WotLK Healing Compendium v3.2: Same Old Thing - Page 58

optimuus · 10/05/09, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Daiketsu

But maybe I should have mentioned when I was using Intellect trinkets, I had gemmed pure spell power in every slot. Nobody is saying Intellect > Spell Power. And you are right when you say ToC25 have high levels of tank damage, and with the exception of Faction Champs, the other fights in ToC require me for the most part to be spamming the tanks with heals the entire duration of the encounter. And when spamming heals with the level of raid damage going out, mana is not a "moot issue," it is definitely something to consider when you are MT healing on fights that last anywhere from 4 to 7 minutes.

I had a discussion with another Priests about this in my guild. After some time I told him that I will use 20int gems in every piece of gear I have to prove that you just dont need such huge amounts of mana, even on heavy tankdmg encounter like in ToGC25 or Algalon for example. I got over 40k mana raidbuffed with Int only gems and got like ~2700sp.

I spammed heals on the tank like mad and never dropped below 30k mana and no cooldowns like manafiend or smth.

the next week i switched to my usual sp only gems and showed him that i still dont have any manaproblems with just a raidmanapool of ~32k mana but with about ~3400sp in raids.

the difference in healing done was quite huge . now that i got both solace of the defeated versions, mana is smth i just dont have to care about whatever i have to do. i can improve other stats when i feel i need them.

let pallys go for the all int think :P we dont need it

TheDoctor · 10/06/09, 7:52 AM

Originally Posted by optimuus

I had a discussion with another Priests about this in my guild. After some time I told him that I will use 20int gems in every piece of gear I have to prove that you just dont need such huge amounts of mana, even on heavy tankdmg encounter like in ToGC25 or Algalon for example. I got over 40k mana raidbuffed with Int only gems and got like ~2700sp.

I spammed heals on the tank like mad and never dropped below 30k mana and no cooldowns like manafiend or smth.

the next week i switched to my usual sp only gems and showed him that i still dont have any manaproblems with just a raidmanapool of ~32k mana but with about ~3400sp in raids.

the difference in healing done was quite huge . now that i got both solace of the defeated versions, mana is smth i just dont have to care about whatever i have to do. i can improve other stats when i feel i need them.

let pallys go for the all int think :P we dont need it

Spamming heals on one target as Disc just isn't going to tax your mana pool. Especially considering that for one target PW:S is going to on average regen mana, Penance is mathematically infinitely castable, and if you fill in with PoM/FH you should be able to go for well beyond any current encounter length.

If you don't use PW:S on the raid, PoH on occassion... Then you aren't doing everything for raid survivability that you offer, and thus aren't taxing your mana to the maximum. Granted 40k mana is beyond what is necessary. Though personally I can find use for about every bit of mana I pickup, because as my mana pool grows I use BT'd PoH more often.

pocketmage · 10/06/09, 5:21 PM

@Carnathagia:

While your Int vs Fight Length spreadsheet is interesting, it's a bit of an obfuscation.
It completely ignores HPS and HPM, which is at the heart of stat allocation for healing priests, imo.
How do you qualify your mana/sec?

Playstyle and situation play a huge role, and I have trouble assigning a single value to it all. I prefer RAWR's HPS burst and sustained HPS calculation for such a thing, it's a very handy tool, but I still wouldn't put too much weight into the numbers it produces either. For me at least, it's just a rough eyeball of the effect of gear/gem/enchant swaps. And in game experiences trump it.

Originally Posted by Daiketsu

I have heard the saying "If you're not going oom then [insert regen stat here] is useless" before, and imo that is a very generalized statement which does not hold true for every person during every encounter. I find it hard to use your point about being in full ToGC 25 gear as a benchmark for what I should and should not itemize myself for. Imo I can't just throw up RAWR to find a certain stats importance to me because my own gear, as well as my guild's are always improving, along with encounters changing based on different strats and raid comps.

Oh I am sure every rule has its exceptions, and you can most certainly point to various encounters for this cardinal rule. This is why I favor gemming and enchanting for throughput and fine tuning your sustainibility via trinket swaps depending on first hand experience.

Though, the ToC trinkets sort of make even this level of modification moot.

This all being said, yours and my gear are very comparable, so I'm sure we are seeing close to the same results. Because as you said in an earlier post, "It's not like we have a lot of gear options."

I actually miss the Vanilla days of gear options and down ranking.
Today's options blow by comparison, so I try not to think about it too much. >..>

Carnathagia · 10/06/09, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by pocketmage

@Carnathagia:
While your Int vs Fight Length spreadsheet is interesting, it's a bit of an obfuscation.
It completely ignores HPS and HPM, which is at the heart of stat allocation for healing priests, imo.
How do you qualify your mana/sec?

Playstyle and situation play a huge role, and I have trouble assigning a single value to it all. I prefer RAWR's HPS burst and sustained HPS calculation for such a thing, it's a very handy tool, but I still wouldn't put too much weight into the numbers it produces either. For me at least, it's just a rough eyeball of the effect of gear/gem/enchant swaps. And in game experiences trump it.

I don't see it as intentionally misleading, unless you are trying to use it as a gearing spreadsheet, which it definitely is not. It is a way to quantify the "this is too much int, that is not enough" discussion. See the previous few pages.

Mana/sec will change based on the incoming damage and your mana efficiency. Look at a log parse, see how many spells you cast in a given fight length, and find the number. This will show Intellect as scaling negatively with raid progression, since fight length will go down, incoming damage will go down, and healing effeciency will go up as your raid gears up within a given tier of content.

Caliste · 10/07/09, 8:53 PM

T10 Bonuses are out:

•Item - Priest T10 Healer 2P Bonus - After your Pain Suppression and Guardian Spirit talents expire on your target, they grant your target 10% increased healing received for 10 sec.
•Item - Priest T10 Healer 4P Bonus - Your Flash Heal spell has a 15% chance to reset the cooldown on your Circle of Healing and Penance Spells.

Not sure how I feel about them. I can see myself missing the cd reset the majority of the time. Thoughts?

Edit: I'm holy. Easier to see as disc I think.

Sun_Tzu · 10/07/09, 9:28 PM

Originally Posted by Caliste

T10 Bonuses are out:

•Item - Priest T10 Healer 2P Bonus - After your Pain Suppression and Guardian Spirit talents expire on your target, they grant your target 10% increased healing received for 10 sec.
•Item - Priest T10 Healer 4P Bonus - Your Flash Heal spell has a 15% chance to reset the cooldown on your Circle of Healing and Penance Spells.

Not sure how I feel about them. I can see myself missing the cd reset the majority of the time. Thoughts?

Edit: I'm holy. Easier to see as disc I think.

Even if it were 100% chance to reduce CD on CoH it'd be totally worthless for Holy. At 15% I'm easily bypassing t10 4p.

It's highly unlikely however that there won't be atleast 2 tier pieces worth taking, which might make GS glyph together with the 2p bonus a somewhat worthwhile thing to have, although again it'd be most useful during the kind of fights that tend to negate the GS glyphs usefulness, meaning you're down to a additional 10% more healing on a target after the worst has most likely passed and on a 3min cd. Not terribly useful.

GS does have some potential to be used in tandem with paladins divine plea, in which case you'd be more likely to see the increased uptime. There's also the possibility of stacking 3 Holy priests in a raid chaining GS on tank giving a 100% uptime of atleast 10% increased healing on the tank.

Kashir · 10/07/09, 9:58 PM

Both set bonuses seem pretty terrible in their current state.

2-piece: A 10% healing bonus for 10 seconds, which only applies after the danger moment has passed? A very solid meh. Slightly better for Holy with a 1 minute GS, but still close to negligible.

4-piece: Ok, let's start on a good foot. It could be decent for Disc tank healing, due to high volume FH spam, a relatively long Penance CD, no opportunity requirement (it's never bad to cast Penance on the tank), and easily noticable since you're focussing on a single target and don't have any other procs to worry about.

For Disc raid healing? Useless.

For Holy raid healing? Useless. The only time it's usable is;

* CoH is on cooldown
* You use Flash Heal as your filler heal
* The effect procs
* You notice the proc and react to it in time
* You have valid targets for a CoH

The chances of all those factors aligning are, well, let's just say it would need to be a hell of a lot better than a -3s CoH cooldown proc for me to care about it.

We haven't used Disc Priests on tank healing since 3.1, but if you are regularly doing so then there is at least some redeeming factor to the 4-piece bonus.

Still, looking on the bright side; I enjoy the flexibility of not having to worry about set bonuses in T9. Looks like we can carry that through to T10 as well

Incoherence · 10/07/09, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Kashir

Both set bonuses seem pretty terrible in their current state.

2-piece: A 10% healing bonus for 10 seconds, which only applies after the danger moment has passed? A very solid meh. Slightly better for Holy with a 1 minute GS, but still close to negligible.

I tend to agree with you about the 4 piece, but this one seems interesting.

If you have the glyph and use GS on cooldown, the bonus averages to 1.43% raidwide healing. Granted, the 10 second set bonus might not line up with anything useful, but it's certainly good enough to drop any previous set bonuses (not that the previous set bonuses were particularly inspiring for holy), and if you weren't using the glyph before it should push you over the edge to get it. Certainly will for me.

For discipline, it's not nearly as useful because of the longer cooldown on PS, although it's somewhat unlikely that you won't end up with 2 pieces anyway.

moowalk · 10/08/09, 12:01 AM

Just a reminder that the 1 minute glyphed cooldown on GS is actually a 70 second cooldown since the timer doesn't start until the previous GS lasts its full duration.

Sun_Tzu · 10/08/09, 4:50 AM

Originally Posted by moowalk

Just a reminder that the 1 minute glyphed cooldown on GS is actually a 70 second cooldown since the timer doesn't start until the previous GS lasts its full duration.

Does it actually work like that?

[Glyph of Guardian Spirit]

Now the wording is a bit ambiguous but I've still always assumed that the cd change is applied retroactively, mainly since I'd think 70seconds is a "ugly" number and not something that would have been intentional.

♦ Slackie · 10/08/09, 4:58 AM

GS must fall off without triggering to start the 60 second cooldown.

Taoofss · 10/08/09, 9:10 AM

GS isn't a spell you should be casting on every cool down. As Holy, I will be trying to hold on to the t9 2 Piece for as long as possible while ignoring T10 all together.

Elimbras · 10/08/09, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Carnathagia

From intellect, you determine your total mana pool, total static mana available for use during a fight (I assumed 1 shadowfiend without heroism, 1 mana tide totem, and 1 mana potion) your total regenerated mana (from gear, replenishment, and rapture returns), and then find your time to heal based on a pre-determined mana per second usage (I chose 300 mana/sec based on some spam heavy Twin Valkyr Log analysis). Your intellect soft-cap would be the amount of intellect which provides a fight length longer than you will encounter.

[...]

To do: I didn't find the algebraic formula for determining the maximum fight length based on total mana, but Excel's Goal Seek function worked well to set the difference between available mana per fight and mana used per fight to 0 by varying the fight length. If you can determine that function, feel free. Also, values for mana used per second are varying, so feedback there is appreciated. I would attach the spreadsheet I used, but I don't think that I am allowed.

The closed-form formula is easy : just equate mana used and mana-available (where ManaPool is your buffed ManaPool, ManaStatic is your Mana gains that doesn't depends on your fights lenghts (shadowfiend, manatide, potion, hymns as approximation), MP5_In is your casting MP5 gain, and MP5Out is your mana expenditure (from healing spells), and TTH your Time to Heal :

Mana_Pool + Mana_Static + MP5_In * TTH = MP5_Out * TTH

which leads to
TTH = [Mana_Pool + Mana_Static] / [MP5_Out - MP5_In]

Mokhtar · 10/08/09, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Taoofss

GS isn't a spell you should be casting on every cool down.

This depends a lot on the context, on a fight with a predictable burst where you run the risk of losing the tank you can use it in a cooldown rotation (shield wall, last stand, pain suppression, sacrifice...). On other fights it is perfectly valid to use it every cooldown to increase the healed amount.
Your comment suggests that you are actually skilled enough to be able to use it reactively, saving the tank (or a key player) just in time consistently. I know I am not at that level of skill and I am not sure a lot of players are...

RootBreaker · 10/08/09, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Mokhtar

Originally Posted by Taoofs

GS isn't a spell you should be casting on every cool down.

This depends a lot on the context, on a fight with a predictable burst where you run the risk of losing the tank you can use it in a cooldown rotation (shield wall, last stand, pain suppression, sacrifice...). On other fights it is perfectly valid to use it every cooldown to increase the healed amount.
Your comment suggests that you are actually skilled enough to be able to use it reactively, saving the tank (or a key player) just in time consistently. I know I am not at that level of skill and I am not sure a lot of players are...

Guardian spirit doesn't have to actually absorb a death blow consistently to make it worth casting as a reactive emergency save. You just need to use it on someone who could take lethal damage in the next second or so. GSing a tank who drops to 10% is a good move, regardless of whether they dodge the next hit or not. Similarly, GSing a DPS who drops low is a reasonable move, regardless of whether they're actually targeted with the next random-targeted boss ability.

It's used similarly to the way a druid or shaman uses nature's swiftness.

It's certainly better than using it strictly for the 40% bonus healing on a tank who can survive consistently without the healing bonus.