Elitist Jerks WotLK Healing Compendium v3.2: Same Old Thing

06/27/09, 8:54 AM   #601
Elimbras
Don Flamenco

Dwarf Priest

Eitrigg (EU)
 Originally Posted by Liths You're overestimating the value of SG.
Sorry, I messed up between Spiritual Healing (+2% heal) and Spiritual Guidance (spirit -> spellpower).
I was meaning SH in the previous message, rather than SG.

06/28/09, 7:26 PM   #602
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Elimbras I don't know how you can get 43% uptime with 4 casts every 12s, with 28% crit. Or more precisely, you either have here a computation error, or you're assuming a weird cycle you don't specify. HC duration is 8s, so what matters is how many cast you had in the last 8s. 4 cast every 12s can be simplified into 2.666 cast every 8s, leading to an uptime 58.3%. If casts are assumed to be evenly distributed, then it's a cast every 3s, so at any time, you have 33% of chance of heaving only 2 casts in the last 8s, leading to an uptime of 48%, and 66% of chance of having 3 casts in the last 8s, leading to 63% uptime. So, the final uptime is 57.8% (for those who are sceptical about this kind of "time decomposition", read the theory of Palm probability). The only way to get 42% of uptime is to consider that your 4 casts happen at the same time (or mathematically, you have 66% chance to have 4 casts in 8s, and 33% chance of having zero cast in the last 8s).
I actually made a slight mistake and used 6s duration instead of 8s.

The actual uptime is 55%. I amended this in the post.

Casts are unevenly distributed. In most cases you have single target heals alternating with aoe heals and sometimes a few seconds of no casting. Using a senario where you have an average of 4 closely spaced HC procing spells (with 3 GCDs in between), I simply determine the average length of HC uptime produced by those 4 casts and divide by the cycle duration which is 12 seconds. Because the single target heals are closely spaced you lose more uptime to overwrites. In some fights with more single target healing, I can easily approach uptimes of up to 70% though.

The take home message is that spirit is in no way 50% the regen value of intellect. Its more like 75%+

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Why is Spi Healing a must have talent? The reason is that it has an uncommonly high return per point and its passive. inking those points in SH gives you a high return 5 times. BR gives you average return 3 times. If you dont spend those points in SH, there is no point in spending those talents in other throughput boosting talents, you will make a loss. Since throughput talents can be important and SH and DP represent together the biggest part of the throughput boosts you can get via talent, they are essential not optional talents.

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 Your last PoH lands at 8 seconds and while it's conjecture, I'd imagine that any Prayer of Healing done 6 seconds after spike damage is likely to be mostly overheal. If the damage is ongoing, like in Mim ph2 then the 3% gain is a solid competitor to the ever diminishing value of the first hasted PoH of a maximum hps rotation. Therein lies the true value of the spell. If a group of people are about to die within 2 (meaning 2.5 seconds is too long) then Serendipity is the best talent. 25% haste requires 510 haste rating from gear (according to Rawr which seems to get 1.25% from somewhere...) which is accessible in Uld25 gear. My gear's not amazing and I can hit it. Though I'd agree the further you are from 25% haste the greater the value of Serendipity becomes. Btw, changing the rotation to add binding+flash pushes your second PoH to land at 7.5 seconds which is 1.5 seconds later than the other rotation. At that point you're likely to have a lot more overhealing, where it'd be better to front load as many of the PoH's as possible. Also I find it odd that you consider Bind+Flash preferrable to PoH considering you only get 3 heals in the same span of time that the other rotation gets 5. The total healing would be similar, but you've distributed it across 2 fewer players, which should not be your goal.
Serendipity means all your spells land earlier by a certain time and the later your aoe spells land the greater the overheal, so that means the benefit from serendipity evaporates much slower than the benefit from BR.

The last poh lands at 8 seconds, but the first two PoHs land in quick succession in the middle of the spike, where damage is highest and overheal minimised. Also they both land 0.5 seconds faster than the non serendipity priest and are guaranteed to get a better piece of the action.

Mimi p2 you get raid wide aoe pikes of 5 seconds followed by bursts in 1-3 targets. This particular type of on going damage with rapidly alternating aoe and single target healing is exactly the reason why I included the BH+FH combo and the senario in which serendipity is at its strongest compared to BR. Serendipity easily produced boosts in excess of 20% in this kind of senario.

There is simply no possible senario except prolonged PoM/PoM/CoH spam (which does not exist) where BR comes even close to serendipity. Serendipity makes it easier to fit PoH and gheals into your sequences and that produced increases that are in the other of 10%. True this may be diluted strongly by the fact that you are not casting aoe heals most of the time, but aoe heals heal for massive amounts and aoe heals are the biggest strength of a holy priest. It makes zero sense to me to give up a large boost to my strongest weapons, instead of a minor increase to all spells, especially since serendipity has additional value over the throughput boost.

 06/29/09, 6:28 AM #603 Sanctum Glass Joe   Sanctum Dwarf Priest   Tichondrius On the subject of hard mode vezax specs. Is grace or improved flash heal really worth it for that fight? Assuming you're using a two discipline priest rotation won't grace very rarely be on the tank when you're healing him, and won't you be casting almost no flash heals? I was thinking of dropping these points to get down to improved healing.
06/29/09, 7:19 AM   #604
Iphalna
Glass Joe

Human Priest

Zirkel des Cenarius (EU)
 Originally Posted by Sanctum On the subject of hard mode vezax specs. Is grace or improved flash heal really worth it for that fight? Assuming you're using a two discipline priest rotation won't grace very rarely be on the tank when you're healing him, and won't you be casting almost no flash heals? I was thinking of dropping these points to get down to improved healing.
We used three discipline priests on our first kill and altogether had a total number of five casted flashheals, so improved flash heal is definitely an option to save some points.
During P1 and P3 grace drops pretty ofter so it is possible to spare the points, but if you are assigned to heal one of the tanks through P2 you should put a point into it.

 06/30/09, 4:05 AM #605 incko Glass Joe   kaydar Draenei Shaman   Eredar (EU) mmo-champion released the new tier 9 set boni yesterday. Item - Priest T9 Healing 2P Bonus (Prayer of Mending) - Increases the healing done by your Prayer of Mending spell by 20%. Item - Priest T9 Healing 4P Bonus (Divine Aegis and Empowered Renew) - Increases the shield from your Divine Aegis and the instant healing from your Empowered Renew by 10%. the 4P bonus is rather weak imo, i don't really cast renew that much. what is your opinion?
06/30/09, 4:33 AM   #606
Hegen
In gear/DCT lock pin

Human Priest

Alleria (EU)
If the effect of the 4P bonus increases the current instant healing by 10%, it's worthless. If, as I assume, it increases the instant effect of Empowered Renew by an absolute amount so it's then 25% instead of 15% of the total healing done by renew, then it's nice.

The instant effect now already borders on being useful by itself (it's just terribly mana inefficient). However, as it is, I would be reluctant to trade my T8 2P for it, just because of the small number of renews cast by me.

That said, it has always been difficult to judge new features, effects or talents by looking at content the stuff isn't made for. Test of faith didn't make too much sense looking at Naxxramas. A few bosses into Ulduar changed this completely. If we see more DoT or other periodic damage on a number of people, the bonus might look very good.

 Originally Posted by Jeremy Clarkson The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.

 06/30/09, 7:42 AM #607 Sarjin Piston Honda   Sarjin Troll Priest   Runetotem (EU) That's a good point actually, though I personally feel it might not be the case. Looking at the wording initially, the 2 piece sounds like an extremely powerful bonus (Actually would not be surprised to see them tone it down a little), whereas the 4 piece bonus sounds extremely weak if all it does is increase the instant portion by 10%, given the usage Renew gets from most of us right now. Still, I fear that this is indeed the case, even if taking 25% of the total healing of Renew as instant would actually be something to consider, whereas a 10% bonus would be pretty much meaningless. Still, I suspect that had it been the case, the bonus would have been worded differently, also looking at other set bonuses which got changed last night. Something like: The instant heal from your Empowered Renew will heal for an additional 10% of your Renew's total periodic effect and your Divine Aegis shield gains an additional 10% of the healing done on spell criticals. Admittedly this would be a rather long tooltip (though looking at Shadowform they don't seem that bothered by that), but such a description would be a lot more according to linguistic conventions they seem to have when formulating the tooltips. Overall at least if it is just a 10% increase to the instant effect, color me unimpressed. It will essentially make zero difference, and will not influence our casting behaviour in any way. On the other hand, bumping the instant heal to 25% will make Renew a far more interesting option for single target healing, I'd say. ( not supported by any napkin math for now) We can always speculate on how healing patterns will vary, but even then the Aegis bonus seems considerably more powerful (considering how integral it is for Discipline heals) than the Empowered Renew component. On the bright side they seem to finally warm to giving dual set bonuses, and at least the slam dunk bonus is the 2 piece one. Still hope it will indeed be the 'additional 10%' kind of bonus (Which would hardly be overpowered when compared to classes gaining 5% damage on their main nukes), though not entirely hopeful about it.
 06/30/09, 11:10 AM #608 Elimbras Don Flamenco   Mordil Dwarf Priest   Eitrigg (EU) Renew scales better with spellpower, so it will gain interest in the following tiers. The question is more about the damage pattern, and wether a 3-second paced hot is adapted to it or not.
06/30/09, 1:35 PM   #609
Sinndir
Great Tiger

Night Elf Priest

Medivh
 Originally Posted by Elimbras Renew scales better with spellpower, so it will gain interest in the following tiers. The question is more about the damage pattern, and wether a 3-second paced hot is adapted to it or not.
Just because it scales well with spellpower does not mean we're going to cast it more. Fully talented we get 216% of our spellpower onto renew. Base it is 1400 over 15 seconds, so lets do some math.

Formula: Spell = [Average + (Spellpower * coefficient)]*(talent modifiers)
average = 1400
spellpower = x
coefficient = 2.16
talent modifiers = +15% (imp renew), +10% (spiritual healing), +5% (twin disciplines)
note: the +15% spellpower to renew is added into the 2.16 coefficient

@2000 spellpower
Spell = [1400 + (2000 * 2.16)]*(1.15*1.1*1.05)
Spell = [1400 + 4320] * 1.32825
Spell = 7598 - Avg tick = 1519.6 (emp renew heal = 1140)

@3000 spellpower (should be easily attainable now)
Spell = [1400 + 6480] * 1.32825
Spell = 10467 - Avg tick = 2093.4 (emp renew heal = 1570)

@4000 spellpower (Should be attainable with the new tier + epic gems)
Spell = [1400 + 8640] * 1.32825
Spell = 13336 - Avg tick = 2667.2 (emp renew heal = 2000)

It honestly still is not that good at 4000 spellpower, but at 5000 spellpower it will be roughly 3k ticks and 2.5k instant heals.

 06/30/09, 2:46 PM #610 constantius Soda Popinski   Nidaba Pandaren Priest   Windrunner If you're serious about it, add the Glyph. That should crank up the ticks to almost 4k in full Arena (Coliseum? whatever!) gear. Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
06/30/09, 6:43 PM   #611
Sinndir
Great Tiger

Night Elf Priest

Medivh
 Originally Posted by constantius If you're serious about it, add the Glyph. That should crank up the ticks to almost 4k in full Arena (Coliseum? whatever!) gear.
Yep. Though it keeps the empowered renew instant the same ya?

 07/01/09, 11:24 AM #612 incko Glass Joe   kaydar Draenei Shaman   Eredar (EU) yep, emp. renew scales with the total amount of healing but the glyph only increases hps.
 07/01/09, 2:34 PM #613 tasha Von Kaiser   Ayune Blood Elf Priest   Talnivarr (EU) T9-4 pieces Bonus for discipline. If Divine Aegis goes from 30% shield on crit to 40%... (crits go up to 210% raw). It's an increase in throughput of 4.3% at 40% crit, and 5.1% at 50% crit. Assuming: no overheal, no PW:S. The more you overheal, the better it becomes though, because DA on a tank doesn't overheal (and the 10k cap is pretty far if you're the only disc priest assigned). At 40% overheal, no PW:S, it's a 6.7% increase (at 40% crit) or 7.7% (at 50% crit). (Don't start to believe overhealing is good though...). Now if PW:S absorption effect accounts for x% of your total healing. The increase from T9-4 bonus is multiplicated by (1-x). For example, if your PW:S did 30% absorption (average when you cast some shields on the raid), at 40% crit, 40% overheal you get a 6.7*(1-0.3) = 4.7% increase in throughput. Notes: I am not bothering with renew, or DA shields which are wasted. I took 40% overhealing, because it's the maximum overhealing value I had as disc. It should be lower. If you don't like my examples and arbitrary numbers, make your owns. 40% crit, 40% overheal, 10% PW:S absorption. 0.6*(0.6 + 0.4*1.5) + 0.4*1.5*0.3 = 0.90 0.6*(0.6 + 0.4*1.5) + 0.4*1.5*0.4 = 0.96 ((0.96 - 0.90)/0.90)*(1 - 0.1) = 6.0% 40% crit, 20% overheal, 30% PW:S absorption. 0.8*(0.6 + 0.4*1.5) + 0.4*1.5*0.3 = 1.14 0.8*(0.6 + 0.4*1.5) + 0.4*1.5*0.4 = 1.2 ((1.20 - 1.14)/1.14)*(1 - 0.3) = 3.7% 50% crit, 40% overheal, 10% PW:S absorption. 0.6*(0.5 + 0.5*1.5) + 0.5*1.5*0.3 = 0.98 0.6*(0.5 + 0.5*1.5) + 0.5*1.5*0.4 = 1.05 ((1.05 - 0.98)/0.98)*(1 - 0.1) = 6.9% 50% crit, 20% overheal, 30% PW:S absorption. 0.8*(0.5 + 0.5*1.5) + 0.5*1.5*0.3 = 1.23 0.8*(0.5 + 0.5*1.5) + 0.5*1.5*0.4 = 1.30 ((1.30 - 1.23)/1.23)*(1 - 0.3) = 4.0% Edit: Actualy, 50% crit even in T9, might be overkill... Last edited by tasha : 07/01/09 at 2:47 PM.
 07/01/09, 6:29 PM #614 Liths Piston Honda     Amarcy Human Priest   Emerald Dream (EU) Very odd, yet another 4 piece bonus which seem great for disc and rather poor for holy. It's better than t8 bonus I suppose, I certanly use renew more than pw:s as holy, but it doesn't get me very excited.
07/01/09, 6:56 PM   #615
Sinndir
Great Tiger

Night Elf Priest

Medivh
 Originally Posted by Liths Very odd, yet another 4 piece bonus which seem great for disc and rather poor for holy. It's better than t8 bonus I suppose, I certanly use renew more than pw:s as holy, but it doesn't get me very excited.
Oh well, the 2 piece bonus for improving prayer of mending is unbelievable.

 Elitist Jerks WotLK Healing Compendium v3.2: Same Old Thing