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Old 08/05/09, 4:09 PM   #661
tedv
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Goblin Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
As an addendum, I'd like to note that gearing for Discipline is very different from Holy. In holy, you can take pretty much any combination of the stats and it will be decent. This is not at all true for Discipline though. Several pages back there was some math showing that crit was downright horrid for Discipline even when factoring in Divine Aegis. This is generally because you're casting Power Word: Shield a lot, and this spell doesn't crit. Similarly, it's very easy to get GCD capped with too much haste because of Borrowed Time. So Discipline doesn't want Haste either. Spirit isn't a particularly great stat for Holy, but it's much worse for Discipline. There's no spirit -> spell power conversion, no Holy Concentration, and no reason to abuse the 5 second rule. As a discipline priest, the only stats you can even consider stacking are Intellect and Spell Power. Stack Intellect if you're running out of mana and Spell Power if you're not.

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Old 08/05/09, 6:36 PM   #662
wowsaa
Glass Joe
 
Undead Priest
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by tedv View Post
As an addendum, I'd like to note that gearing for Discipline is very different from Holy. In holy, you can take pretty much any combination of the stats and it will be decent. This is not at all true for Discipline though. Several pages back there was some math showing that crit was downright horrid for Discipline even when factoring in Divine Aegis. This is generally because you're casting Power Word: Shield a lot, and this spell doesn't crit. Similarly, it's very easy to get GCD capped with too much haste because of Borrowed Time. So Discipline doesn't want Haste either. Spirit isn't a particularly great stat for Holy, but it's much worse for Discipline. There's no spirit -> spell power conversion, no Holy Concentration, and no reason to abuse the 5 second rule. As a discipline priest, the only stats you can even consider stacking are Intellect and Spell Power. Stack Intellect if you're running out of mana and Spell Power if you're not.
That has been changed, so crit may become a much stronger stat than before.

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Old 08/05/09, 6:48 PM   #663
Falim
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Dwarf Priest
 
Shattered Hand
Originally Posted by wowsaa View Post
That has been changed, so crit may become a much stronger stat than before.
Huh, where was this mentioned.

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Old 08/05/09, 7:43 PM   #664
caladein
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Originally Posted by Falim View Post
Huh, where was this mentioned.
Well, they changed Glyph of Power Word: Shield criticals to proc Divine Aegis (bugged to only shields cast on self right now). I can't think of anything else he could be referring to.

That's not a huge change as GoPW:S hasn't gone north of 10% of my total healing even on Mimiron parses.

Last edited by caladein : 08/05/09 at 7:50 PM. Reason: Fixed "bugged" parathetical.

Originally Posted by Snowy View Post
Lightwell owns even more because there's more charges for you if other people don't use it as much!

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Old 08/05/09, 8:16 PM   #665
Headhuntress
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Darksorrow (EU)
[Runed Cardinal Ruby] is either underpowered or intentionally underpowered to promote hybrid gems(most likely the second). While for rare quality gems using pure gems is better, in example 19 SP & 16 Int> 2x 9 SP +8 Int the epic gems turn the tides since the hybrids are 12 SP each. So [Luminous Ametrine]x2 is 1 SP better than [Runed Cardinal Ruby] plus [Brilliant King's Amber] and also more flexible with socket bonuses. Of course the difference is so minor that the best you could get out of a gemming like this is around 4 or 6 SP max. It's also half the price with Emblems.

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Old 08/06/09, 1:26 AM   #666
Promethia
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Kilrogg
Originally Posted by tedv View Post
As an addendum, I'd like to note that gearing for Discipline is very different from Holy. In holy, you can take pretty much any combination of the stats and it will be decent. This is not at all true for Discipline though. Several pages back there was some math showing that crit was downright horrid for Discipline even when factoring in Divine Aegis. This is generally because you're casting Power Word: Shield a lot, and this spell doesn't crit. Similarly, it's very easy to get GCD capped with too much haste because of Borrowed Time. So Discipline doesn't want Haste either. Spirit isn't a particularly great stat for Holy, but it's much worse for Discipline. There's no spirit -> spell power conversion, no Holy Concentration, and no reason to abuse the 5 second rule. As a discipline priest, the only stats you can even consider stacking are Intellect and Spell Power. Stack Intellect if you're running out of mana and Spell Power if you're not.
The way I look at it is that casting PWS a lot reduces the value of crit and haste to you.

Especially on MT healing as disc, you may not cast that many PWS's. Crit is also important to keep inspiration up and divine aegis stacks provide a little blunting on the larger hits, which is important when a tank fails to avoid a few hits in a row. You can liberally overheal the main tank (given enough mana) if you have a reasonably high crit rate, knowing that crits will at least stack DA even if you completely overheal.

I still agree intellect and spell power are king, but at least for throughput crit is almost always going to be better for disc than for holy. Even with no overhealing, disc gets 90% more throughput benefit compared to holy (effectively a 0.95 crit bonus multiplier instead of 0.5).

But overhealing makes that differential benefit more extreme. Suppose you typically overheal 20% on your crit heals, which is rather modest rate. That would mean your heal size on crits is 1.2 times normal (80% of 1.5) as holy. For discipline, you would get that 1.2 times normal heal plus a 0.45 times normal DA shield. That means the added benefit from crit is 0.65 times normal -- 3.25 times the 0.2 benefit holy sees.

That doesn't mean crit is great for discipline priests, but you would need to be casting shield a lot before holy would see more benefit from crit.

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Old 08/06/09, 1:39 AM   #667
caladein
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Originally Posted by Headhuntress View Post
[Runed Cardinal Ruby] is either underpowered or intentionally underpowered to promote hybrid gems(most likely the second). While for rare quality gems using pure gems is better, in example 19 SP & 16 Int> 2x 9 SP +8 Int the epic gems turn the tides since the hybrids are 12 SP each. So [Luminous Ametrine]x2 is 1 SP better than [Runed Cardinal Ruby] plus [Brilliant King's Amber] and also more flexible with socket bonuses. Of course the difference is so minor that the best you could get out of a gemming like this is around 4 or 6 SP max. It's also half the price with Emblems.
It's just the first.

You'll run into "anomalies" with gems due to rounding as: a) the numbers are very small (see pre-3.2 gems with MP5) and b) you're easily able to compare these gems with other items of the same budget.

Here's a few gems as an example, with the pre-3.2 values for MP5 in parenthesis:
[Lustrous Azure Moonstone] (2 MP5) / [Dazzling Deep Peridot] (1 MP5)
[Lustrous Star of Elune] (3 MP5) / [Dazzling Talasite] (same as current, 2 MP5)
[Lustrous Empyrean Sapphire] (4 MP5) [Dazzling Seaspray Emerald] (2 MP5)

Pre-3.2, everything looks okay, except that [Dazzling Talasite] looks a good deal "over-budget" and [Dazzling Seaspray Emerald] looks like a rip-off. With the Talasite keeping its MP5 stat the same after the patch, that also suggest its "over-budget-ness" was due to rounding.

Now, the "over-budget" gem above is the [Dazzling Deep Peridot]. We have a similar case with the new [Perfect Lustrous Chalcedony] and [Perfect Dazzling Dark Jade].

If you work out the inequalities for both pure and mixed Epic Wrath Spellpower gems (22.5 <= x < 23.5 and 11.5 <= x/2 < 12.5) the numbers all work out rather neatly.

Last edited by caladein : 08/06/09 at 1:42 AM. Reason: Added quote.

Originally Posted by Snowy View Post
Lightwell owns even more because there's more charges for you if other people don't use it as much!

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Old 08/06/09, 5:01 AM   #668
FauxFaux
Glass Joe
 
Human Priest
 
Malygos
Originally Posted by tedv View Post
As an addendum, I'd like to note that gearing for Discipline is very different from Holy. In holy, you can take pretty much any combination of the stats and it will be decent. This is not at all true for Discipline though. Several pages back there was some math showing that crit was downright horrid for Discipline even when factoring in Divine Aegis. This is generally because you're casting Power Word: Shield a lot, and this spell doesn't crit. Similarly, it's very easy to get GCD capped with too much haste because of Borrowed Time. So Discipline doesn't want Haste either. Spirit isn't a particularly great stat for Holy, but it's much worse for Discipline. There's no spirit -> spell power conversion, no Holy Concentration, and no reason to abuse the 5 second rule. As a discipline priest, the only stats you can even consider stacking are Intellect and Spell Power. Stack Intellect if you're running out of mana and Spell Power if you're not.
(im not picking on you specifically just have two things in it i want to talk about)

2nd bold:
I'm definatly not at the same point in raiding as some of you but I really think haste is being underrated. When I started to raid naxx25, my heroic gear had me at about 400 haste and 1800 sp 300 while casting mp5 18%ish crit with priest buffs, after I geared from naxx25 i had(have for the most part) 2300sp 200haste 500 mp5 while casting and 20%crit. The numbers weren't as high in pre naxx25 but I could fill bars counting on quick consistant numbers with minor mana issues and very little over healing. Now, my casting time is basically "stock", often finding my self being .2 seconds too slow to save someone; but my numbers are also much higher so it takes one Gheal to get someone at 35%hp to 80% instead of having to use a few heals. With that in mind, doesnt the high haste lower heal become more useful than the slow moving high heal? The ability to go "OH SHIT *heal* save.. whew" > "too bad that 20k heal came a split second too late but its a high number"? Me and a fellow preist on the server have been testing on all raid shapes and sizes haste's usefulness (im geared to start ulduar before 3.2 came out hes in full, ulduar 25gear mostly BiS's) We find that stacking stats in order of mp5,haste,sp, crit, int, spirit.. etc etc was more useful than the popular sp, crit, int, mp5, haste etc etc model. lasting longer and being able to get out heals quicker was what we fell in love with. I've seen people say it here "over healing 20%+" thats 20%+ wasted healing, seriously over healing is just wasting mana you dont need anymore numbers if your grumbling about over healing that much, go add some speed and longevity and learn to react faster. cutting back on sp for mp5/haste reduces over healing and gives people with quick reaction times to be able to quickly react for longer stints. I've been in many a pug that the other healer is fully stacked on getting high numbers but cant heal anybody fast enough to keep them alive. My friend in the better gear haste mp5,haste as his top two stacks and he can heal a "over extended"(slow dps) no problem with 10%ish over healed. Which brings me to the question i had about the 1st bold the GCD cap? seems like my friend has no issue with it, I didnt know there was one since he seems to get a penance, renew and gheal in 1.6seconds which would be ALL GCD?. and when i go as Disc i have no issue PW:S to the whole 10man or 16 of the 25man in no more than 2 seconds when i roll back some of my gear to higher haste peices. Dont have as much extensive testing in 3.2 but seems like mp5 is more important than ever, i had to stop and drink in a heroic and was confused lol.
I could definatly see where a balance of the two types of healers would actualy become very useful. lets jsut say its a 10 man and one healer is stacked mp5 haste other sp crit.(i know this doesnt really matter in a 10man this idea would make more sense ina 25man setting but for simplicity sake..) but the haste guy can easily keep the tank alive and make sure no body "oh shit monent /dies" then the other guy tops everyone off the entire raid with a CoH and some flash heals, he can heal more obviously but hed dump out his mana with out slightly pausing in between casts. Also to my understanding healing in ulduar and the new colisiuem stuff you dont have time to wait for a 1.3 second Gheal and PoH is basically obsolete now hardly ever crits and takes too long, its possible to get the same amout of healing for less mana and less casting time with a CoH

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Old 08/06/09, 7:42 AM   #669
Starfire
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Night Elf Priest
 
Dragonblight
I am sure others have reported you, I haven't. But for the love of god, learn to use paragraphs.

Heroism is the only known way to lower the GCD below 1 second. Some spells/abilities are off the GCD, granted none of those you listed.

You can cast your spells faster than the GCD, however you cannot chain them faster. For example, you could theorethically under some mythical effect/buff cast a Flash Heal in .1 seconds, but the game will not let you begin casting your second Flash Heal until after 1 second has passed.

If you're that worried about heal sniping, start using PWS more often and make sure you're using the PWS glyph. Now, once you start using PWS haste and crit become near useless, since they don't affect the spell. Disc priests excel at using PWS, it's our strength.

Sure we have Improved Flash Heal, but if you want to raid heal so badly with whack-a-mole Flash Heal, I'd suggest you go Holy, pick up all the talents in the world to give you the beefy Flash Heals, Serendipity and CoH. Sure Discipline's Flash Heal costs less mana, but Holy improves the throughput of the Flash Heal and has Improved Holy Concentration to increase mana regeneration. Not to mention you get Surge of Light for instant cast Flash Heals.

Prayer of Healing is NEVER obsolete. Even in the darkest days of 2.3 and 2.4, Prayer of Healing always had its uses compared to Circle of Healing.

Deconstructor XT for example, when Tantrum is casting, all 5 people are going to take damage. Casting Flash Heal would be inefficient since you would have to cast 5 Flash Heals taking at least 5 seconds (but realistically, lets say 8 seconds) or you could cast Prayer of Healing taking 1.6-2 seconds. Which do you cast? The latter of course, and it is cheaper mana-wise as well.

As another example you can use Prayer of Healing pre-emptively if you know damage is incoming -- and since it's such a joke fight I am sure I am not breaking rules here >.> -- the first boss in Crusader's Coliseum does a Stomp with a cast time. You can cast Prayer of Healing on the melee group while the boss is casting Stomp.

(Also, why the hell did you decide to talk about the second point first and then the first point second?)

Originally Posted by arison View Post
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

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Old 08/11/09, 3:17 AM   #670
htordeux
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Dwarf Priest
 
Vol'jin (EU)
calcul regen mana patch 3.2

Le boudoir d'Erudith - Regenv2

shows that intell > spirit in raid 25 conditions

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Old 08/11/09, 7:37 AM   #671
Jackalhealer
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Terokkar
Greater Heal as Discipline?

Originally Posted by constantius View Post
Discipline: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

VI.b) Raiding as Discipline

Q: What spells should I typically be using?

Tank Healing: PW:S, Penance, Flash Heal, PoM and occasionally Greater Heal. Penance on the cooldown keeps up Grace, and the rest is details. Always keep a Weakened Soul debuff on your tank if you took Renewed Hope to keep your crit rates high. Ideally, use the new GCD-based PW:S to keep up Borrowed Time if you're in a lull. A lot of the Ulduar bosses hit very very hard, but very slowly as well. If your tank is keeping up a dodge string, use your GCDs to shield people around you, so you have Borrowed Time up when the hit finally comes. Obviously pre-stack PW:S and PoM on anything you have the chance to, as mitigating 10k from a 40k hit means your tank lives, instead of gibs.
Why do discipline priests keep specing in Divine Fury? I understand it with an offensive PvP build, but Greater Heal is the only benefit from 5 talent points. Relocating these 5 points to 2/2 Healing focus and 3/5 Spell Warding would benefit the average active raider much more during raids where there is raid aoe damage in the sense of survivability and ability to complete casts with less knock back (potentially saving a raid). I noticed your tank healing rotation didn't even include Flash Heal, even though your suggested spec includes 3/3 in Improved Flash Heal. I don't know the math well enough to avoid a mathtastic smack down, but it's my personal belief that spamming Flash Heal when PW:S, Penance, and PoM are all on CD is by far the best option.

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Old 08/11/09, 8:44 AM   #672
Elimbras
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Dwarf Priest
 
Eitrigg (EU)
Originally Posted by Jackalhealer View Post
Why do discipline priests keep specing in Divine Fury? I understand it with an offensive PvP build, but Greater Heal is the only benefit from 5 talent points. Relocating these 5 points to 2/2 Healing focus and 3/5 Spell Warding would benefit the average active raider much more during raids where there is raid aoe damage in the sense of survivability and ability to complete casts with less knock back (potentially saving a raid). I noticed your tank healing rotation didn't even include Flash Heal, even though your suggested spec includes 3/3 in Improved Flash Heal. I don't know the math well enough to avoid a mathtastic smack down, but it's my personal belief that spamming Flash Heal when PW:S, Penance, and PoM are all on CD is by far the best option.
Flash heal is really useful for tank-healing, I think that nearly no-one is presently contesting it.
The use of great heal is more discussed : read the last few pages of this thread.
The main reason to use divine furry specced great heal is that it is more hps than flash heal (about 20% more).
The main reason not to use it is that it's less hpm than improved and glyphed flash heal, and takes a longer time to cast.
I personnally like to use it in several "not frequent" situation, precisely for its slow hitting high hpm nature.

This is especially true because the other options are not really useful for me currently : we have fade for adds aggro, there is not a lot of fights with aoe pushbacks, and I haven't really strated hard modes, so I don't really need Spell Warding.

Finally, one advantage of it is when I want to dps, either for daylies, or to help dps in special raid fights (XT heart mode, Razzorscale landing in P1, etc.), or in heroics when I have nothing else to do. It's not needed, but it is a little bit more fun for me.

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Old 08/11/09, 9:43 AM   #673
tedv
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That text is simply out of date. I'm pretty sure nearly all high end raiding priests now take 5/5 Spell Warding and 0/5 Divine Fury. If you take Divine Fury, there are a few situations where Greater Heal is slightly better than Flash Heal, but it's just not worth the points. These situations come up perhaps once every two or three fights. In contrast, -10% spell damage taken matters in every fight in the zone.

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Old 08/11/09, 12:31 PM   #674
RootBreaker
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Detheroc
Originally Posted by caladein View Post
Well, they changed Glyph of Power Word: Shield criticals to proc Divine Aegis (bugged to only shields cast on self right now). I can't think of anything else he could be referring to.

That's not a huge change as GoPW:S hasn't gone north of 10% of my total healing even on Mimiron parses.
While I agree that letting GoPW:S proc Divine Aegis is not a huge boost, the glyph itself was my number one heal on our last Freya 3 and Algalon 25 kills at 35% and 52% respectively. Shield spamming is nice on those fights because the consistent raid damage from ground tremor and black hole explosion ensures that each shield will get fully absorbed (and often gives you a multi-proc of rapture). It's especially good because it helps prevent lethal combinations like black hole explosion -> arcane barrage and ground tremor -> lightning lash.

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Old 08/11/09, 4:09 PM   #675
Ellyh
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It should also be mentioned that in bad latency situations GH gains appreciable HPS over flash heal because of how latency interacts with lots of short casts so if as has previously been calculated the numbers are close to start with then GH ends up being greater by a moderate amount once the latency has been factored in. Using quartz and with only moderate haste it's routine for 1/2 my quartz cast bar to be the red latency zone because I raid from NZ and have ~500 latency unavoidably. I could spam my cast key but this is bad for both the keyboard and my health. Divine fury also helps if you want to assist on dps at any point.

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