your surroundings and your tank, meaning you'll notice when they started moving, or even that you'll be capable of predicting when they are going to move. Sometimes forcing yourself to do something that's hard is good for your overall development.
However if you do not take the talent you're forced to grow as a player and become more attentive of your surroundings and your tank, meaning you'll notice when they started moving, or even that you'll be capable of predicting when they are going to move. Sometimes forcing yourself to do something that's hard is good for your overall development.
That's a stupid argument. By that token, skipping the mana conservation talents means that you are forced to overheal less as you have less mana, which leads to paying more attention. Skipping the throughput talents means you have to pay more attention to which spells you use. Etc, etc etc...
Body and soul is one of the few spells that can compensate for poor play or mistakes, and in the current tier of content has plenty of useful applications, especially when learning the fight. I can understand people who might choose to skip it because in their guild people don't fuck up idiot checks much or at all, but choosing not to take it because you do not want to make fights easier seems really willfully masochistic.
That's a stupid argument. By that token, skipping the mana conservation talents means that you are forced to overheal less as you have less mana, which leads to paying more attention. Skipping the throughput talents means you have to pay more attention to which spells you use. Etc, etc etc...
Body and soul is one of the few spells that can compensate for poor play or mistakes, and in the current tier of content has plenty of useful applications, especially when learning the fight. I can understand people who might choose to skip it because in their guild people don't fuck up idiot checks much or at all, but choosing not to take it because you do not want to make fights easier seems really willfully masochistic.
Well there is a big difference between mana conservation talents, throughput talents and B&S. Moving in oh so many bossfights is very important, be it moving fast and/or moving often. Predicting where the tanks will move and where you yourself have to move is a big part of the fight, so if you do that then you won't have problems with running. If you cannot cope with the changing environment then yes B&S can be a lifesaver.
The only prediction necessary for mana-regen, in my opinion, is what trinkets i'll be using for a fight, for throughput, well, I can never get enough of throughput.
But yes, if I was in a guild where the tanks were stupid and there were dps who needed constant rescue over and over again in form of runspeed then I would take B&S.
B&S can cover situations that don't arise from people being stupid. There are plenty of fights, and there will be plenty more, that create situations where being able to make someone move faster can help to compensate for the random elements of the fight. Mushroom and tentacle placement in Ulduar, being able to catch an otherwise uncatchable string of orbs on Val'kyrs, being targetted by a large number of swarm scarabs and needing to run an unusual getaway path are some examples off the top of my head. The fact is that holy priests are able to provide a buff that no other class is able to provide. No one else can hand out mini-sprints.
I really don't think it's a case where if everyone is playing right then you don't need B&S, I think it's more the case that it will take a lot of time and practice before people are able to exploit B&S to it's fullest. It requires a completely new kind of situational awareness to be able to utilize this talent fully. Looking at the current state of a fight and realizing how your raid could benefit from one member having a short burst of speed is something that no one playing WoW has ever had to do before B&S came out. It's almost impossible for me to believe that a raid where at any given time any member could be moving 60% faster is not better than a raid that does not have that capability, and I can't see how that capability is not worth a 2 talent point investment from a single raid member.
An idiot is someone who would rather be treated like an idiot than called an idiot
That's a stupid argument. By that token, skipping the mana conservation talents means that you are forced to overheal less as you have less mana, which leads to paying more attention. Skipping the throughput talents means you have to pay more attention to which spells you use. Etc, etc etc...
Body and soul is one of the few spells that can compensate for poor play or mistakes, and in the current tier of content has plenty of useful applications, especially when learning the fight. I can understand people who might choose to skip it because in their guild people don't fuck up idiot checks much or at all, but choosing not to take it because you do not want to make fights easier seems really willfully masochistic.
I suppose there's some use for it in terms of compensating for poor play, but unless it's specifically agreed upon as part of the strategy you are unlikely to see large and consistent life-saving benefits from it.
In terms of DPS gains, let's say each shield buys the dps in question 2 seconds more dps at around 8000dps with totgc gear. We'll ignore instacasts or other things they might be doing while running, or the fact that many melee dps have other means of getting back into dps range fast(dash, charge, speedboosting talents). So how many shields do you need to throw before it's worth it? 1% dps gain? That's the target for each dps talent after all. I'll even go with just 1% for both points. Assuming 16dps and 2 tanks, DPS averaging 8k DPS and tanks averaging 3k, a fightlength of 5mins. That's 134K raid dps and 40,2mil total raid damage done. Each shield with these assumptions increases total raid damage by ~0,0004%. To reach the 1% dps gain you need to throw 2500 shields over a 5min period, averaging at 8,3 shields per second. Realistically you might buy your raid 10 seconds more dps, a grand total of 80k damage or 0.002% increase.
Still worth the talentpoints in terms of dps increase? The healing numbers might be a bit better but then most healers have some instacasts for when moving.
So it's pretty clear that B&S is all down to whether you manage to save peoples lives with it consistently, and that those lives could not have been saved by other means such as normal instacast heals or damage reducing cooldowns.
I have no problem whatsoever with your conclusion, I agree that body and soul is only really useful if it is either part of your strategy or you are learning the fight and people haven't mastered the mechanic.
I just think the reasoning you used in your earlier post was a bit absurd. If something helps me do my job more easily, I am going to take it, I won't skip it to force myself to play better.
I suppose there's some use for it in terms of compensating for poor play, but unless it's specifically agreed upon as part of the strategy you are unlikely to see large and consistent life-saving benefits from it.
In terms of DPS gains, let's say each shield buys the dps in question 2 seconds more dps at around 8000dps with totgc gear. We'll ignore instacasts or other things they might be doing while running, or the fact that many melee dps have other means of getting back into dps range fast(dash, charge, speedboosting talents). So how many shields do you need to throw before it's worth it? 1% dps gain? That's the target for each dps talent after all. I'll even go with just 1% for both points. Assuming 16dps and 2 tanks, DPS averaging 8k DPS and tanks averaging 3k, a fightlength of 5mins. That's 134K raid dps and 40,2mil total raid damage done. Each shield with these assumptions increases total raid damage by ~0,0004%. To reach the 1% dps gain you need to throw 2500 shields over a 5min period, averaging at 8,3 shields per second. Realistically you might buy your raid 10 seconds more dps, a grand total of 80k damage or 0.002% increase.
Still worth the talentpoints in terms of dps increase? The healing numbers might be a bit better but then most healers have some instacasts for when moving.
So it's pretty clear that B&S is all down to whether you manage to save peoples lives with it consistently, and that those lives could not have been saved by other means such as normal instacast heals or damage reducing cooldowns.
You're unlikely to see "large and consistent life-saving benefits," from your 56th and 57th points in holy, regardless of where you put them. It's nice to have an extra tool in your box.
Also, your math is setting a goal of 1% raid DPS. The standard for a DPS talent point is 1% personal DPS, not 1% raid DPS. A 1% increase to personal DPS with your raid example is worth 0.06% raid DPS (80 DPS for one of the DPS classes). Also, your math is off. Each shield is 16k damage (assuming 8k dps with 2 second time savings as you said), which is 0.04% of 40.2 million, not 0.0004%. This makes "three" the number of shields you'd need to throw over a 5 minute period for B&S to be a worthwhile DPS talent under your assumptions, not 2500.
In addition to its DPS benefit, I think the two points in B&S are more likely to prevent deaths than whatever your two least favorite talent points in your holy build are, even if it does so by compensating for mistakes.
Also, sometimes B&S can save two people time with one shield, such as when you bring burning bile and paralytic toxin people together faster, or two brain linked people together.
I think I look at B&S as a time-saver for myself. I like the flexibility of being able to wait for a cast to finish before running off to where I need to go. On heroic Twins (after a light vortex) I wait to switch back to the dark color until all the other healers have switched. I find it easier to stagger the healing through this transition. And I can return to healing more quickly. B&S really suits our strategy. I also use it on dps that get the paralytic toxin. It means they can get back to dpsing more quickly.
It's just such a "convenient" talent. That may make my guild's style of play lazy but I can't see the logic in ignoring a talent because it makes the fight mechanics easier for us. Now I'm not convinced that B&S is a necessary talent for everyone. But I would argue I get more benefit out of it than many other talents at this level of progression.
It should also be mentioned that the value of B&S is highly dependent on the playstyle of your disc priest (if present). If you have a Disc in the raid doing bubble spam then B&S becomes a highly undesirable talent as you will frequently find yourself unable to proc it because of 2/3 of the raid being in weakened soul.
I've found B&S to be invaluable in many fights. From making the frost patches on anub heroic last to their limit to the ability to make dps in the brain run faster in the yogg zero encounter. I've found that B&S can not only be a fun talent that assists players not only from making mistakes to also helping players deal with poor situations that encounters push them into.
Twin Valks: Their single target damage debuffs, as nice as it is to say that you can out heal it, when you want to push an insanity run, the extra damage just is not worth it, BnS helps massively.
Anub: Tanks, Impale focuses, Scarab focuses BnS helps mitigate all of the major issues with the boss fight and helps make the encounter easier for all involved.
Yogg Zero: Brain Link, Crappy tentacle placement, hard beacon pull outs and helps taunters get back into the fight asap.
Lord Jarraxus:Legion Flame, Add Grabbing, gets the flame out of the raid, makes the spaces between the flames bigger so you can run between the firespawns versus having a huge wall that forces more raid damage. Helps the tank get to it's adds and gets them under-control especially helpful when your tank is out of taunts.
Having heightened Raid awareness, all raid debuffs on your raid frames, knowledge of encounters all make body and soul an amazing talent to have.
This is also not including it's ability to save you, when yea I know we all post on EJ and are above messing up, but it will save you. It will help you get in range of someone that needs a heal and it will get you away from the bad faster to start healing before any other stand and casters. *stupid druids*
It should also be mentioned that the value of B&S is highly dependent on the playstyle of your disc priest (if present). If you have a Disc in the raid doing bubble spam then B&S becomes a highly undesirable talent as you will frequently find yourself unable to proc it because of 2/3 of the raid being in weakened soul.
I think good communication can mitigate most of that, though.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
You're unlikely to see "large and consistent life-saving benefits," from your 56th and 57th points in holy, regardless of where you put them. It's nice to have an extra tool in your box.
Also, your math is setting a goal of 1% raid DPS. The standard for a DPS talent point is 1% personal DPS, not 1% raid DPS. A 1% increase to personal DPS with your raid example is worth 0.06% raid DPS (80 DPS for one of the DPS classes). Also, your math is off. Each shield is 16k damage (assuming 8k dps with 2 second time savings as you said), which is 0.04% of 40.2 million, not 0.0004%. This makes "three" the number of shields you'd need to throw over a 5 minute period for B&S to be a worthwhile DPS talent under your assumptions, not 2500.
In addition to its DPS benefit, I think the two points in B&S are more likely to prevent deaths than whatever your two least favorite talent points in your holy build are, even if it does so by compensating for mistakes.
Also, sometimes B&S can save two people time with one shield, such as when you bring burning bile and paralytic toxin people together faster, or two brain linked people together.
Geh, mathfail, I'll chalk that up to not having slept for 40hours when I wrote that :/
So raid: 40.2mil, 16k/shield, 1shield = 0.04%, 25shields over 5 minutes to get to 1% raid dps increase meaning one shield every 12 seconds.
Personal dps: Assuming said 8k dps, 5min length, 2.4mil overall dmg for each dps, 1 shield = 0.67%, 3 shields over 5 minutes to reach the 1%/talentpoint limit.
I guess that does put it better on par with dps talents if utilized properly. I wonder has anyone actually talked it over with your dps to see which classes actually find this useful? I'm pretty sure you could get more benefit out of it if you narrowed down its use to a few specific classes which have issues with moving in and out of battle. Probably not rogues(sprint)/ferals(dash+charge)/warriors(charge)/spriests(dotclass)/locks(dots+portal)/hunters(high pet dps/long range/instants)/mages(blink) atleast. Enhashamans might be a good choice except for shocks and being able to time MW proc casts for moving to some extent. There's movement speed increasing talents available to Pala/DK but I can't remember exactly how they work/whether they are attainable and I'm unfamiliar with the range dps capabilities of these classes. Potential benefitters might be boomkins, although they can use feral dash to get in and out quicker and ele shamans, although ele has shocks as instants.
alright, new topic. holy tank healing. is this viable, if i were spec'd into GH they would hit for around 11.8k and my FH would go off for 5.8, seems decent. just wondering what pally's are hitting. SoL seems to be an absolute bomb when ramping up to serendipity(3). i am really just being curious here. shot in the dark. discuss please
I am dual spec'd Holy/Shadow. I switch my holy to a tank healing holy when our raid makeup absolutely requires it. I do this for 2 reasons; first, I have never taken the time to learn disc healing so I wouldn't know what I was doing. Secondly, all of my gear is tuned for holy healing, lots of haste, etc... So I figure the I am probably better holy tank healing than I would be as disc, even though it is technically better.
I am dual spec'd Holy/Shadow. I switch my holy to a tank healing holy when our raid makeup absolutely requires it. I do this for 2 reasons; first, I have never taken the time to learn disc healing so I wouldn't know what I was doing. Secondly, all of my gear is tuned for holy healing, lots of haste, etc... So I figure the I am probably better holy tank healing than I would be as disc, even though it is technically better.
In that case you should switch to raid healing in that situation and have an additional person from the core healing team handle tank healing.
Well, we only do 10 mans, so we two heal. The times I've done this is when it is a druid and myself. In that situation should the druid be tank healing? I guess one time when I did this we were three healing with myself and two tree druids on Heroic NRB.
Well, we only do 10 mans, so we two heal. The times I've done this is when it is a druid and myself. In that situation should the druid be tank healing? I guess one time when I did this we were three healing with myself and two tree druids on Heroic NRB.
So your 10 man normally runs with 1 healer?
Besides, if you're only doing 10 man Discipline is a very strong raid-healing spec as well. When there are only two groups to heal, Discipline can do an exceptional job with PWS/PoH. Haste isn't exactly terrible for Discipline assuming you weren't gemming for it. What I mean by this is, your gear is going to have haste anyways, there's not much you can do about it.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
10/22/09, 1:27 PM
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